Analysis "Players Hitting Targets"

[Robroy22]

Are we over analysing this particular skill or indeed "putting the cart before the horse". Watch any of the elite kicking sides (Hawks, Cats, Dockers) and you see the skill broken down into two basic contexts. They either kick the ball 15-20m to an oncoming player or they pump it 40-50m quickly to a space. Furthermore these "elite kicking sides" tend to have specialist kickers that are very, very good at executing one or the other of these skills and even rarely certain players that can accomplish both.
But are their kicking skills really that much better than everyone else's or is it their game plan that allows every player to feel comfortable delivering the ball because they know where to kick at any time of the game? Are they "better kicks" because they can kick to an area...and know someone else will get there to collect the mark.
In 2010-11 Collingwood players often kicked over the opposition defenders heads to allow our forwards to drop on their opponents. Were we that much better kicks back then or did we just have the game plan imprinted well enough for every player to feel confident enough to accomplish the task?

The elite kicking teams probably have 1-2 more "better kicks" than us per team but they use them so much more efficiently. My main point is that we have to have our leading patterns better ingrained, we have to protect and encourage our better kicks (Pendles, Sidebottom, Elliot, Young, Broomhead etc) to use their skills and we have to kick to space more often rather than trying to pin point a "perfect pass" to a player often guarded by 2 opponents (Cloke).

Is it better kicking? Better decision making? Better leading patterns and management (blocking, screening, dummy leading) or is it a combination of all of it? Hitting a target isn't just about being a great kick.

 

[Markfs]

over analysing?.....is that possible?

 

[mike123]

I find it hard to single out Hawthorns bad kicks weather its easy to single out ours.

 

[Maggie5]

Surely good kicking can be depended on what pressure is being applied?

 

[THATSGOLD]

I don't mind seeing a ball kicked to our advantage doesn't always mean "hit the target" or player but if its out in front or the player is able to run on to it thats fine. Its the ones that go straight to the opposition that piss us off. IE Turnovers!

 

[Woods List Clogger]

over analysing?.....is that possible?

Better than never analysing

 

[THATSGOLD]

I find it hard to single out Hawthorns bad kicks weather its easy to single out ours.

We have some poor kickers

Adams- I'll wait and see but so far disappointing.
Greenwood- terrible kick I hope he handballs more.
Crisp- Only from what I've seen at Brisbane.
That man in your avatar has been known to kick it to a few Hawthorn blokes.
Sinclair has his howlers.
Young is a penetrating kick but short can make dumb decisions.


Another thing that annoys me is when we kick it to a standing player and it gets chopped off. Never kick to a man just standing still. IMO. I saw this a bit in 2014.

 

[Robroy22]

I find it hard to single out Hawthorns bad kicks weather its easy to single out ours.

Lake, Spangher, Puopolo, even Hill and Smith can be hit and miss. Hale is an ok set shot but usually kicks up and unders....there are a few ordinary kicks in every side. The good teams just hide them better and use better options.

 

[Pedro]

Lake, Spangher, Puopolo, even Hill and Smith can be hit and miss. Hale is an ok set shot but usually kicks up and unders....there are a few ordinary kicks in every side. The good teams just hide them better and use better options.

I agree with this. Shiels is not great. Brad Sewell was only just. Birchall is a nuffy unless he's on his left. Their game plan enables them to hide it a bit. They are in perpetual motion. They run patterns that enable them to find free targets. They are very good at it. On top of that, yes they do have plenty of blokes who do kick it well.

 

[mike123]

Lake, Spangher, Puopolo, even Hill and Smith can be hit and miss. Hale is an ok set shot but usually kicks up and unders....there are a few ordinary kicks in every side. The good teams just hide them better and use better options.

Hill and Smith are as much hit and miss as Sidebottom and Young.

 

[Ricky90]

I firmly believe our kicking is no better or worse than any other team out there - generally speaking that is (a few percent here and there notwithstanding).

My train of thought is that we just do not create enough space through hard work. If you create the space, you're leading, doubling back, repeat leading, doubling back, filling holes, re-leading etc. You create space, create separation, fill the space and create more space. If our guys forward of the ball work hard enough with their running patterns, we don't need to hit targets but to just put the ball in front, to their advantage and we've got possession closer to goal. From there it's play on, which is a much quicker game and requires more instinct.

