Quiz for correct thinking people

otaku

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#26
funkyfreo said:
Ok - well then I guess the main argument is that this method of killing a fox is inhumane, and that relates not so much to the dog eating fox (although this certainly is part of the argument), but the bloodsport nature of humans cheering on dog eating fox (this is the less publicised but I think most honest assessment).

It is not an argument against controlling fox populations, or potential fox escape, and it is as fine for the horses as any other trot around the Manor grounds.

so, bloodlust is why we shouldnt kill foxes?

wouldnt this then apply to anysort of animal hunting?

how about any sort of sport where animals get hurt - such as horse racing?

what about motor sports - where the majority of people go to see a crash?

What about footy? where people wanna see a bit of biff?

All these are forms of bloodlust - just none as quite as obvious as fox hunting
 

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funkyfreo

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#27
No one at footy or motorsport is playing without full knowledge of risks.
Horse-racing - you as that as though steeplechase events do not regularly attract animal rights protesters:)
HUnting in general - ditto.

"All these are forms of bloodlust - just none as quite as obvious as fox hunting"

erm yep I rekon you've hit the nail on the head - it is a matter of where you draw the line. Hunting involves cheering death without a real reason for the kill. One major influencing factor I think is the working classes dislike for the lorded gentry of the countryside.

So Roo shooting gets away with it in Oz because they are battler lads on the back of a ute, for example, rather than red-jacketed show-ponies on ponies.
 

otaku

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#28
funkyfreo said:
No one at footy or motorsport is playing without full knowledge of risks.
Horse-racing - you as that as though steeplechase events do not regularly attract animal rights protesters:)
HUnting in general - ditto.

"All these are forms of bloodlust - just none as quite as obvious as fox hunting"

erm yep I rekon you've hit the nail on the head - it is a matter of where you draw the line. Hunting involves cheering death without a real reason for the kill. One major influencing factor I think is the working classes dislike for the lorded gentry of the countryside.

So Roo shooting gets away with it in Oz because they are battler lads on the back of a ute, for example, rather than red-jacketed show-ponies on ponies.
so, now it might be a case of being a class thing??

Hmm....
 

TheBloods

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#29
otaku said:
all well and good - but my question was "why shouldn't we hunt foxes?".

Is it because it is inhumane? or because the fox can sometimes get away? Or it tires the horses? Or the kill isnt spread around evenly enough?
We shouldn't hunt foxes because killing other living sentient beings purely for own entertainment is disgraceful. From what I understand the fox hunts are not about pest control, but tradition.
 

funkyfreo

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#30
otaku said:
so, now it might be a case of being a class thing??

Hmm....
You can't take public perception out of politics I'm afraid! In fact if you took public perception out then would you even have politics left?

Element of lower class v upperclass - but I'd not say cut and dry.
Element of moral high ground/cultural superiority. ie I'm confident there are many many very wealthy people who oppose the classical hunt. ie as much about intellectual class as financial class. Plus it maybe targets a class of people who have done bugger all to get rich apart from a family name from some bygone days of Monarchy.

But that is hardly worthy of a conspiracy theory.
 

Mr Q

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#31
otaku said:
just out of curiosity - why shouldnt we hunt foxes?
It depends on whether you're talking hunting foxes or Hunting foxes (if you get my drift).

The Hunt is basically the somewhat cruel chase of an animal for sport. It has no appreciable effect on actual fox numbers, nor is the resaon for the chase actually related to any normally accepted reason to hunt animals. Basically the fox is being hunted and killed for the entertainment of the hunters.

If the fox is hunted as a pest, its not done for entertainment, its done as a necessity, because its continued existence is a problem for society as a whole.

Basically I suppose opposition to the Hunt is dependent on whether you believe that hunting animals for amusement is acceptable or barbaric. I tend to the latter, so I applaud the banning of this.
 

otaku

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#32
Mr Q said:
It depends on whether you're talking hunting foxes or Hunting foxes (if you get my drift).

The Hunt is basically the somewhat cruel chase of an animal for sport. It has no appreciable effect on actual fox numbers, nor is the resaon for the chase actually related to any normally accepted reason to hunt animals. Basically the fox is being hunted and killed for the entertainment of the hunters.

If the fox is hunted as a pest, its not done for entertainment, its done as a necessity, because its continued existence is a problem for society as a whole.

