Analysis Play Todd Marshall...

[The Hobo]

McKenzie kicked a goal from outside 50 metres so he would have been the better forward switch but we couldn't move him because he's a much better defender than Allir.

Laughable if you think McKenzie kicking one goal from a lay off makes him the better forward option.

 

[backtozero]

Despite that, Westhoff was constantly derided for his lack of consistency and spent long spells of his career with supporters calling for him to be dropped.

And did he get dropped when he deserved to? Because that's all anyone is saying should happen.

 

[El_Scorcho]

And did he get dropped when he deserved to? Because that's all anyone is saying should happen.

Not really

 

[JimmyBC]

Not really

Only started getting dropped late in his career, anyway it's not like Marshall has never been dropped.

 

[TeeKray]

Westhoff had a great work rate, could take big marks, kick freakish goals and was generally a very smart footballer. There's a reason he came from being a mature age draftee with a late pick and ended up playing 280 games.

Reality is Marshall would likely be in line for delisting or a trade if he wasn't a first round draft choice that we now seem to have an escalation of commitment to.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Lowering the bar to Toby Thurstans is just amazing. Thurstans averaged 0.5 goals per game, had 2 seasons where he kicked double figure goals and ended up being moved to the back half.

Marshall needs to be A LOT better than Thurstans to justify his spot in the side.

He is doing a lot better. Probably not the last 2 weeks, but generally he absolutely is.

I specficially picked out Thurstans best season, 2004, where he played every game as a role player in the devestating attacking side. The fact that he wasn't kicking a lot of goals didn't matter, he was a cog in the machine.

The point is, Marshall doesn't have to be a lot better than Thurstans to justify his position in the side. At all. He just needs to continue to play at a level where we're a better side playing with him as a KPF than we are with Ladhams playing 2nd ruck who rests forward, or worse, Jed McEntee playing one out in the goalsquare. Ken has tried all 3 systems and at the moment, we've landed on the 3xKPF system.

I've spent years banging on about this with Butcher, who was a different but overall inferior player. We cost ourselves massively by sacrificing structure to play the players the coach liked in 2014. Was Butcher a great player? No! Did he have glaring issues with a few aspects of his game? Yes! Should we have picked him despite that? Absolutely.

In fact, if we had continued to pick him and backed him in instead of dropping him at every opportunity, he'd probably still be on the list as a solid 200 gamer and leaving Marshall out of the side now when his form dips would be much easier.

 

[JimmyBC]

Westhoff had a ridiculous tank I just want Todd pushing up and delivering inside 50 more he does that better than most of our mids.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Westhoff had a great work rate, could take big marks, kick freakish goals and was generally a very smart footballer. There's a reason he came from being a mature age draftee with a late pick and ended up playing 280 games.

Reality is Marshall would likely be in line for delisting or a trade if he wasn't a first round draft choice that we now seem to have an escalation of commitment to.

He played 280 games because of versatility and running power. I say running power and not workrate, because players with a genuinely great workrate don't drift in and out of games as much as Westy did. When he was tied to a key forward post and given the 1st or 2nd defender he struggled and the team struggled most of the time. If Westhoff had been a genuinely good KPF, he wouldn't have spent half his career roaming or in defence.

That said, he played a lot of his career under the same moronic coach that Todd does. I don't want to slam Westhoff here, my opinion is that he had some elite qualities but effectively had his potential ruined by a coach who didn't know how to get the best out of him.

Delisting Marshall would leave us without a key forward in their 20s.

 

[TeeKray]

I specficially picked out Thurstans best season, 2004, where he played every game as a role player in the devestating attacking side. The fact that he wasn't kicking a lot of goals didn't matter, he was a cog in the machine.

Thurstans was the second tall forward in a forward line that had Tredrea as its first and Lade as the resting ruckman about 50% of the time. In the 2004 analogy, Dixon is Tredrea, Georgiades is Thurstans and Ladhams would be Lade. Aside from a handful of games out of Damon White, there was no genuine third tall forward in that team.

The point is, Marshall doesn't have to be a lot better than Thurstans to justify his position in the side. At all. He just needs to continue to play at a level where we're a better side playing with him as a KPF than we are with Ladhams playing 2nd ruck who rests forward, or worse, Jed McEntee playing one out in the goalsquare. Ken has tried all 3 systems and at the moment, we've landed on the 3xKPF system.

