Peter Schwab - again.

[Gary Shadforth]

I appreciate the knowledgble writers on our Hawk’s Board
here at BigFooty and, generally, I agree with a lot of what has
been written in recent times.

But questionable chat about Peter Schwab as coach begs a
question. Who is more suitable, and I stress the word
suitable, to coach Hawthorn in ‘04?

Wallace, Eade, I think not! Schwabby didn’t have a dummy in
his mouth to spit when the media hounds where on the
doorstep at the clubrooms and his home when he was under
enormous pressure during the ‘03 horror stretch, more than I
can say about some of the posters on this Board.

Wallace and Eade, not-with-standing they are favourite sons
at Hawthorn, and always will be as such because we are
family, spat the dummy at the Dogs and Swans respectivelly.

Okay, Eadie was on the brink of being pushed at the Swans
but he could have fought on in convincing the hierarchy there,
like his eventual successor, Paul Roos (and thousands of supprters), did when the Sydney powers-that-be thought there was someone better around, including Wallace.

Boarders, I’ll get down to it. Here at BigFooty, including some of you who seem to be impatient, please list as coach, other than Peter, who is available and qualified to advance Hawthorn 7 - 8 positions up the ladder, in the immediate season?

 

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Gary Shadforth
Boarders, I’ll get down to it. Here at BigFooty, including some of you who seem to be impatient, please list as coach, other than Peter, who is available and qualified to advance Hawthorn 7 - 8 positions up the ladder, in the immediate season?

Nobody.

Nobody ever.

There isn't a coach in the history of the game (imo) capable of shifting us that much higher up the ladder simply through the fact that we don't have the quality of players in comparission to what other sides (Bris, Port, Adel, Dons, Saints *I expect them to be the big improvers*) etc.

We are mid-rung and our placings indicate that we finish around where our depth of talent is, one of a group of clubs that could probably be a 4-8 side with reasonable draw/injury/luck on our side.

So sorry Gary but I can't work a scenario to that sort of thinking.

What I can offer as an alternative that could have been explored was to say that for the logic offered by some of 'the longer you've been in a job the better you get at it' could apply to several candidates. Eade, Wallace, Judge even under that criteria should all be better now that what they were. Even blokes like R.Shaw, Harvey, Royal that have been around as assitant coaches elsewhere should be definition be seen as capable enough through their apprenticeship periods.

The old 'a coach is only as good as his playing list' is as true now as it ever was. A good coach of course can get that 'extra' bit out of a good list though and be the difference between just a good side and a genuine Premiership contender.

Fwiw I have mis-givings over Schwab more on the consitent inconsistency that the HFC has produced over his four years in charge. I just think there is that vital 'something' missing in his coaching.

No, I don't know what it is, can't put a name to it but I still believe it to be the case.

To replace him as a hypothetical? I'd have gone one of either R.Shaw (who I thought was excellent at the Roys and never given due support at the Crows) or Harvey, whom I admired greatly as a player and shows a very shrewd (imo) football brain.

A definite choice though would have been to have tried for someone 'outside' the HFC (no Wallace, no Eade).

But that is all it is now, a hypothetical.

Schwab, for good or ill, will have two seasons.

I'm very hopeful that he can indeed prove me and those others who have doubts about his abilities proves me wrong.

 

[Pessimistic]

I'm still 'on' re schwab but if we did need to replace, I think Donald McDonald would give it a shake. He could be the 2005 equivalent of Pagan.

And I wouildn't be surprised if Lyon ended up at hawthorn.

Both somewhat untested but if 2004 was a horror hawks and dees could do a lot worse then to just swap coaches.

 

[ROCK22]

ALL I KNOW IS, if Schwab has another shocking year, we must look for a coach outside the club. Possibly a Mark Harvey or Gary O'Donnel.

Certainly wouldn't bother with a Lyon, he doens't have the experience. Wouldn't bother with any of our assistant coaches either, we need new assistants as well if we have another horror season.

 

[ueber1]

I have read with a great deal of interest everyones comments on Peter Schwab.

