Please RTB go back to the future

[rodney hoo]

You drink too much Kool Aid.

It's not weird, they don't have a big forward line.

Time will tell on how much there is to SA opinion, but one is clear though,in Ross own words he told us he was brought into win premiereships and on his first time around at Freo has not happened, let's see how he goes in the next seasons.

 

[Silent Alarm]

I drink Kool Aid?!

Ironic for a thread where people are implying we're close to a premiership...

 

[UFO Tatsu]

I drink Kool Aid?!

Ironic for a thread where people are implying we're close to a premiership...

I assume it was sarcasm. The last thing people can accuse you of is "drinking kool aid".

 

[Crippa]

Liked most of what your wrote but the above doesn't seem true from anyone looking more closely, especially with the indigenous players on our list. I think how RTB treats the media impacts how many perceive how he might treat the players but everything I've seen says the exact opposite. I think Ross respects hard workers, that try their best with whatever limitations/obstacles they have. Those obstacles could be physical/ability-based or could be life based (eg Bennell/Walters/Johnson) - Bennell is/was living with him at one stage. Even Neale achieving what he has coming from such a late draft pick, I think it's pretty obvious he's done that because he's worked his butt off and there is clear mutual respect with Ross.

I actually don't think there is a better AFL coach out there for indigenous players and that's why I am excited about us drafting more plus finally getting to see Bennell on the field and Yarran as starting B22 and with another AFL pre-season under his belt. Our future looks pretty exciting imo and I think Ross is the right coach to lead the ship given how our list is shaping up.

Incredibly insightful post. Reminds me of the time I heard Gilbert McAdam on the Margrook Footy Show tell a story about how Ross drove him home from somewhere. It was a 2 hour ride and they talked about life and the deep stuff. Gil said Ross changed his life - it was the way he spoke to him and the things he said - and he was in tears talking about it. Gil worships the man and would do anything for him. Just to add further substance to your point.

 

[Wally Walpamur]

I think it was mentioned in here before but the doggies style is almost rugby like. When they move the ball from a stoppage, they get it to a no 9 to distribute it out of the congestion, then they line up like the backs do in union and surge forward, ready to receive the handball flat in line. If they can't clear the congestion they attack the opposition with the ball to create another stoppage/turnover and go again.

 

[malpaso]

I think it was mentioned in here before but the doggies style is almost rugby like. When they move the ball from a stoppage, they get it to a no 9 to distribute it out of the congestion, then they line up like the backs do in union and surge forward, ready to receive the handball flat in line. If they can't clear the congestion they attack the opposition with the ball to create another stoppage/turnover and go again.

Very valid observation, they attack the contested ball with huge effort and then look to run and not just one or two but all of them to provide as many options as possible for the ball carrier.

 

[jerms]

Incredibly insightful post. Reminds me of the time I heard Gilbert McAdam on the Margrook Footy Show tell a story about how Ross drove him home from somewhere. It was a 2 hour ride and they talked about life and the deep stuff. Gil said Ross changed his life - it was the way he spoke to him and the things he said - and he was in tears talking about it. Gil worships the man and would do anything for him. Just to add further substance to your point.

Was also wayToGo_'s 2,000th post, it appears. WD.

 

[Freo Dr]

I think it was mentioned in here before but the doggies style is almost rugby like. When they move the ball from a stoppage, they get it to a no 9 to distribute it out of the congestion, then they line up like the backs do in union and surge forward, ready to receive the handball flat in line. If they can't clear the congestion they attack the opposition with the ball to create another stoppage/turnover and go again.

Good observation and exactly correct. Not sure about higher levels but a lot of junior coaches pactice with rugby handball games for this exact reason- lots of h/ball options sideways or back a little and spaced apart.

 

[FreoRicci]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet. But in 2013 Freo were the 12th highest scoring side.
Western Bulldogs this year: 12th highest scoring side. 7th in terms of %. The brand of footy we played in 2013 was, sure, defensive and against what football is (if you believe the media crap..) but it's the type of brand that held up in finals.