The Jed McEntee thing is a bit disingenous. The alternative to playing either Marshall or Ladhams is to play Dixon and Georgiades as the talls and have some combination of Motlop, Fantasia, Gray, Rozee and Butters at their feet, with SPP as the pressure forward. That's a significant amount of talent that Marshall needs to beat out to make a best 22 when everyone is fit, regardless of any value he might add as a third tall in the structure. At some point, ability wins out over structure when the talent runs that deep and we're already playing two talls anyway.

I've spent years banging on about this with Butcher, who was a different but overall inferior player. We cost ourselves massively by sacrificing structure to play the players the coach liked in 2014. Was Butcher a great player? No! Did he have glaring issues with a few aspects of his game? Yes! Should we have picked him despite that? Absolutely.

Totally different scenario. In 2014 we only had Schulz as a key forward. Butcher was the proposed second tall forward. Again, Georgiades is Butcher in this analogy.

 

[Portology]

Part of this Ladhams v Marshall should include the less tangible, the hard to measure stuff.

This “structure” for Marshall, and for Ladhams maybe his taking more of the second ruck load off Dixon, helping to not wear the bugger out closer to the pointy end of the season. So that he can kick straighter in finals against WCE, for example


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[Willsy10]

I think he is a defender.


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[Power Raid]

He's not even close to last chance saloon you'll have to deal with it just as I'll have to deal with Ladhams.

Ladhams has a confused panic look on his face so often

He needs to relax and compose himself

 

[El_Scorcho]

Thurstans was the second tall forward in a forward line that had Tredrea as its first and Lade as the resting ruckman about 50% of the time. In the 2004 analogy, Dixon is Tredrea, Georgiades is Thurstans and Ladhams would be Lade. Aside from a handful of games out of Damon White, there was no genuine third tall forward in that team.

And despite being the 2nd KPF, Thurstans statistical output was less than what half the board wants Marshall dropped for right now. The point was more about evidencing that a key forward can be good for structure without averaging 15d 7m 2g /game

The Jed McEntee thing is a bit disingenous. The alternative to playing either Marshall or Ladhams is to play Dixon and Georgiades as the talls and have some combination of Motlop, Fantasia, Gray, Rozee and Butters at their feet, with SPP as the pressure forward. That's a significant amount of talent that Marshall needs to beat out to make a best 22 when everyone is fit, regardless of any value he might add as a third tall in the structure. At some point, ability wins out over structure when the talent runs that deep and we're already playing two talls anyway.

Do you think we're too tall? Do you think we'd be a better team if we dropped both Ladhams and Marshall when our fleet of smalls come back?

I'll also note that if you remove the Geelong game where he was KO'd in the first 5 minutes, Marshall has more goals per game in 2021 than any of those players apart from Fantasia. Beats all of them bar Robbie for goal assists. Beats all of them for marks, and all bar Fantasia for marks inside 50. Yes, we have a stack of talented small forwards, but it's hard for a small forward to have an impact when the defence is controlling the aerial battle.

Totally different scenario. In 2014 we only had Schulz as a key forward. Butcher was the proposed second tall forward. Again, Georgiades is Butcher in this analogy.

We named Westhoff up there a lot, but he wasn't very effective when he had a gun key defender on him so he'd switch back.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Part of this Ladhams v Marshall should include the less tangible, the hard to measure stuff.

This “structure” for Marshall, and for Ladhams maybe his taking more of the second ruck load off Dixon, helping to not wear the bugger out closer to the pointy end of the season. So that he can kick straighter in finals against WCE, for example

On the other hand, it's apparent to me that sometimes playing in the ruck helps Chuck get his hands on the footy and work his way into the game a bit.

Today he didn't ruck at all really and had 3 touches to half time. Giving him a run in the ruck in the 1st quarter might have got him going a bit.

As you say it's intangible, but it's not all one way.

 

[chiwigi]

Okay.

Who would you bring into replace him?

I'm not sure why people use Mitch being an absolute gun as a slight on Marshall. We play 3 key forwards. They aren't competing with each other.

