Possible side effects.

[Mattrox]

A friend who is very well respected in the medical field has grave concerns for side effects of the peptide programme.

Her fear is that peptides which promote growth..... ie of muscle etc..... also promote growth of cancer cells.

She is utterly disgusted by the whole peptide affair for 2 reasons.
1) Players are at a high risk
2) this risk does extend to children they have after being injected.

I was glad to hear today that Essendon is undertaking to look after the players involved in the long term and to monitor their health.

She assures me that the cancer causing properties are not hyping up the issue and are a real threat. We have seen a young rugby league player who was part of a "supplements" programme pass away from cancer. It seems the link is not a tenuous one.

It seems to me that this issue pops up as a side issue when discussing "if the supplements programme was dangerous/morally wrong" but the information and the urgency with which she expressed her concern make me feel that it is much more of a risk than people have been willing to discuss thus far.

 

[invinciBlues]

Its a fair point, given the frequency (but unknown volume) it does put players into a risk category, particularly more so if theres a family history of cancer.

I'm not certain there's a risk to the yet-to-be-conceived yet, it seems tenuous given AOD9604 isnt a known mutagen. But extensive tests haven't been performed so its up in the air atm.

 

[mehow2g]

This is the reason why Essendon were fighting to the death with this and still are.

Dank was at both of these clubs ?

 

[skilts]

This is the reason why Essendon were fighting to the death with this and still are.

Dank was at both of these clubs ?

An unfortunate turn of phrase.

 

[Blues_1864]

She assures me that the cancer causing properties are not hyping up the issue and are a real threat. We have seen a young rugby league player who was part of a "supplements" programme pass away from cancer. It seems the link is not a tenuous one.

If there's a silver lining to this whole debacle... at least the supplements program didn't intersect with the playing career of Adam Ramanauskas.

Although I don't expect that to be much comfort to the 2012 playing list.

 

[The_Reaper]

If there's a silver lining to this whole debacle... at least the supplements program didn't intersect with the playing career of Adam Ramanauskas.

Although I don't expect that to be much comfort to the 2012 playing list.

Nor for Jon Mannah's family

 

[Peacock]

If there's a silver lining to this whole debacle... at least the supplements program didn't intersect with the playing career of Adam Ramanauskas.

Who knows what Charters was supplying Hird and company with back then.

 

[Mattrox]

Its a fair point, given the frequency (but unknown volume) it does put players into a risk category, particularly more so if theres a family history of cancer.

I'm not certain there's a risk to the yet-to-be-conceived yet, it seems tenuous given AOD9604 isnt a known mutagen. But extensive tests haven't been performed so its up in the air atm.

I'm not sure that it works as a mutagen. I'm under the impression that if someone is predisposed genetically it speeds up the time in which the cancer gene is activated. And if there are cancer cells present, it speeds their growth rate.

 

[jenny61_99]

Its a fair point, given the frequency (but unknown volume) it does put players into a risk category, particularly more so if theres a family history of cancer.

I'm not certain there's a risk to the yet-to-be-conceived yet, it seems tenuous given AOD9604 isnt a known mutagen. But extensive tests haven't been performed so its up in the air atm.

And it's not just the ONE substance. It's that Dank combined them and manipulated them.

My father was exposed to radiation as part of an experiment by the British Government in the early 50's. It was after my oldest sister was conceived, but before she was born. He would go on to father 3 other daughters - each of them developing blood disorders in early childhood, one that has manifested into a rare type of cancer. The oldest child - conceived before exposure - has no blood disorder.

This cannot be said strongly enough. The unknown side effects. The unknown genetic implications are just too scary to contemplate. Now we wait to see if our children are also affected.

 

[FootyGeek]

 

[thetank]

James Hird needs to be looked after in this whole mess as well. He also took some health supplements and had some *redacted* side effects.