Let me first of all say that I am a big Peter Schwab fan. I think he is absoloutely the man for the job.

I disagree with the options that have been brought up as alternative coaches.

Robert Shaw. Yes was good at Fitzroy and didn't get any support at Adelaide. Tactically OK, but so is Schwab. Has been in the system long enough and looked past by so many other clubs, that if he was any good, would be somewhere else. A step backwards as far as I am concerned.

Mark Harvey. The only reason Mark Harvey is an assistant coach is because he can no longer play. He is one of the boys. I have seen him out with the Essendon guys and he is more immature than most of the players. Absoloutely not an option.

Donald McDonald. Possibly an option. But not a great strategist. Speaks well to the group, respected by the players - would need a good strategist alongside him. Not great with the media.

I think the biggest problem with the HFC at the moment is not our coaching staff, or our depth (how can you say depth when the BHH have made 2 out of the last 3 GFs?) I think our biggest problem is our top 10 players. Aside from Crawford who is a deadset champ and has carried this club for 5 years look at the following:

Dutchy - really struggling with his body. Shoulders are stuffed now getting soft tissue injuries etc. Look at Wayne Carey to see what 10 years at CHF does to you.

Spider - didn't get enough out of him in his first year. Ill disciplened and also at the age where soft tissue injuries are starting to effect him.

Jon Hay - really doesn't look interested. I think he needs to be rejuvenated by getting him away from full back.

Jade Rawlings - has left for money. I spoke to him at his bucks day (derby) and he spoke like a man who was changing jobs for money.

Ben Dixon - hasn't taken the next step. Clever hff flanker and thats all.

Joel Smith - has had two good years and been great when fit. Probably one of the few top 10 you could pass over the last two years.

Barker - is finished after his OP. Really had one good year and we are paying the price for signing him after this one good year.

Lekkas - has been fantastic. I wrote him off 3 years ago and he has been our most consistent forward since.

Thompson - we need him to get his body right. Need him to take over from Dutchy as our No1 key forward. Isn't there yet.

I would say 4 of these guys (Crawf, Jade, Lekkas and Smith) have earn't a pass mark in the last 2 years. The rest need to lift. If they do this, Schwab will be a genius.

Secondly, apart from the decision to get Hodge, our recruiting has been terrible. We have no young KPP. Brennan is only there this year to see out the second year of his contract. Boyle is raw. Veale is gone and was no good anyway. All the rest of our young guys are midfielders. The loss of McPharlin will really hurt us in the next 5 years.

 

[Ramma]

Ultimately the coach is judged on all of the recruiting, development, success (and lack of it), etc. He will take the plaudits when things are going well, and must accept the responsibility when it is not. To his credit, Schwabby has done that - he is, as I have stated elsewhere, a GREAT statesman and representative of, and for, the club.
However, great statesmen do not necessarily make great leaders.
Terry Wallace COULD be a prospective coach for us, as tactically, he is very sound - his playing lists of the late '90's, imho, were of less ability than ours now, but he led them to 2 PF's.
With a little inside knowledge here, I know Gary Lyon would be VERY interested in taking over the reigns at Hawthorn, but only if the situation was right - he reminds me a little of John Northey in his IR coaching - someone who uses the 'us vs. them' psychology, which may be the branding that COULD help us.
As Gren has stated, Gary, it is all hypothetical and very hard to determine who may or may not be right for us.
Having written all of that, Schwabby has my full support for the next 2 years, but with no results in that period of time, must come the end of his tenure. His improvement, imo, from the latter part of this year tatically (and that is the primary function of the coach on match-day), must continue along with the team's performance.
Let's hope we will be celebrating him in about 10 months time

 

[ueber1]

Originally posted by Ramma
Ultimately the coach is judged on all of the recruiting, development, success (and lack of it), etc.

Agree with this except for the recruiting. Realistically we can't expect Schwabby to monitor young talent outside the AFL. If so then he is out. Good move to get rid of turnbull. Has made some blunders - not least of all Luke Brennan. Daniel Elstone was also another shocker. Not to mention Dent, Hunter, Young, OFarrell etc.