It doesn’t really matter is the point.

If it came to a choice between him and Fantasia (for example), I’ll go Fantasia every time.
I’d also pick Ladhams ahead of him to give Lycett a rest.

He’s a totally pointless tall (well 1 point to be fair).

Damn, I’d even give Hayes a go, the output couldn’t get much lower.

So basically anyone that’s not Fredericks.

 

[Portology]

On the other hand, it's apparent to me that sometimes playing in the ruck helps Chuck get his hands on the footy and work his way into the game a bit.

Today he didn't ruck at all really and had 3 touches to half time. Giving him a run in the ruck in the 1st quarter might have got him going a bit.

As you say it's intangible, but it's not all one way.

so claim that marvellous last quarter shimmy for Ladhams's "intangible contributions" list

 

[Hong-Kong Phooey]

I think he is a defender.


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A agree, but too similar to AA

 

[Igavemyloveachicken]

Laughable if you think McKenzie kicking one goal from a lay off makes him the better forward option.

In comparison to Allir who didn't make the distance from about 35 metres out when he had his shot at goal. Now I know why you are a Hinkley supporter, you both have no idea.

 

[The Hobo]

In comparison to Allir who didn't make the distance from about 35 metres out when he had his shot at goal. Now I know why you are a Hinkley supporter, you both have no idea.

I've seen Marshall not make the distance from about the same spot. Not sure what your point is.

 

[Papa G]

This is hard to explain, but when marking Marshall seems to get into position a split second too early and hold that position in the air, almost floating. It gives the defender more time to spoil. He doesn't power through it. His timing seems off. Even when going back with the ball he seems to float opening himself up to be cleaned up.

 

[Igavemyloveachicken]

I've seen Marshall not make the distance from about the same spot. Not sure what your point is.

McKenzie is an elite, accurate and long kick that can out body his opponent and mark well. The job he did on Max King yesterday was enormous.
If you think that Allir Allir is a better option than McKenzie for a quick switch of roles up forward then I disagree. McKenzie couldn't be switched because he's a better 1:1 defender than Allir Allir.
As this is a Todd Marshall thread then I'll leave it at that.

 

[PowerBaz]

This is hard to explain, but when marking Marshall seems to get into position a split second too early and hold that position in the air, almost floating. It gives the defender more time to spoil. He doesn't power through it. His timing seems off. Even when going back with the ball he seems to float opening himself up to be cleaned up.

Needs to stick his arms out like George.

 

[Del165198]

Every time there is a contest Marshall seems to lose the ball and look the other way, before spinning around to try and find it. This gives his opponent the split second they need to get away easily. It's like he closes his eyes at the point of impact or something so has no idea what the ball is doing

 

[MrChow]

I think Marshall needs more AFL games to improve. He is only 22, and under 50 games.

A couple more years in the gym, and working on his body strength and endurance and repeat running will improve him greatly.

At the moment, I think Ken’s game plan and kick in strategy is because he doesn’t actually trust that Marshall, Georgiades (and Lycett/Ladhams) will win 1 on 1 pack marks down the field. So big packs of players just bringing the ball to ground is good enough. The annoying thing about this (a catch 22) is it doesn’t help Marshall and Georgi improve as marking players, teach them how to get in good positions) nor give them confidence to clunk marks.

What we all want is to trust Marshall will win 60 percent of 1 on 1s - so for him to have confidence leading to the open side of the ground - but to be a threat so a key defender follows him (creating more space) - Both endurance for the running for no reward, or beating an opponent back to the forward 50 improves his game massively.

His strength is actually his field kicking - so up the ground kicking into the fifty suits him. A CHF roll works. Also just getting short hit ups, up the ground would help him get more involved.

Just needs more games, strength, and endurance.



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[backtozero]

Every time there is a contest Marshall seems to lose the ball and look the other way, before spinning around to try and find it. This gives his opponent the split second they need to get away easily. It's like he closes his eyes at the point of impact or something so has no idea what the ball is doing

He flies for contests knowing that he's going to get crunched. I think its a sign that he knows he doesn't have a physical presence and that's why I think he's not a KPF. His only attribute is getting separation. He will never ever be a pack crasher.