Western Bulldogs four games in the finals and their opponent's scores:
WCE 52 pts (5th highest scoring side),
Hawthorn 84 pts (6th highest scoring side),
GWS 83 (2nd highest scoring side) and
Sydney 67 (4th highest scoring)
Average: 71.5 pts
Not one team over 100 pts. I know finals are a different intensity but if you have a defensive plan and stick to it, more often then not the results will reflect that. Bulldogs team is an epitome of this. They aren't blessed with key forwards or key backmen but much like what we did in 2013, having a few gun midfielders with a strong team plan, they played to their strengths. With players like Hamling, Morris, Wood getting the better of players like Buddy, Tippett, Cameron, Kennedy - the players that should (on paper) have kicked 3+ goals - shows how the plan can work.

The thing about Ross Lyon's teams are, unfortunately, the teams on the day don't kick straight, or choke and only helped so much. Had St Kilda won in 09, 10 who knows but it's the reason why we even got to the GF in 2013 in the first place.

We have knowingly been chasing '2 or 3 extra goals a game' which is fair enough but clearly that hasn't happened. Instead we lost our defensive structure that beats the best of teams and grind them, just like Bulldogs did. We do need to change in terms of how we attack the game, but Hawthorn's era/dominance is done and Bulldogs showed that the same rolling stoppages and structure still has a place in AFL. Ross should know that. The obsession with trying to beat Hawthorn at their game should be canned, which was the very reason last year's pre season was overhauled. We got 2 former Hawks players in, tried to match our skills to their skills and clearly went backwards because of it.

 

[aussieviking]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet. But in 2013 Freo were the 12th highest scoring side.
Western Bulldogs this year: 12th highest scoring side. 7th in terms of %. The brand of footy we played in 2013 was, sure, defensive and against what football is (if you believe the media crap..) but it's the type of brand that held up in finals.

Western Bulldogs four games in the finals and their opponent's scores:
WCE 52 pts (5th highest scoring side),
Hawthorn 84 pts (6th highest scoring side),
GWS 83 (2nd highest scoring side) and
Sydney 67 (4th highest scoring)
Average: 71.5 pts
Not one team over 100 pts. I know finals are a different intensity but if you have a defensive plan and stick to it, more often then not the results will reflect that. Bulldogs team is an epitome of this. They aren't blessed with key forwards or key backmen but much like what we did in 2013, having a few gun midfielders with a strong team plan, they played to their strengths. With players like Hamling, Morris, Wood getting the better of players like Buddy, Tippett, Cameron, Kennedy - the players that should (on paper) have kicked 3+ goals - shows how the plan can work.

The thing about Ross Lyon's teams are, unfortunately, the teams on the day don't kick straight, or choke and only helped so much. Had St Kilda won in 09, 10 who knows but it's the reason why we even got to the GF in 2013 in the first place.

We have knowingly been chasing '2 or 3 extra goals a game' which is fair enough but clearly that hasn't happened. Instead we lost our defensive structure that beats the best of teams and grind them, just like Bulldogs did. We do need to change in terms of how we attack the game, but Hawthorn's era/dominance is done and Bulldogs showed that the same rolling stoppages and structure still has a place in AFL. Ross should know that. The obsession with trying to beat Hawthorn at their game should be canned, which was the very reason last year's pre season was overhauled. We got 2 former Hawks players in, tried to match our skills to their skills and clearly went backwards because of it.

I agree with you. Our game plan in 2013 -2015 was fine. We just lacked a few better players especially up forward.
I also think we need to work on a plan B for the times we do find ourselves a couple of goals down in a game.

 

[Crippa]

I agree with you. Our game plan in 2013 -2015 was fine. We just lacked a few better players especially up forward.
I also think we need to work on a plan B for the times we do find ourselves a couple of goals down in a game.

I reckon the club's working on Plan B as we speak.

PLAN B: Recruit players who can actually convert the opportunities the game plan provides, and move on those who can't.

