Discussion Prison Bars debate

[El_Scorcho]

Put it this way Pappagallo if it wasn't at all a brand and financial situation and was purely a visual, footy jumper thing that has no brand risk than Collingwood wouldn't give a sh*t what Port wear.

But it's literally more than a jumper, it's competing in a national, but niche industry.
It's not as simple as Port have their fans in Adelaide and Collingwood have theirs in Melbourne.

They aren't competing in the way that Coke and Pepsi are competing though. It's not complicated. You're talking about fancy marketing concepts and missing fundamental points. Sports fandom doesn't work that way.

No Collingwood fans are going to become Port fans because of this change. No new fans are going to pick Port when they otherwise might have picked Collingwood because of the black and white, or at least such a small number of casual, occasional supporters that it's not relevant. That's not why the vast majority of people pick clubs, they pick them because of proximity or success.

 

[TheLoungeLizard]

If your girlfriend and friend aren't interested in either AFL, Port or Collingwood enough to tell the quote obvious difference, they probably aren't worth a lot of marketing dollars to any of the 3 entities and are therefore completely irrelevant.

Except they are potential customers.
They are a prime market to turn from casual fan to spending customer - which will be a big reason Collingwood try to block it.

Its not the established fans - it's people who aren't yet hooked

 

[El_Scorcho]

And every other league that has been mentioned has a worldwide scope and/ or relegated system.

The AFL market is incredibly small, it's not even front page news in the second biggest City in the country.

Okay, explain how this makes a difference to the branding needs of each league.

 

[TheLoungeLizard]

They aren't competing in the way that Coke and Pepsi are competing though. It's not complicated. You're talking about fancy marketing concepts and missing fundamental points. Sports fandom doesn't work that way.

No Collingwood fans are going to become Port fans because of this change. No new fans are going to pick Port when they otherwise might have picked Collingwood because of the black and white, or at least such a small number of casual, occasional supporters that it's not relevant. That's not why the vast majority of people pick clubs, they pick them because of proximity or success.

I can tell you brand visuals are one of the key components to branding with the rise of social media and image based apps (Instagram and the like) and if Collingwood feel that there is a risk they could lose potential customers because of a confusion between the main marketing element and if the data backs it up they are within their right to protect their brand.

 

[Pappaya]

I think you're severely overestimating the AFL market.

It's incredibly small and the new customer market is smaller so everyone is scraping for who they can get.

Collingwood didn't get to where they are by risking their brand imagery at all.

It makes no sense business wise to share your main assest with a rival - take the footy jumper/club loyalty out of it.
It's two rival companies competing for customers in a niche market, no one is going to roll over and share any potential income

A friend of mine used to work in the marketing dept at Essendon. Nine-tenths of her job was reducing churn (i.e. member retention), re-signing lapsed members and converting casual supporters into paying members. It’s essentially preaching to the converted.

The remaining tenth was community engagement that happens, you know, in the local community. They weren’t putting in the hard yards in the western suburbs of Adelaide funnily enough. They were doing it in their own backyard i.e. Broady, Coburg etc where they can get newcomers who will hopefully turn into attending (i.e. high-paying) members one day.

This is the reality of AFL club marketing department work. It’s mostly holding the fort and convincing people who are ALREADY IN THE TENT to open their wallets. The “new” segment is tiny and almost entirely bound by geography.

Again, the Prison Bars affect none of this from Collingwood’s perspective.

 

[TheLoungeLizard]

Okay, explain how this makes a difference to the branding needs of each league.

Because your market is so small no one is going to give a competitor a chance to infiltrate potential customers

It would be like Richmond allowing Glenelg to come in and strut about in a black jumper with yellow sash (or vice versa)

 

[El_Scorcho]

Except they are potential customers.
They are a prime market to turn from casual fan to spending customer - which will be a big reason Collingwood try to block it.

Its not the established fans - it's people who aren't yet hooked

Bullshit. No they aren't. Prime market to turn from casual fan to spending customer are people who are already Collingwood or Port fans and know the difference.

The people that aren't yet hooked don't follow a team by accident because they thought it was another team. You've invented a category of people that simply don't exist. Port used to get this all the time 20 years ago. "You need to move away from the Port Adelaide branding and focus on the Power, then you'll attract new fans". Those fans don't exist in meaningful numbers, and when Port embraced the history the fanbase was engaged and membership numbers shot up.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Because your market is so small no one is going to give a competitor a chance to infiltrate potential customers

It would be like Richmond allowing Glenelg to come in and strut about in a black jumper with yellow sash (or vice versa)

This happens in every market regardless of size. Try again.