 

[Hearts to hearts]

If there's a silver lining to this whole debacle... at least the supplements program didn't intersect with the playing career of Adam Ramanauskas.

Although I don't expect that to be much comfort to the 2012 playing list.

I wish more people heard Ramanauskas' comments on 774 last Saturday. Straight to the point on the health risks and duty of care - you'd never have known he played with any of the people involved, because it didn't matter as much as making the point.

 

[invinciBlues]

I'm not sure that it works as a mutagen. I'm under the impression that if someone is predisposed genetically it speeds up the time in which the cancer gene is activated. And if there are cancer cells present, it speeds their growth rate.

That was my take on it, given that hormones and their analogues arent generally known for mutagenic properties it would seem unlikely.

And it's not just the ONE substance. It's that Dank combined them and manipulated them.

My father was exposed to radiation as part of an experiment by the British Government in the early 50's. It was after my oldest sister was conceived, but before she was born. He would go on to father 3 other daughters - each of them developing blood disorders in early childhood, one that has manifested into a rare type of cancer. The oldest child - conceived before exposure - has no blood disorder.

This cannot be said strongly enough. The unknown side effects. The unknown genetic implications are just too scary to contemplate. Now we wait to see if our children are also affected.

This is what Mattrox and myself are alluding to. Radiation is a known mutagen (UV, Ionising radiation, X-rays, etc), so it has the ability to corrupt DNA which when the DNA replicates itself "bad" copies of cells are produced when can become a cancerous growth, and can be passed onto future generations.

Basically, if something is classed carcinogenic it will probably only affect the exposed person and if its a mutagen it has the possibility to be passed on. All mutagens are carcinogens, but not all carcinogens are mutagens.

 

[peanuts!]

If players are concerned about not knowing what substances they took why not undergo a hair sample analysis? The analysis could also be passed on to ASADA and the AFL to prove the clubs innocence. If I was a player I would want to know what I had taken and the future risk to my health.

 

[jenny61_99]

That was my take on it, given that hormones and their analogues arent generally known for mutagenic properties it would seem unlikely.




This is what Mattrox and myself are alluding to. Radiation is a known mutagen (UV, Ionising radiation, X-rays, etc), so it has the ability to corrupt DNA which when the DNA replicates itself "bad" copies of cells are produced when can become a cancerous growth, and can be passed onto future generations.

Basically, if something is classed carcinogenic it will probably only affect the exposed person and if its a mutagen it has the possibility to be passed on. All mutagens are carcinogens, but not all carcinogens are mutagens.

It's not the carcinogenic nature of these compounds, rather whether they activate dormant cancer cells. And of course you know the genetic consequences of drugs like thalidomide. None of that can be discounted.

 

[invinciBlues]

It's not the carcinogenic nature of these compounds, rather whether they activate dormant cancer cells. And of course you know the genetic consequences of drugs like thalidomide. None of that can be discounted.

On your first point its six of one and a half dozen of the other. There hasnt really been any evidence of activating dormant cells in relation to AOD9604. Jon Mannah had a history with cancer so it was already present. But the levels the players were taking are unprecedented, so its anybody's guess.

As for thalidomide, it doesnt alter anything genetic. What it does is prevent the proper growth of foetuses particularly in the first trimester more due to the fact that it can pass through the placental barrier. Its neither a carcinogen nor a mutagen. Incidentally it has shown promise in the treatment of some types of cancer.

 

[SunshineBoy]

And it's not just the ONE substance. It's that Dank combined them and manipulated them.

My father was exposed to radiation as part of an experiment by the British Government in the early 50's. It was after my oldest sister was conceived, but before she was born. He would go on to father 3 other daughters - each of them developing blood disorders in early childhood, one that has manifested into a rare type of cancer. The oldest child - conceived before exposure - has no blood disorder.

This cannot be said strongly enough. The unknown side effects. The unknown genetic implications are just too scary to contemplate. Now we wait to see if our children are also affected.