I really enjoy seeing players drop the footy five or ten metres short of the lead especially through the centre square and wings (inside 50 I'd much rather see a lead hit on the chest). It just means we're creating the space to lead into, creating the separation on our opponents on the lead, conservatively delivering the ball to the lead, and then most likely have runners who have also created space and separation. It's a fluent game one without marks sometimes and I think a lot of the time we get really caught up on hitting targets.

That's not to say hitting a target is a bad thing, but if you disregard trying to put the ball to advantage and nail your target lace out, you're much more likely to overkick the ball and end up turning it over. Kick to advantage at all costs, even if that means not taking the mark.

In short it's always about working hard with your running patterns to get into open space. Then you can have the ball lace out or on the bounce, it won't matter. You create your own space or you allow your own pressure. It's up to the players.

 

[ace andy]

I firmly believe our kicking is no better or worse than any other team out there - generally speaking that is (a few percent here and there notwithstanding).

My train of thought is that we just do not create enough space through hard work. If you create the space, you're leading, doubling back, repeat leading, doubling back, filling holes, re-leading etc. You create space, create separation, fill the space and create more space. If our guys forward of the ball work hard enough with their running patterns, we don't need to hit targets but to just put the ball in front, to their advantage and we've got possession closer to goal. From there it's play on, which is a much quicker game and requires more instinct.

I really enjoy seeing players drop the footy five or ten metres short of the lead especially through the centre square and wings (inside 50 I'd much rather see a lead hit on the chest). It just means we're creating the space to lead into, creating the separation on our opponents on the lead, conservatively delivering the ball to the lead, and then most likely have runners who have also created space and separation. It's a fluent game one without marks sometimes and I think a lot of the time we get really caught up on hitting targets.

That's not to say hitting a target is a bad thing, but if you disregard trying to put the ball to advantage and nail your target lace out, you're much more likely to overkick the ball and end up turning it over. Kick to advantage at all costs, even if that means not taking the mark.

In short it's always about working hard with your running patterns to get into open space. Then you can have the ball lace out or on the bounce, it won't matter. You create your own space or you allow your own pressure. It's up to the players.

Tell that to Sinclair and Adams who have no one around them and send it 5 meters over a teammates head that was in plenty of space.

If people want to compare skills with Hawthorn well they have arguably the game plan that requires the most skill. Even under tonnes of pressure they are finding small targets all the time. Where as other teams use contested ball after long kicking to win hawthorn don't. I really don't know how anyone can say they aren't much better than us at kicking.

I get that every team will have a few players that aren't great at kicking. but our proportions are all wrong. We have very few excellent kicks. In fact most of our team is made up of OK kicks and a few terrible kicks.

Where as hawthorn has far more excellent kicks, a few more good kicks and hardly anyone who basically can't kick at all.

 

[Black_White]

Our kicking would be excusable if we were always under pressure.
But have a look at the 2014 tapes and the amount of times we missed wide open, on their own, targets when the kicker was not under pressure.
Our kicking skills are my biggest disappointment in a Buckley lead team. How is it that he has not been able to pass on the skill that he was elite at?
Didn't he also invent the drill to assess kicking skills for potential draftees?
Valid questions I believe.

 

[cleomenes]

I believe that the problem is one of confidence. In 2011, most of the same players as were on the field in 2014 were accurate field kicks. In 2014, our players lost the confidence they would hit targets, and that immediately made the leads less committed, and therefore the passes worse. This is a positive feedback loop. Each step in the wrong direction creates conditions for the next negative step. This is the real area in which our coaches have to generate improvement. The skills, I am certain, are there. Some players are better than others, but this is a truism that is not really important. If we can keep something approaching the best side on the field, then most of the problems will go away.

 

[Markfs]

Better than never analysing

good point...we need to get to the bottom of this..

 

[PTpie]

I think "hitting targets" is less important than "kicking to advantage".

I couldn't care less if C Young can roost the ball 60+ metres and land it in a shopping trolley. I want him to kick it 60+, on the run while being chased and put it to T Clokes' advantage, so he can do what he does best. The onus is on the kicker to put the ball somewhere the intended recipient has the best chance of gaining possession or forcing a stoppage. The recipient needs to react to the kick in play, NOT what they expect. We were poor on both counts in 2014.