 

[wehavethepassion]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet. But in 2013 Freo were the 12th highest scoring side.
Western Bulldogs this year: 12th highest scoring side. 7th in terms of %. The brand of footy we played in 2013 was, sure, defensive and against what football is (if you believe the media crap..) but it's the type of brand that held up in finals.

Western Bulldogs four games in the finals and their opponent's scores:
WCE 52 pts (5th highest scoring side),
Hawthorn 84 pts (6th highest scoring side),
GWS 83 (2nd highest scoring side) and
Sydney 67 (4th highest scoring)
Average: 71.5 pts
Not one team over 100 pts. I know finals are a different intensity but if you have a defensive plan and stick to it, more often then not the results will reflect that. Bulldogs team is an epitome of this. They aren't blessed with key forwards or key backmen but much like what we did in 2013, having a few gun midfielders with a strong team plan, they played to their strengths. With players like Hamling, Morris, Wood getting the better of players like Buddy, Tippett, Cameron, Kennedy - the players that should (on paper) have kicked 3+ goals - shows how the plan can work.

The thing about Ross Lyon's teams are, unfortunately, the teams on the day don't kick straight, or choke and only helped so much. Had St Kilda won in 09, 10 who knows but it's the reason why we even got to the GF in 2013 in the first place.

We have knowingly been chasing '2 or 3 extra goals a game' which is fair enough but clearly that hasn't happened. Instead we lost our defensive structure that beats the best of teams and grind them, just like Bulldogs did. We do need to change in terms of how we attack the game, but Hawthorn's era/dominance is done and Bulldogs showed that the same rolling stoppages and structure still has a place in AFL. Ross should know that. The obsession with trying to beat Hawthorn at their game should be canned, which was the very reason last year's pre season was overhauled. We got 2 former Hawks players in, tried to match our skills to their skills and clearly went backwards because of it.

FR great analysis. You have nailed it.

 

[TheMcManusNose]

I think a bit lost in all this about the Bulldogs win is that if you look at the last umpteen premiers, they all tend to be both defensively AND offensively very good in the context of each year. In fact, the more offensively competent sides tend to come out on top more often. With the caveat that they also have an above-average defence. Offence wins the majority.

The gist i'm getting from what a lot of people seem to be saying here is "let's try to be the exception because it has worked this one time". That is not to say it won't again - you have the Sydney 2005 and 2012 'exceptions' also to point towards as examples. However, they are very much in the minority. As in the Dogs v Hawks debate. The Dogs have won this one. The Hawks have won 4 in the last 8 years.

This is to say nothing of which "style" we should follow - I agree we shouldn't try to be a carbon copy of Hawthorn, because we aren't. But I when I hear 'go back to the future' some of what I think of is a game plan that values endurance and tackling pressure over foot-skills and football nous. I think the recruiting direction we seem to be taking addresses that somewhat, but i'm not sure that going back to that '13 plan is really playing to their strengths.

 

[rodney hoo]

I think a bit lost in all this about the Bulldogs win is that if you look at the last umpteen premiers, they all tend to be both defensively AND offensively very good in the context of each year. In fact, the more offensively competent sides tend to come out on top more often. With the caveat that they also have an above-average defence. Offence wins the majority.

The gist i'm getting from what a lot of people seem to be saying here is "let's try to be the exception because it has worked this one time". That is not to say it won't again - you have the Sydney 2005 and 2012 'exceptions' also to point towards as examples. However, they are very much in the minority. As in the Dogs v Hawks debate. The Dogs have won this one. The Hawks have won 4 in the last 8 years.

This is to say nothing of which "style" we should follow - I agree we shouldn't try to be a carbon copy of Hawthorn, because we aren't. But I when I hear 'go back to the future' some of what I think of is a game plan that values endurance and tackling pressure over foot-skills and football nous. I think the recruiting direction we seem to be taking addresses that somewhat, but i'm not sure that going back to that '13 plan is really playing to their strengths.

Agree with this a lot, even in 2012 swans scored 90 plus points.

 

[Patty_Moz]

I think a bit lost in all this about the Bulldogs win is that if you look at the last umpteen premiers, they all tend to be both defensively AND offensively very good in the context of each year. In fact, the more offensively competent sides tend to come out on top more often. With the caveat that they also have an above-average defence. Offence wins the majority.