Sorry to hear that jenny, this is what the moronic cultist don't get, it affects people for a long time and especially at that club after the ramanaskas issues, totaly lacking morals and celebrating at how lightly the club got off.

Australian Rules Football is a laughing stock at least the nrl has he nuts to act.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

A friend who is very well respected in the medical field has grave concerns for side effects of the peptide programme.

Her fear is that peptides which promote growth..... ie of muscle etc..... also promote growth of cancer cells.

.......

Can you go back to your friend with this info and ask her what she thinks. Now's its not meant to belittle her or anyone but how is this fear of what happened to the players any different to what has been happening in professional sports for the last 3 decades?

Human growth hormones have been used since approx 1980 and the first positive didn't happen until 2010. In the lead up to the London Olympics there was a 6 month world wide shortage of HGH. In the lead up to Beijing there was a shortage but not quiet as big. In April and May 2008 in the lead up to Beijing ABC's Lateline program had 4 stories about HGH. In the 4th story there was an interview with the AMA president. She expressed concern about how easy it easy to get hold of HGH from anti ageing clinics, but what did the AMA do about it? Not much.

April 2008

Olympic year spike in steroid importation

and on the same night
Sports physician Peter Larkins says other undetectable drugs likely

May 2008 they followed it with another story on HGH

Human Growth Hormone threatens drug-free Olympics

For the first time, international drug testers are confident that a test for human growth hormone (HGH) will catch drug cheats at this year's Olympic Games. But a Lateline investigation has found the drug is easily obtained through so called anti-ageing clinics and that drug testing authorities are struggling to obtain even basic data about the supply of growth hormone in Australia.
.....

KEN HO, ENDOCRINOLOGIST: Growth hormone has appeal to the vain because it reduces body fat and builds muscles. A cheaper way of achieving that is simple daily exercise.

JOHN STEWART: Anti-ageing clinics might sound like they target older people, but some are clearly aimed at young men and women wanting to get big or loose weight.

The Sydney Anti-Ageing Clinic showcases photographs of young body builders and models in their prime.

Professor Ken Ho is one of Australia's leading endocrinologists.

KEN HO: So this is how growth hormone comes in, in a pre-mixed vial.

JOHN STEWART: He is also the country's leading authority on growth hormone.

Do you think an Olympic athlete could get human growth hormone from an anti-ageing clinic?

KEN HO: Anyone can get human growth hormone from an anti-ageing clinic which prescribes the substance.

JOHN STEWART: People who take too much human growth hormone risk serious side effects.

Bones in the hands, feet, skull and jaw can become elongated, and worse.

KEN HO: Patients develop diabetes, heart failure and severe disfigurement of the face, from the development of huge ears, a large nose and protruding jaw and their quality of life is totally miserable.

JOHN STEWART: Ken Ho and state medical authorities want greater scrutiny of the anti-ageing clinics, which are freely prescribing the drugs.

KEN HO: I do see quite a number of patients who come for a second opinion after having prescribed growth hormone from an anti ageing clinic.

JOHN STEWART: Patients who attend the clinics don't need to visit a pharmacist to have a prescription filled, they can simply buy growth hormone direct from the doctor running the clinic.

Human Growth Hormone threatens drug-free Olympics

A follow up interview after that story with the then head of the AMA Dr Rosanna Capolingua

AMA discusses availability of HGH

......
TONY JONES: Do you think we do because as we've heard, anecdotal evidence but there seems to be direct evidence of it as well, some doctors are actually selling it directly. They give the prescriptions to people who walk in and sell it directly in their clinics.

ROSANNA CAPOLINGUA: They actually don't even write a script, do they. They actually supply the human growth hormone by the sounds of things so it's about two things there, and I think the NSW medical board representative alluded to that. Drug companies are into market and supply and sales and the doctors here that are under scrutiny over this issue into responding to a market that is asking for the human growth hormone.

TONY JONES: Does the AMA have any idea how widespread this practice is?