IMO kicking to advantage demands more skill than simply hitting a target. You need excellent decision making, trust in yourself and your team mate and spatial awareness as well as being accurate.

I was so frustrated watching Cloke, Elliot, White, Swan and Witts/Grundy lead all game only to have the ball dropped on their head with 837563875 seconds of airtime (seriously, sometimes it looked like slow motion) and get mobbed by 3 opposition defenders. Our players kicked AT the man, not TO the man (or space) and we looked shite as a result.

I think it all came about as we rarely had structure forward of the ball and lost in the midfield most times. Therefore we lacked composure when going inside 50 as a result.

Hopefully another year of development and a good run with injuries will allow us to maintain structure and our forward line will evolve into more than "kick it to Cloke".

 

[jmac70]

I find it hard to single out Hawthorns bad kicks weather its easy to single out ours.

You are still taking the weather with you.

 

[Captivating]

Lake, Spangher, Puopolo, even Hill and Smith can be hit and miss. Hale is an ok set shot but usually kicks up and unders....there are a few ordinary kicks in every side. The good teams just hide them better and use better options.

Our players are lazy and stop running to create an easy option. Hawthorn players keep moving and get themselves into good position for their teammates, be it through footpass to handball.

Because we are stagnant, kicks are usually to a contest or under pressure.

 

[JimBob10]

Hawks have 15-16 good kicks in their best 22, we would be lucky to have 4 (Pendlebury, Sidebottom and maybe Elliott, Seedsman & Fasolo

 

[loki04]

Hill and Smith are as much hit and miss as Sidebottom and Young.

Yeah they are not poor kicks.

Hawks have very few genuinely poor disposers, we have about 6 poor and then a bevy of average with a few good kicks then the odd elite kick.

Hawks game plan also does help mitigate as they as a team are very good at making space for the kicker to kick to and are very good at getting a lead to hit that spot.

 

[loki04]

Our players are lazy and stop running to create an easy option. Hawthorn players keep moving and get themselves into good position for their teammates, be it through footpass to handball.

Because we are stagnant, kicks are usually to a content or under pressure.

Hawks also use "blocking" for each other so the leading player gains meterage on his opponent.

 

[THATSGOLD]

I believe that the problem is one of confidence. In 2011, most of the same players as were on the field in 2014 were accurate field kicks. In 2014, our players lost the confidence they would hit targets, and that immediately made the leads less committed, and therefore the passes worse. This is a positive feedback loop. Each step in the wrong direction creates conditions for the next negative step. This is the real area in which our coaches have to generate improvement. The skills, I am certain, are there. Some players are better than others, but this is a truism that is not really important. If we can keep something approaching the best side on the field, then most of the problems will go away.

It's all confidence spot on. When you are winning you can play like millionaires and often it comes off, when you are losing it looks really bad.

 

[Chilli Con Incarnate]

Our kicking was statistically bad last season. It is also noticeable at times that we often miss targets. I am more concerned about out marking ability and decision making. I honestly can't think of many players in our team that take contested marks around the ground anymore. Despite this we will kick it regularly to one on one situations. Outside of Cloke, and maybe Elliott, we just aren't a very good side in the air.

Jolly used to be very good at it and I believe it is one of the features of a good ruckman. This is something that Witts and Grundy don't offer much yet but should really be looking to develop. Having a roving target that is a good tall mark is invaluable to a team. Hopefully Witts can continue to offer some grabs like we saw at the end of last season.

It's been done to death, but we have a lot of smaller midfielders. I believe that this hurts our contested marking through the corridor. We have lots of skillful players at ground level and in space, but not one on one.

I think this makes our kicking look worse than it might actually be.

 

[mike123]

Witts and Grundy don't offer contested marking consistently but they've shown glimpses. It'll improve with time.

 

[Chilli Con Incarnate]

Witts and Grundy don't offer contested marking consistently but they've shown glimpses. It'll improve with time.

This is what I am hoping. I think that if just these two players (Witts and Grundy) can improve that one skill then it will make a massive difference to our side. They'll offer more around the ground and up forward.