 

[Ramma]

Originally posted by ueber1
Agree with this except for the recruiting. Realistically we can't expect Schwabby to monitor young talent outside the AFL. If so then he is out. Good move to get rid of turnbull. Has made some blunders - not least of all Luke Brennan. Daniel Elstone was also another shocker. Not to mention Dent, Hunter, Young, OFarrell etc.

I would think all good coaches would have a fair amount of impact on who they draft - it is up to Schwabby to determine what sort of players the side needs, and he would then expect the recruiting staff to present the best options available. Otherwise, he is leaving it in the hands of others to determine what players will be in his side - and if that is the case, my opinion would be somewhat lowered.
Do you really think Sheedy, Matthews, etc DON'T know what the calibre, style and even type of person each new draftee/recruit is like?? I would say they would even have had discussions with potential new players, and I would expect the same of Schwabby.
Of course, I may be terribly wrong......

 

[ueber1]

Originally posted by Ramma Do you really think Sheedy, Matthews, etc DON'T know what the calibre, style and even type of person each new draftee/recruit is like?? I would say they would even have had discussions with potential new players, and I would expect the same of Schwabby.

Interesting. You would think so, but realistically, I would expect senior coach would be handfed a lot of his knowledge from recruiting staff. Obviously word would get on the cooneys and raph clarkes etc, but other than those at the draft camp, i would expect senior coaches to rely on others for that info. Obviously senior coach would speak all players, but only after a short list is identified. It would be interesting to know exactly how different clubs go about identifying talent, but i guess that ip belongs to each club.

 

[Ramma]

Originally posted by ueber1
Interesting. You would think so, but realistically, I would expect senior coach would be handfed a lot of his knowledge from recruiting staff. Obviously word would get on the cooneys and raph clarkes etc, but other than those at the draft camp, i would expect senior coaches to rely on others for that info. Obviously senior coach would speak all players, but only after a short list is identified. It would be interesting to know exactly how different clubs go about identifying talent, but i guess that ip belongs to each club.

Absolutely, but that what being a good manager/coach is about - surrounding yourself with people you trust and can rely on, because ultimately, if they muck-up, it still comes back to being your responsibility.
And I bet it's the coach's final decision on WHO they end up drafting, not the recruiting officers - after all, they're the ones on the victory podium on GF day, not the officers!!

 

[ueber1]

OK Gary, in answer to your original question as to who could step up if schwabby got the chop. I think other than Matthews, I can't think of any other recycled coach that could do a better job than schwabby. I think the next step would be an O'Donnell, Lyon, Brereton or another outstanding untried assistant.

 

[tige19]

Everyone is complicating the issue on Schwab, it comes down to results and thats that.
Schwab has done nothing more than give mediocre results for the best part of 4 years, Hawthorn is not a mediocre club so why put up with mediocre results???
Collingwood would not put up with it, Essendon would not put up with it as would Brisbane and as Carlton are showing they wont put up with mediocority.
So why must the club and its supporters be given a crap load of false hope only to be shattered with pathetic results, it has gone on for to long and i cant understand why everyone is accepting it!!!.
We should have sacked Schwab after 2002 on when it was apparent we had a strong list with a host of quality kpp and could do nothing more than be half competive.
Im sorry but Schwab is coaching a good side with no results, i could promise that if Leigh Matthews or even Terry Wallace was in charge of player group for the past 4 season we would have been in finals.
Everyone has to stop with the crap of how well Schwab handled himself during the tough times, how good of a relationshop he has with the players and how much of a nice bloke he is. We HAVE NOT BEEN WINNING GAMES OR PLAYING FINALS they are the facts and this is Schwabs team, he should be held responsible for it.

cheers

 

[saaam]