 

[TheLoungeLizard]

Pappagallo then why in your opinion does Collingwood block every attempt by Port?

And please give me more than 'Eddie has a stubborn ego'

 

[TheLoungeLizard]

This happens in every market regardless of size. Try again.

You're telling me that in a niche small market you're happy to allow a competitor to have a highly similar image?

For the record, I would love to see the Bars every week - I don't care what they or Collingwood wear, but I'm just offering perspective on why Collingwood have continually tried to block it and refer back to their brand with my experience in branding and my real life scenario

I'm not in the Magpies branding department so I could be wildly off, but if it was as simple as a jumper that only certain suburbs of Adelaide notice and only certain suburbs of Collingwood notice it wouldn't be an issue.

It's clearly bigger and more likely to be about business growth, which Port are well aware of given your pushes to grow overseas recently.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Pappagallo then why in your opinion does Collingwood block every attempt by Port?

And please give me more than 'Eddie has a stubborn ego'

Stubborn ego is one way of putting it, but it's literally Eddie's job to push Collingwood's case on every single argument involving Collingwood regardless of meaningless it is to keep Collingwood strong. If he pushes hard on everything then he can pick and choose what he uses as leverage in negotiations with the AFL. This doesn't mean he's right or that what he's arguing for will even make a difference in real terms, it just means he can rant and rave about how Collingwood are being mistreated and demand compensation of some sort, which he routinely gets.

Eddie is also a strong media personality who will repeatedly be asked these questions and answer them.

 

[Pappaya]

Pappagallo then why in your opinion does Collingwood block every attempt by Port?

And please give me more than 'Eddie has a stubborn ego'

No ego pretty much sums it up. I guess I could throw in pride as well. Maybe even jealousy perhaps?

 

[TheLoungeLizard]

Stubborn ego is one way of putting it, but it's literally Eddie's job to push Collingwood's case on every single argument involving Collingwood regardless of meaningless it is to keep Collingwood strong. If he pushes hard on everything then he can pick and choose what he uses as leverage in negotiations with the AFL. This doesn't mean he's right or that what he's arguing for will even make a difference in real terms, it just means he can rant and rave about how Collingwood are being mistreated and demand compensation of some sort, which he routinely gets.

Eddie is also a strong media personality who will repeatedly be asked these questions and answer them.

But Collingwood would have a board that ratify each decision the club makes and refer back to data thats been collected inside the club and outside companies that they have used to gather data on sales, projected sales and growth revenues.

Eddie may be the face of it on the TV , but he's not single handedly ringing Kochie up and saying "nah" on the matter

 

[El_Scorcho]

You're telling me that in a niche small market you're happy to allow a competitor to have a highly similar image?

No, i'm telling you that people aren't happy to allow anything to competitors in large markets either, so your attempt to disqualify comparisons to the NBA/NFL/EPL aren't valid. Try again.

 

[eddiesmith]

When did Port fans lose all sense of common sense?

That’s implying they ever had any?

I remember when their argument was they’ve been around longer so were entitled to the black and white, ignoring the part where they only adopted the PB jumper well into their history.

 

[El_Scorcho]

But Collingwood would have a board that ratify each decision the club makes and refer back to data thats been collected inside the club and outside companies that they have used to gather data on sales, projected sales and growth revenues.

Eddie may be the face of it on the TV , but he's not single handedly ringing Kochie up and saying "nah" on the matter

You don't think Eddie McGuire shoots from the hip literally all the time with everything?

 

[El_Scorcho]

That’s implying they ever had any?

I remember when their argument was they’ve been around longer so were entitled to the black and white, ignoring the part where they only adopted the PB jumper well into their history.

Our argument as to why we're entitled to wear the prison bars doesn't actually have anything to do with Collingwood. It'd be the same argument if we'd started wearing them in 1850 or 1950

 

[TheLoungeLizard]

You don't think Eddie McGuire shoots from the hip literally all the time with everything?

He may well have a lot of say over the board, but he's only the President, I don't know Collingwood’s constitution but I'm presuming a number of people on the board have to vote for any decision that comes to them to be ratified.

It could well be Eddie just being a prick, but the AFL have the final say and I doubt that alone is the reason why the Bars aren't allowed.

