Player Review vs WCE

[Chilli Con Incarnate]

I don't see why not liking Harry's form or new position makes me hate him. He's a legend! He used to be one of my most exciting players to watch. I don't know what changed but he lost his spark, he seemed easily out matched all of a sudden. He did play well against Sydney and showed his true class however I don't like him up on the wing, I just think there are better wing-men in the team. I am more than happy to be proved wrong however and hope can recapture his best form (which for me is as a rebounding defender). I just don't think he has it yet. Doesn't mean I hate him.

Also people are allowed to disagree with coaches. Yes they have more of an idea but that doesn't mean people aren't allowed to have opinions. The history of sport is littered with coaching mistakes, coaches can be wrong too.

 

[Markfs]

Also people are allowed to disagree with coaches. Yes they have more of an idea but that doesn't mean people aren't allowed to have opinions. The history of sport is littered with coaching mistakes, coaches can be wrong too.

That's a good point. Coaches can be wrong......but if you have choose between the advice of someone from the forum or the match committee which consists of the coach, the assistant coaches coaches and the football manager, I know which one that I would be taking.

 

[KJpie]

Coaches can be wrong......but if you have choose between the advice of someone from the forum or the match committee which consists of the coach, the assistant coaches coaches and the football manager, I know which one that I would be taking.

Depends on the club?

There are a few clubs that have been managed and coached so poorly over the years; maybe there are a BF member or 2 that would put them to shame.

 

[Dundalis]

"This post is rubbish." - of course it is, you said so. It must be rubbish then.
"Most people criticizing O'Brien itt aren't saying he be dumped for round 1".- Some are saying that he should be traded or dumped off the list. I think Harry would prefer to be dropped for round 1.

"You mention that the keeping him in the side for most of 2012 is some kind of endorsement from the coaching staff".- Actually, I said that the Copeland trophy placing was an endorsement from the coaching staff.

"Finishing 8th in the Copeland is not that great in this context, especially for a senior at peak age who plays on the half back flank". - well 8th isn't too bad for a half back.

1. Dayne Beams, 205 votes
2. Scott Pendlebury, 170
3. Dane Swan, 147
4. Steele Sidebottom, 133
5. Nick Maxwell, 96
6. Darren Jolly, 94
7. Jarryd Blair, 91
8. Harry O'Brien, 88
9. Travis Cloke, 86
10. Ben Reid and Dale Thomas, 67

I know Nick is a half back but he's the captain. He should be better than Harry. Actually it looks like the guys above him are midfielders. I would expect midfielders to do well at the Copeland, but what would I know? Evidently, 8th is a pretty lame result for a half-back.

"I'm getting irritated at anyone who questions O'Briens form automatically being branded a "Harry hater"" I find that surprising. I've posted in the forum for a while now and I would say that Harry is mostly ignored. When I do see a post, it has always been someone criticising him. I havent seen someone branding Harry haters previously. If I had, I wouldnt have repeated the thread.

As for the bit about Harry not being an automatic selection, you can go through every post that I've made in the forum for the last 3? years and you wont see one where I have told the world what the team should be. I laugh at most of them, but I understand that some people find it fun to try to predict what the match committee decides. And you wont see one statement from me saying that a certain player is a certainty for selection for for being dropped. Once again, I smile at the people who like to make those statements. My only desire is to get the best 22 players assembled so that Collingwood wins the premiership this year and for the next 10 years. I want total domination and I believe no player should be spared scrutiny by the match committee. However, that doesnt mean that I think Collingwood players should be dismissed as some kind of disposable part in a machine. They deserve to be spoken of respectfully, even when they are out of form or not up to the required standard. That even goes for someone like Harry who is a little different from your usual suburban footballer.

Why? They are football players that get paid good money. If they aren't earning that money with their performances on the field, why should they be treated positively? Why should they get treated like a bunch of princesses when they play like shit?

If you don't perform your role in your job, you don't get praised. You get the arse. The analogy you gave is perfectly apt IMO, it is like a machine. Well oiled it runs smoothly. When parts don't work as well as they should it starts to fall apart. Either you try and fix the part or you try and get it replaced. It's pretty much as simple as that. If Harry isn't performing, piss him off and get someone in who is. Obviously failing that you have to keep him in the side which reduces/dilutes the overall performance level. Hopefully this year we have good competition for spots in the backline, because we certainly didn't have that last year.

 

[Markfs]

Why? They are football players that get paid good money. If they aren't earning that money with their performances on the field, why should they be treated positively? Why should they get treated like a bunch of princesses when they play like shit?

If you don't perform your role in your job, you don't get praised. You get the arse. The analogy you gave is perfectly apt IMO, it is like a machine. Well oiled it runs smoothly. When parts don't work as well as they should it starts to fall apart. Either you try and fix the part or you try and get it replaced. It's pretty much as simple as that. If Harry isn't performing, piss him off and get someone in who is. Obviously failing that you have to keep him in the side which reduces/dilutes the overall performance level. Hopefully this year we have good competition for spots in the backline, because we certainly didn't have that last year.

Well I suppose thats the difference between a club that is winning premierships and being successful and clubs that go through the motions and just turn up every year so that their people can pick up their paycheques.

 

[loki04]

The trouble with what you say here is Harry's playing on and breaking lines is really one of the strengthes of his game. I would contend that he doesn't often get caught doing this even when he looks to have taken off from a risky position. Much more often the result is an opposition taken by surprise and Collingwood placed in an attacking position. It is higher risk higher reward stuff but you seem to be forgetting the frequent good results Harry's run's produce. That he does it often and with good effect means he almost certainly has the coaching staff encouraging him to do this.