Originally posted by tige19
We should have sacked Schwab after 2002 on when it was apparent we had a strong list with a host of quality kpp and could do nothing more than be half competive.
Im sorry but Schwab is coaching a good side with no results, i could promise that if Leigh Matthews or even Terry Wallace was in charge of player group for the past 4 season we would have been in finals.
Everyone has to stop with the crap of how well Schwab handled himself during the tough times, how good of a relationshop he has with the players and how much of a nice bloke he is. We HAVE NOT BEEN WINNING GAMES OR PLAYING FINALS they are the facts and this is Schwabs team, he should be held responsible for it.

cheers

Disagree with that first bit Tige19. Schwab had one bad year out of three at the end of 2002. He made progress in 2000 and 2001 (with what were basically Judges teams, imho) then had a shocker in 2002. You can blame injury etc, but the fact is we didn't show progress, injuries or no injuries. 2003 was time to put things right and basically we had the same result as 2002, no progress just more of the 2002 decline.
Agree with your second point, plain and simple, his results have been unacceptable. I do however think the quality of our list ain't all that flash either. Think about it this way, how many of the Hawthorn boys would make the Brisbane starting 18? Not too many I think and they are the benchmark, where we have to get to to win a GF. Now if we look at Collingwood, man for man at our best I think on paper we are more talented and more balanced, we just ain't showing it. I just can't work out why not!
I do think Schwab deserves another go this season, simply because non of the alternatives would do any better NEXT season.
I must say I'm surprised people have mentioned R Shaw and G Lyon etc and nobody has mentioned G Ayres, who in my opinion has a better record than Wallace.

 

[Becker]

I am happy with Schwab at the moment, but I think the next coach should be someone from outside the club. Leigh Matthews is the only ex-Hawk I would be interested in to coach the club.

 

[Gary Shadforth]

Originally posted by tige19

Everyone has to stop with the crap of how well Schwab handled himself during the tough times, how good of a relationshop he has with the players and how much of a nice bloke he is.

tige19, you are entitled to your opinion, but why should we (posters) stop writing their opinions on an interesting topic just because you do not agree with 'everyone' (your word)?

My observation out of listening to, reading articles on the Internet and 'papers, radio, watching TV, talking to the Hawk's supporters and officials at a function before the Gabba game (which was one of the best games I saw up here this year) and again with another group at the Sydney game (another excellent one with great Hawk's tactics) is that Schwabby did 'handle himself' very well. He kept his nerve, was tenacious, and generally did not lay blame on the players.

I got the Impression from Schwabby wanting to retain his position that he feels his learning curve of four years has turned its full circle and he feels he will be a coach to take us into a final four position over the next couple of years.

(IMHO) we have greater depth now in player talent which will help
Schwabby to be in a better position to alleviate problems should there be a sizeable injury list at any one time during the next two seasons. Notwithstanding, as do a lot of others feel, someone is going to have to settle down and be consistent at CHB and CHF.

As for his relationship with the players, it appears to me that it's all very solid. We wouldn't want situations like Eadie had at the Swans, Wallace had at the Dogs and Blight had at St Kilda and I can recall way back at Glenferrie when the general words around the players was that David Parkin was 'too school teacherish for grown footballers'.

Just an opinion, tige19, I hope it's okay with you that I have one.

Cheers, Gary.

 

[saaam]

Originally posted by Gary Shadforth
I got the Impression from Schwabby wanting to retain his position that he feels his learning curve of four years has turned its full circle and he feels he will be a coach to take us into a final four position over the next couple of years.

Gary, as usual a few good points but just picking up on the results expected this year for Schwabby. By all accounts he MUST deliver this season (ie get his team to deliver) but what exactly must be delivered?
I'd say as a minimum I expect finals, anything less and the board have an obligation to us supporters to look at alternative coaches, because the conclusion you logically come to is Schwabby has taken us as far as he ever will. Finals would at least mean some progress on the previous season.
I'd consider a good season to be 14 or more home and away wins, plus a couple of finals.
What I fear most this season, is another speight of soft tissue injuries to key players. To some degree the medicos have as much to do with Schwabbys success or failure as anyone else.
I wonder if Schwab will ask the board what his KRA's are again before the season starts?