There has to be sensible business reasoning behind it, because if it really is just as simple as one man halting the entire process because of petulance, the AFL is more lost on me than ever

 

[El_Scorcho]

He may well have a lot of say over the board, but he's only the President, I don't know Collingwood’s constitution but I'm presuming a number of people on the board have to vote for any decision that comes to them to be ratified.

It could well be Eddie just being a prick, but the AFL have the final say and I doubt that alone is the reason why the Bars aren't allowed.

There has to be sensible business reasoning behind it, because if it really is just as simple as one man halting the entire process because of petulance, the AFL is more lost on me than ever

As I said, Eddie will rant and rave on every perceived slight against Collingwood, however big or small, so he has leverage against the AFL for stuff he really wants. That's his style, and it's effective. The only reason it's been so effective so far is that Port haven't properly challenged it, and now we are. We'll see what happens moving forward.

Given Eddie apparently has control over this and is so doggedly against us wearing the bars, we've now worn them what, 5 times at AFL level? He can't be that against them.

 

[TheLoungeLizard]

As I said, Eddie will rant and rave on every perceived slight against Collingwood, however big or small, so he has leverage against the AFL for stuff he really wants. That's his style, and it's effective. The only reason it's been so effective so far is that Port haven't properly challenged it, and now we are. We'll see what happens moving forward.

Given Eddie apparently has control over this and is so doggedly against us wearing the bars, we've now worn them what, 5 times at AFL level? He can't be that against them.

I've always had the impression the AFL has given the l clear because they have been one-off instances with cause (Heritage round, Welcome to Adelaide Oval, 150 years) ect

And you could also argue 5 times in 25 odd years isn't a lot.

But I don't wanna argue that because as I said, I love the Bars jumper, I would like to see it more.

I'm just offering a perspective from my experiences why Collingwood have tried to block it happening as I find it highly unlikely it's entirely Eddie saying no and no one else over ruling him.

But, I've been wrong before

 

[TheLoungeLizard]

If Eddie really does over rule the club board, weild power to over rule the AFL commission and all of this with no data back up or reasonable evidence and all because he says no, I'll honestly be gobsmacked

 

[magpienato]

Haha, I should have seen this coming.

All I am saying is Collingwood's main and only real argument against is that it's a clash of their established brand.

Agree or not with their stance and whether you should be allowed the Bars in the top flight, in my personal experience I've had two non-footy jumper, non AFL (one with an interest in the game) mistake the Bars jumper for Collingwood.

Which is exactly why the Bars won't happen (in my opinion)

I don't think it's Collingwood's only argument. The whole 'branding' side of things is only a small consideration of my opposition to the Bars full-time.
My main argument against is based on principle. A club which agreed to join another league on the condition that it would have to alter its jumper should be held to that condition.

 

[Heardy_101]

AFL is a tiny, tiny market in Australia (since the second biggest city in Australia barely gives a toss about it)

Australia's second biggest city has 9 teams and 1 semi regional team and no one gives a toss about it. Alrighty then.

 

[bomberclifford]

My main argument against is based on principle. A club which agreed to join another league on the condition that it would have to alter its jumper should be held to that condition.

We have held to that condition. We're looking at wearing this guernsey in a local derby only. That's what the proposal to the AFL is based on and the legal agreement they are using to do this means that there is no 'slippery slope' because it locks its use to a heritage themed game. Port are requesting that Showdown games be classed as a representation of SA Football heritage.

While there are a contingent of supporters who want the bars as our full time home guernsey, the club is committed to the BiB chevron guernsey design and kit. (ie black base for home, grey/silver base for away, and white base for clash)

This is fundamental to our club's brand strategy moving forward. The bars are an icon of our heritage and we want to celebrate it without having this rigmarole with Eddie every time we do.

 

[LeeARM]

I can see why people, particularly Collingwood supporters are against Port wearing the prison bars but I feel like most people would get over it pretty quickly if they did start wearing them.
I could see casual (non-SA) fans taking a couple of years to figure out what is going on but that's about as far as the confusion would go.

For me, the bars should be brought back because they're a great reflection of the history of the club and in turn, the history of the game, with Port being so successful in the SANFL and being the only non-VFA club to join the VFL/AFL from another league.

It's a great characteristic of the AFL that the clubs and the league try to respect their history so much. Even in the case that Port wore prison bars at home against Collingwood, there's no reason that Collingwood would have to wear a gold/pink/bright green jumper. They could have a white jumper with a couple of black stripes down the middle which would work fine.