I think a lot of the Harry knockers forget the coaches must back Harry's style because his place in the team has not been in question for many seasons

He more often then not over the last few seasons has run himself into trouble and when he doesn't he bombs the ball in to no advantage.

Coaches obviously feel his run and carry is needed despite it or we have no one else as good in the role.

Look at Seedsmans game on the weekend he also broke the lines off HB and was able to hit up leading targets, kick to space for them to lead onto and pin points targets inside 50.
He took on the game and if he was corralled by 2-3 players he would dispose of it and not try get past all 3 like Harry has been doing, he was effective in 10 and 11 at it but teams know he will just keep trying to get around players even in 3v1 situations so they are on to him like fly's on shit.

Sometimes he needs to just do the simple things to mix it up more, he needs to improve his disposal to hit up targets and less bombing ie more Seedsman/Young less Maxwell when disposing of the pill.


This is not to say he isn't in our best 22 or that he is a poor player rather he is doing things that are stupid and needs to realise when to break and go and when he should just dispose of the ball to a player in a more advantageous position.

 

[Quicky]

I think Seedsman has played himself into the 22. I don't think that necessarily means that Harry misses out as a result.

 

[Gone Critical]

I think Seedsman has played himself into the 22. I don't think that necessarily means that Harry misses out as a result.

I agree. Seedsman looks like he has stepped up a lot in 2013 which young players do. Plenty of room for Harry and Seedsman round 1 and the good thing is both will need to perform to keep their spots. That is what is looking good at Collingwood this year.

I think the squeeze will be on Johnno most of the established backline runners. Fitting in Young as well puts pressure on spots. Then there will be Russell who is hoping to kick start his career and will find there is a big queue of players in front of him. Bottom line of these discussions is Collingwood has depth

 

[Gone Critical]

He more often then not over the last few seasons has run himself into trouble and when he doesn't he bombs the ball in to no advantage.

Coaches obviously feel his run and carry is needed despite it or we have no one else as good in the role.

Look at Seedsmans game on the weekend he also broke the lines off HB and was able to hit up leading targets, kick to space for them to lead onto and pin points targets inside 50.
He took on the game and if he was corralled by 2-3 players he would dispose of it and not try get past all 3 like Harry has been doing, he was effective in 10 and 11 at it but teams know he will just keep trying to get around players even in 3v1 situations so they are on to him like fly's on shit.

Sometimes he needs to just do the simple things to mix it up more, he needs to improve his disposal to hit up targets and less bombing ie more Seedsman/Young less Maxwell when disposing of the pill.


This is not to say he isn't in our best 22 or that he is a poor player rather he is doing things that are stupid and needs to realise when to break and go and when he should just dispose of the ball to a player in a more advantageous position.

I think you are using selective memory here. Harry's run is still an effective offensive weapon off the backline and I don't believe he has been worked out by opposition terams and exploited. Not that he doesn't ever muck it up but you need to include the times when he effectively breaks up the game as he did in the prelim if you want a balanced argument about this part of his game.

 

[forwardflanker]

I think you are using selective memory here. Harry's run is still an effective offensive weapon off the backline and I don't believe he has been worked out by opposition terams and exploited. Not that he doesn't ever muck it up but you need to include the times when he effectively breaks up the game as he did in the prelim if you want a balanced argument about this part of his game.

You can't accuse us from having selective memory and then completely ignore the many times we got exposed in defence last season by the oppositions medium and small forwards. It was an issue v Carlton when we got pumped and it was a huge issue everytime we played Hawthorn. O'Brien is not the only one to blame but he is a significant part of the problem. It's also a little hypocritical saying we have selective memory when the entire focus of your argument that O'Brien is a counter attacking weapon seems to be based on one game from last season - even if it was a preliminary final.

I think this season we have a lot more options back there with the real surprise packet being Seedsman. He's definitely a player we should be getting as much game time into as possible this season because his kicking and decision making is elite and if he becomes a consistent weekly performer he's be a considerable upgrade on O'Brien as an attacking half back. Ben Johnson also shouldn't be discounted, he missed most of 2012 through injury but unlike Didak, his injury should be something he can recover fully from. I rate the BJ as a better accountable defender on small forwards than O'Brien and in the past has given near as much run on the rebound. The last option is Russell. I probably rate him higher than most on this board, i think it was 3 seasons ago he managed to turn from one of the worst players in the comp to being a really effective rebounding defender. He's a good size, strong, fast and very occasionally a good kick , but i really think he was a great pick up for us and can see him being very important if the cards fall right.

So the way I see it is that Seedsman's potential and form demands selection from round 1. Then it becomes a toss up b/w O'Brien, Johnson, Russell that should largely come down to match ups and the general balance of the backline however bear in mind that Clinton Young is clearly going to be best 22 which makes the need for another attacking half back less important, therefore the last defending spot should be more about defending ability than attacking which makes Russell and Johnson more attractive selections imo.

 

[Kirby]

^^ I suspect that the "selective memory" remark is in response to Loki saying that more often than not that when Harry takes them on he stuffs it up. That is total and utter crap and surely no one believes that.

 

[loki04]

^^ I suspect that the "selective memory" remark is in response to Loki saying that more often than not that when Harry takes them on he stuffs it up. That is total and utter crap and surely no one believes that.

over the last few Seasons he has increasingly either ran into trouble or bombed it in to no advantage to our forward's. If you think this is total utter crap I'd suggest you open your eyes next time you watcha game. He provides run and does do good things but the amount of times he runs into trouble or does the Maxwell Kick is too often for a break the lines HBF and it is easy for him to fix.