 

[Gary Shadforth]

Originally posted by saaam
Finals would at least mean some progress on the previous season.
I'd consider a good season to be 14 or more home and away wins, plus a couple of finals.
What I fear most this season, is another speight of soft tissue injuries to key players. To some degree the medicos have as much to do with Schwabbys success or failure as anyone else.

You have raised some interesting points, saaam, and I concur.

Thanks, Gary.

 

[Young Gun Hodge]

I have read with interest all of the above comments, and most of them have some very valid points. However closest to the mark would be Becker, re Leigh Matthews who I think would be a brilliant coach anywhere. Still I think part of the Hawks problem is that we have had to many "Old Boys" as coaches. Granted some, like Peter Knights were forced upon us by financial constraints, but I think we look at an ex player and think of his sucess as a player and hope that he can turn that into sucess as a coach. Perhaps the rose coloured glasses syndrome! I still admire Peter Schwab and hope like hell that he has some sucess as he deserves it. Just one final thing that we may have over looked is that our most sucessful coach came from outside the club...............Alan Jeans!!!!!!!!!!!
Need I say more.

YGH

 

[Gary Shadforth]

Originally posted by Young Gun Hodge
I have read with interest all of the above comments, and most of them have some very valid points. However closest to the mark would be Becker, re Leigh Matthews who I think would be a brilliant coach anywhere. Still I think part of the Hawks problem is that we have had to many "Old Boys" as coaches.

YGH

Some great interesting comments have come forth on this topic , however, please forgive me, at the risk of being a smart a**e, I remain asking my original question, ‘.... please list as coach, other than Peter, who is available and qualified for the immediate season?’

The key word is AVAILABLE. Irrelevant to my original question are names proffered below:-

L Matthews, the best, but not available.
Garry Lyon, not available too busy in the make-up room at Channel 9.
Gary O’Donnell, unavailable, still contracted to Brisbane.
Dermie, unavailable, busier than Lyon in the same make-up room. Mark Harvey, unavailable still contracted to the Bombers as an assistant. Maybe he is too much of ‘one of the boys’ as ueber1 suggests.
Gary Ayres, he'd be great, but firmly settled in now at the Crows.

Maybe available -

Robert Shaw, certainly not a contemporary coach, done nothing in recent times. (I could imagine a lot of flack flying around amongst supporters if he were
appointed, given the tone of a lot of the discussion on this Board).
Rodney Eade, didn’t impress a lot of Sydney fans.
Terry Wallace, inclined to lose it with his players doesn’t seem to be keen, has media commitments.

What is emerging out of all this is just what I thought, there really IS NO ONE ELSE AROUND who you could call a CONTEMPORARY coach AND I MEAN CONTEMPORARY. Lyon
and Dermie do not qualify, neither of whom have coached before (risky business) and would have to go through a learning curve. e.g; Roos says despite his unanticipated success this year he is still learning at the highest level.

So the point I’m making here is, simply, that there is no one better [AVAILABLE] than Schwabby!

Summing up, fellow Hawks, it looks as though there are no quality coaches obtainable, and added to this, in going back to another thread, in responding to Grendel, there are only two, what Gren calls ‘top-shelf’ players, that have been / are on the market last season’s end, Brown and Stevens.

Summing up further, from what I have just proffered, I feel, we Hawks can think our selves fortunate for what we have got in coaching staff and players when you compare other clubs' lists that finished out of the top four.

Gren, I have pulled my head out of the sand to say all this and I hope I haven’t been too long winded.

Cheers, all, Gary.

 

[BUBBALOUIS]

sorry Gary some good points, but a bit simplistic for mine .... would Peter Shwab fitted your crieria when Ken Judge was coaching? Would Kevin Sheedy fitted you criteria when appointed Essendon coach ... dont get me wrong i am glad Schwabbie has resigned, but to say there is no available person capable of doing a better job is hogwash, at the time Big nose Elliot sacked Brittain, Pagan wasnt officially on the market, so he wouldnt of fitted your criteria either ... Whose to say Brian Royal wouldnt be a better coach? I wouldnt know and thats the point ...