The gist i'm getting from what a lot of people seem to be saying here is "let's try to be the exception because it has worked this one time". That is not to say it won't again - you have the Sydney 2005 and 2012 'exceptions' also to point towards as examples. However, they are very much in the minority. As in the Dogs v Hawks debate. The Dogs have won this one. The Hawks have won 4 in the last 8 years.

This is to say nothing of which "style" we should follow - I agree we shouldn't try to be a carbon copy of Hawthorn, because we aren't. But I when I hear 'go back to the future' some of what I think of is a game plan that values endurance and tackling pressure over foot-skills and football nous. I think the recruiting direction we seem to be taking addresses that somewhat, but i'm not sure that going back to that '13 plan is really playing to their strengths.

Good post I'd back it up further by saying that the full defensive unit only worked once in 2005. Swans were 14th for points for that year yet won the gf. They changed considerably by 2012 they were the best defence and 5th for points for so had recognised the importance of attack.

 

[Ausbenito]

If we manage to get Macarthy and Kersten we will have to play a Bulldogs style game as they arent high marking forwards more running types heres hoping we can produce something similar.

 

[wayToGo_]

Agree with this a lot, even in 2012 swans scored 90 plus points.

In the first 10 games of 2015 I think we averaged 94 points which I think is pretty darn good given we had Pav as our only KPF really. That's only 2 points less than what the Bulldogs averaged in the finals series.

 

[meima]

Agree with this a lot, even in 2012 swans scored 90 plus points.

Agree with your post , people here is too narrow mind, bulldog , hawthorn,sydney all win GF and ross st kilda and freo don't . Postie can Bring all stats and complain about the freo list all this is not going to change , but game style,strategy and formation can .decent player that got value want a flag and dont want to come to WA and travel every forthnight.

Time will tell keeping sandi and johnson so long is good for the team. One thing i can see with beveridge is he will look to the players on the list all the same , everybody got a chance if you perform no favorism with best 22.

Next year is Best chance for ross to tweak his game plan and change some of his weakeness , if not will go down as good coach that never win a flag.

 

[Unique Name]

In the first 10 games of 2015 I think we averaged 94 points which I think is pretty darn good given we had Pav as our only KPF really. That's only 2 points less than what the Bulldogs averaged in the finals series.

Actually in those first 10 games we played with a traditional forward line (2 KPF's and a Fwd/Ruck)

First 10 games 2015
Pav - 21 goals (2.1 average)
Tabs - 11 goals (1.1 average)
Clarke - 5 goals (0.5 average)

Our scoring dropped off when we started running with only 1 KPF (Pav) and Fyfe started breaking down.

 

[balthazarthedonk]

Agree with your post , people here is too narrow mind, bulldog , hawthorn,sydney all win GF and ross st kilda and freo don't . Postie can Bring all stats and complain about the freo list all this is not going to change , but game style,strategy and formation can .decent player that got value want a flag and dont want to come to WA and travel every forthnight.

Time will tell keeping sandi and johnson so long is good for the team. One thing i can see with beveridge is he will look to the players on the list all the same , everybody got a chance if you perform no favorism with best 22.

Next year is Best chance for ross to tweak his game plan and change some of his weakeness , if not will go down as good coach that never win a flag.

I agree with what you say about player favouritism. Sh_ts me to tears. It was interesting that the late-season feedback from the players was that form was not being rewarded. Lyon, I recall, spun that as saying the players thought the coaches were too soft. No, the most obvious conclusion is that he was picking players to fulfill a preconceived role and not giving other players the chance to showcase their (different) talents. (I put Grey and de Luca entirely in this basket). It seems to me entirely consistent with his comments way back when about Wayne Bennett. In 2014 he said he was impressed with Bennett telling him ‘I know what wins games of Rugby League and I change the personnel until they can meet what they need to do’.
Well, next year with a bunch of excited young puppies bouncing around on the field, a few new players and the rule changes already imposed by the AFL, Ross will have to base his gameplan around the strengths and weaknesses that have been handed to him. And thank God for that. No back to the future for me - I hope we'll see a new and interesting hybrid emerge.