ROSANNA CAPOLINGUA: We haven't looked specifically at the widespread practice. Once again you must remember that this really is isolated then to a very small number of doctors across the country who want to dabble in this sort of area. It's certainly not something that the mainstream medical profession would be even interested in considering.
....

AMA discusses availability of HGH

In 1989 Dr Robert Kerr a USA doctor, got up if front of Justice Dubin of the Dubin Inquiry which was set up to inquiry into PED use in Canadian Olympic and other sports, after Ben Johnson got caught in Seoul and under oath said he had inject 20 USA medal winning athletes at the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics. What happened to Dr Kerr? Nothing. The USA had a cold war to win and he kept working with athletes and as far as I know no follow up health studies happened on his patients.

Did Marion Jones suffer any medical effects of taking the Victor Conte/BALCO invented "the clear" ie THG or its proper name tetrahydrogestrinone. Has Tyler Hamilton had health problems from taking EPO and other stuff??

Now I'm not saying that people shouldn't worry about the potential side effects from what Dank injected the players. Around half of what was on the charge sheet are legitimate supplements, the other half are drugs. not supplements. But this near hysteria in the media - "oh they took stuff made in Mexico" or "no one knows what will happen to the players over the next few years," is a little over the top, given what we know about the elite sports people in the Olympic sports have been on hormones and other stuff for decades and I have suspected that 90% of AFL players have been on "stuff" for a decade since the game became full time.

Why are people only concerned now??

 

[Just interested]

First this;

AUSTRALIA's foremost expert on AOD-9604 - the drug central to the Essendon doping scandal - says not enough is known to declare repeat injections of the substance safe.
The Herald Sun revealed earlier this month 1500 injections of AOD and a type of Thymosin were planned under Essendon's supplements program.

And a consent form signed by players suggests they were to have one injection of AOD-9604 a week for the duration of the season.

Professor Gary Wittert of the University of Adelaide has led five out of the six studies on AOD-9604 carried out in humans.

He says data to support new claims in patent applications for the drug to be used to build or repair muscle and cartilage must be made public and scrutinised so risks about potential serious side effects can be evaluated.

While he is sceptical about claims the drug can promote muscle growth, Wittert said any substance that mimicked human growth hormone could also possibly promote cancer.


"Something is seriously amiss when substances of uncertain benefit and unknown risk are injected into people by persons unqualified to do so and where the process of ethics and consent is less than robust," Wittert said.

He told the Herald Sun that no one from the Essendon Football Club had been in contact with him before the AFL released its charge sheet against the club and four top officials last week.

The club has now held five information sessions for parents and family members involved in the supplements program.

Paid Essendon consultant Dr Andrew Garnham said at last week's meeting that he regarded AOD-9604 as a "safe substance".

Garnham has since consulted Wittert about the drug.

The Wittert-led studies were paid for by Metabolic Pharmaceuticals, the company that developed the drug aimed at fighting obesity.

It failed as an anti-obesity drug years ago and, despite anecdotal claims in the bodybuilding scene that it has muscle-building properties, a statement to the Australian Stock Exchange from Metabolic's parent company, Calzada Limited, refutes even that.

"There is no evidence that AOD-9604 dosing increases the number of muscle or cartilage cells," Calzada said in April, after revelations that former Essendon sports scientist Stephen Dank had given case notes from his use of AOD-9604 topical cream on four Bombers players to be used by Metabolic as part of a patent application.

Wittert says Essendon's decision to give players frequent injections of the drug did "not pass the test of sensible, it doesn't pass the test of reasonable".

"You can't extrapolate - in the injections (during trials), the maximum amount that any one individual had was three injections," Wittert said.

"So how can you say that because there was no problem with the phase two program (three injections) that there is not going to be a problem with repeat injections?"

In the trials conducted by Wittert, there were side effects including gastro-intestinal problems, headaches and, in the intravenous studies, evidence of euphoric effects.