The question should be is Peter Schwab getting the best out of the list of players he has got, if he is then his reappointment is justified, if he isnt, then your original question is irrelevant , because any coaching appointment has an element of risk to it, cheers

 

[saaam]

Originally posted by BUBBALOUIS
The question should be is Peter Schwab getting the best out of the list of players he has got, if he is then his reappointment is justified, if he isnt, then your original question is irrelevant , because any coaching appointment has an element of risk to it, cheers

The question really is can anyone else get more out of this team than Peter Schwab next season ? I don't think so and neither does the board (Dermie included).
I think the point is we can't put anyone (of those AVAILABLE) into Schwabbies role for next season and be reasonably confident they can take us up to for example top 4.
As we all know the clock is well and truly ticking on this Hawthorn team which is why I'm referring to next season.

 

[Dutchy's Gal]

Originally posted by saaam
As we all know the clock is well and truly ticking on this Hawthorn team which is why I'm referring to next season.

I agree.

Look at the 2001 prelim final against Essendon...In hindsight, it wasn't a high quality game. I believe we can play so much better than that now, and our list has improved. Schwab has brought out the best AND the worst out of these players.

So I believe it's time we stop making excuses with the coach and look towards the players. Aside from injuries we need a committed bunch who can continue off a good second half of 2003.

 

[ueber1]

Originally posted by BUBBALOUIS
The question should be is Peter Schwab getting the best out of the list of players he has got, if he is then his reappointment is justified, if he isnt, then your original question is irrelevant ,

Is that what Richmond have been asking for the last 20 years?

I repeat, a good run with injuries and an increased effort from our top 10 players (excluding Crawf who can't get any better) will get us into the top 4. Then we will all be calling Schwab a genius.

 

[Gary Shadforth]

Originally posted by BUBBALOUIS

... dont get me wrong i am glad Schwabbie has resigned, but to say there is no available person capable of doing a better job is hogwash - - -
... Whose to say Brian Royal wouldnt be a better coach? I wouldnt know and thats the point ...

The question should be is Peter Schwab getting the best out of the list of players he has got, if he is then his reappointment is justified, if he isnt, then your original question is irrelevant , because any coaching appointment has an element of risk to it, cheers

BUBBALOUIS parts of your last para is hypothetical. I feel you have missed the point and misinterpreted my question.

I have not said ‘there is no available person capable of doing a better job’. I asked a question of other Boarders ‘ - - - who is available and qualified to advance Hawthorn 7 - 8 positions up the ladder, in the immediate season?

In my summing up I did write, and there’s a difference, ‘- - - it looks as though there are no quality coaches available - - -’ and if you had have taken the latter in the right context, that is, I was referring to the names that had been raised in the posts after I threaded my question.

BUBBALOUIS, with respect, I feel it would have been better for you to have raised Brian Royal’s name in the spirit of my question.

Furthermore, about the question you have put (and you say I 'should' have); ‘ - - - is Peter Schwab getting the best out of the list of players he has got - - - ?’ - gets away from my drift but you
have asked it and I will leave it for others to answer.

Cheers, Gary.

 

[BUBBALOUIS]

ok Gary, fair enough, again i state i am glad Peter Schwab was re-signed, my point being though a question like 'who currently available would take Hawthorn higher up the ladder' to me is impossible to answer (just my opinion).

To say there isnt anyone would be foolish as none of us are privy to coaches game plans, there ability to convey messages etc

To name half a dozen guys is also nonsensical, again for the above reasons...

The example given by another poster of Richmond to shoot down my argument is irrelevant as well, how many coaches to Brisbane go through until they arrived at Leigh Matthews? Robert Walls/John Northey (both who came with high credentials) and Roger Merrett. So an argument could also be put that remaining with the status quo isnt the right thing to do either?

In my opinion, the guys at the club who see the coaches and wannabe coaches first hand are the best to judge.

Sorry if i mistook your original question Ggary, wasnt meant to be a shot at you, just my clumsy way of putting my thoughts across, cheers