 

[Scham]

Time will tell keeping sandi and johnson so long is good for the team. One thing i can see with beveridge is he will look to the players on the list all the same , everybody got a chance if you perform no favouritism with best 22.

Next year is Best chance for ross to tweak his game plan and change some of his weakness , if not will go down as good coach that never win a flag.

This time next year we'll all be a lot wiser

 

[rodney hoo]

In the first 10 games of 2015 I think we averaged 94 points which I think is pretty darn good given we had Pav as our only KPF really. That's only 2 points less than what the Bulldogs averaged in the finals series.

Problem with this is premiereships are not won in the first half of the season, yes we got injuries but no more than the dogs or any other club. Ross start with a list 25/30 players at start of season and no one else gets a look in till this year when no hope of finals.

 

[wayToGo_]

Actually in those first 10 games we played with a traditional forward line (2 KPF's and a Fwd/Ruck)

First 10 games 2015
Pav - 21 goals (2.1 average)
Tabs - 11 goals (1.1 average)
Clarke - 5 goals (0.5 average)

Our scoring dropped off when we started running with only 1 KPF (Pav) and Fyfe started breaking down.

Yeah I suppose you could call Tabs a KPF in those games 1.1g/game isn't terrible I suppose for a KPF. I think the breakdown was far more about Johnson being out in the back line more so than Tabs being dropped. I kind of recall supply drying up a lot after those first 10 games. But agree with the Fyfe comment, especially after his injury - I can't believe people want/ed to trade him for two first rounders or so.

edit - btw, the point I was trying to make is we didn't really have a dominant forward line but still scored ok. 3.7g/game from 3 tall forwards isn't much more than a Josh Kennedy kicks single handedly

 

[rodney hoo]

I agree with what you say about player favouritism. Sh_ts me to tears. It was interesting that the late-season feedback from the players was that form was not being rewarded. Lyon, I recall, spun that as saying the players thought the coaches were too soft. No, the most obvious conclusion is that he was picking players to fulfill a preconceived role and not giving other players the chance to showcase their (different) talents. (I put Grey and de Luca entirely in this basket). It seems to me entirely consistent with his comments way back when about Wayne Bennett. In 2014 he said he was impressed with Bennett telling him ‘I know what wins games of Rugby League and I change the personnel until they can meet what they need to do’.
Well, next year with a bunch of excited young puppies bouncing around on the field, a few new players and the rule changes already imposed by the AFL, Ross will have to base his gameplan around the strengths and weaknesses that have been handed to him. And thank God for that. No back to the future for me - I hope we'll see a new and interesting hybrid emerge.

Yes and if you have ruckman like Clarke and Sandi is out you have to adapt to Clarke strength and not expect him to play like Sandi, same with other players that come in and out.

 

[Mr Peabody]

If we manage to get Macarthy and Kersten we will have to play a Bulldogs style game as they arent high marking forwards more running types heres hoping we can produce something similar.

That may well be the preference if they and the likes of Yarran are not only mobile but can also apply pressure to lock the ball in which is one of the Bulldogs traits. Mayne was kept in the side for that reason largely though at the expense of scoring. RTB has always liked his forwards to be strong defensively too as evidenced by the strength of our press at the back end of '13. If anything, we've probably tipped the scales on the defensive side and not developed enough players capable of doing both (but we went very close to getting the balance right I think). Hopefully the new mix of forwards can come together to provide a more ideal balance. I see it as a finessing of playing style rather than a complete overhaul now we've hopefully got the 'play like the Hawks' stuff out of our system.

The need to blood youth will continue and being prepared to swing players in and out of the team and also move them around the ground is something we saw more of from RTB last year. That will hopefully continue and improve. Crozier off half back was refreshing but it did take a long time to eventuate. If relisted, I'd like to see someone like Deluca given an opportunity as his recent form with Peel was very good.