He said the publicly available data about AOD-9604 was sketchy, while information from some studies has not been made available for scrutiny.

Calzada says Metabolic does not currently manufacture or sell AOD-9604 but admits black market supplies of the drug - sourced in China - are being distributed in nations across the globe.

Online sellers of the peptide claim it has anti-obesity, fat-burning qualities.

They also claim that it has other effects such as increasing muscle mass.

Literature around Calzada's patent applications for new uses of AOD-9604 claim it could "promote or repair new cartilage tissue formation" as a treatment for osteoarthritis.

It is also claimed the drug could be used to improve muscle, ligament or tendon mass, repair, form or function, or any condition where a protein anabolic effect is beneficial.

Wittert says he has been unable to obtain the primary data that supports any claim of AOD-9604's efficacy in building muscle or cartilage tissue.

But it is in the area of muscle growth properties where the real worry lies.

"If what they said is correct, the cell that they are inducing to form is not that normal," Wittert said.

"Let's say that it induced muscle growth - that induces stem cells to become muscle cells.

"That's what growth hormone does; and growth hormone promotes cancer.

"If something stimulates the production of cartilage cells, same thing.

"It is not something I would want to make people frightened about - I want to be clear about that; but if it is talked up about doing these things, then there is an obligation for them to provide the data so that the risks can be properly evaluated.

"It has to be a concern that has not been done. And I don't know why the data has not been produced or demanded."

In April this year Calzada announced they were doing pre-clinical work on AOD as repair agent, in combination with progenitors and other agents.

Then this today from Brukner; with patent information;

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...d-on-the-essendon-players-20130828-2sqxe.html

 

[HomerLeGrande]

HGH leads to the development of huge ears?

PMSL!

Redacted side effects?

 

[rand corp]

Redacted Side Affects!

That sounds pretty bad

 

[ablett]

I'd be more worried about the side effects from McDonalds or diet coke than peptides.
What about all the GMO food out there?
There are some studies stating Thymosin can promote cell growth of cancer cells, or make the cancer more aggressive, but there's no proof Thymosin causes cancer.
Media hype as per usual.

Society has ignored the side effects from smoking & alcohol for decades yet jump up n down when there's an unproven link to cancer from a peptide, hypocritical bunch you are!

 

[IanW]

I'd be more worried about the side effects from McDonalds or diet coke than peptides.
What about all the GMO food out there?
There are some studies stating Thymosin can promote cell growth of cancer cells, or make the cancer more aggressive, but there's no proof Thymosin causes cancer.
Media hype as per usual.

Society has ignored the side effects from smoking & alcohol for decades yet jump up n down when there's an unproven link to cancer from a peptide, hypocritical bunch you are!

If beta thymosin-4 or AOD-9604 gives cancer a kick up the bum so it keeps running hard in the fourth quarter, then thats enough to have a good hard look at what it brings to the club, and figure if it's worth it.

 

[ablett]

If beta thymosin-4 or AOD-9604 gives cancer a kick up the bum so it keeps running hard in the fourth quarter, then thats enough to have a good hard look at what it brings to the club, and figure if it's worth it.

Totally agree, some people will risk it all to succeed while others are more precautious.
Long term health isn't high on many people's(more so athletes) agenda, Cigarette & Alcohol sales are proof of this.
I don't care what people do or take aslong as it doesn't harm or interfere with my life, but if you take PED's then dont complain to the company for getting cancer, its like complaining to McDonalds for being fat.

 

[Mattrox]

Why are people only concerned now??

People are concerned now because the players were told the substances were safe and legal under WADA/ASADA. They were not told the risks prior to the drugs programme starting.

Individual athletes bear the risks of their own actions.

The other thing is that cancer can strike at anytime after exposure to a risk event. Have there been any longitudinal studies of athletes that have been on HGH or related peptides to track for the incidence of cancer?