Basically I suppose opposition to the Hunt is dependent on whether you believe that hunting animals for amusement is acceptable or barbaric. I tend to the latter, so I applaud the banning of this.
what about the elimination of foxes then? through baiting or snaring?

Is that any better?
 

funkyfreo

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#34
otaku said:
what about the elimination of foxes then? through baiting or snaring?

Is that any better?
Totally different issue - that is elimination for population control. No one picks up the corpses, cheers, and drinks a whiskey or champers. I really can;t comment on the need for this in the UK and I'm not interested in getting involved.

I know 1080 baiting in WA is still quite a contentious issue. Certainly the population control should be done in as humane a fashion as possible. One such humane alternative IS NOT a fox hunt. As an INTRODUCED pest that is a real threat to Aussie native fauna then I guess it is an unpleasant necessity of life.
 

otaku

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#35
funkyfreo said:
Totally different issue - that is elimination for population control. No one picks up the corpses, cheers, and drinks a whiskey or champers. I really can;t comment on the need for this in the UK and I'm not interested in getting involved.

I know 1080 baiting in WA is still quite a contentious issue. Certainly the population control should be done in as humane a fashion as possible. One such humane alternative IS NOT a fox hunt. As an INTRODUCED pest that is a real threat to Aussie native fauna then I guess it is an unpleasant necessity of life.
so, it isn't the method of the death of the fox, but the attitudes of the people doing the hunt?
 

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funkyfreo

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#37
otaku said:
so, it isn't the method of the death of the fox, but the attitudes of the people doing the hunt?
Otaku I really don't see why you are so hung up on this. How about you give your thoughts and reasoning on the issue?

It is a whole bundle of reasons all piled into one - you can't just try and isolate it down to one reason. It is both of the above, and more.

The bottom line is that no matter what the arguments used in the UK, a massive majority of elected representatives agree with those arguments, and that is what we call democracy.
 

otaku

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#38
funkyfreo said:
Otaku I really don't see why you are so hung up on this. How about you give your thoughts and reasoning on the issue?

It is a whole bundle of reasons all piled into one - you can't just try and isolate it down to one reason. It is both of the above, and more.

The bottom line is that no matter what the arguments used in the UK, a massive majority of elected representatives agree with those arguments, and that is what we call democracy.
no need to get upset - i am just trying to figure out why you are hapy with baiting or trapping vermin, and yet get your panties in a twist if there are some slightly bent people who get their fun out of eliminating that same vermin.

Both cases it is inhumane treatment of the fox. Yet, one is seemingly more acceptable than the other. Wanna explain?
 

funkyfreo

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#39
otaku said:
no need to get upset - i am just trying to figure out why you are hapy with baiting or trapping vermin, and yet get your panties in a twist if there are some slightly bent people who get their fun out of eliminating that same vermin.

Both cases it is inhumane treatment of the fox. Yet, one is seemingly more acceptable than the other. Wanna explain?
Sorry wasn't intending to sound narky. I just kinda feel I've explained myself and my thoughts pretty clearly, and thought might help to get your side.

Would you rather someone broke into your house and stole the TV, or broke in, stole the TV, ********ed on your bed, and smashed everything else they can see, while drinking champers.

My knickers really are not in a twist at all:) It is a whole of society approach, and the general concensus in the UK is clearly against fox hunting.

99% of the hunters would probably have as much fun doing what I proposed earlier.

My interest in arguing the point is mostly based upon trying to see if any interesting arguments were put forward in favour of the fox hunt. And also because I don't really like broadsweeping swipes at anything people don;t like by calling it Political Correctness.

In my books it would be PC gone mad were the UK to change its standards to allow a practice in the name of tradition, when the vast majority of the population wants that cultural practice banned.
 

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#40
otaku said:
what about the elimination of foxes then? through baiting or snaring?

Is that any better?
I thought I answered that before, but if the fox is a pest that needs to be eradicated, then I guess you need a method of doing so. I don't think entertainment is a suitable method, nor do I feel that the reason for the Hunt has anything to do with culling foxes.

I think that the Hunt exposes and encourages a cruel and violent streak in people, and I think that's a side of people I believe should not be encouraged in any way. We're talking real, live cruelty for entertainment.

(Mind you I don't approve of boxing either, for many similar reasons)
 

funkyfreo

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#41
Mr Q said:
I thought I answered that before, but if the fox is a pest that needs to be eradicated, then I guess you need a method of doing so. I don't think entertainment is a suitable method, nor do I feel that the reason for the Hunt has anything to do with culling foxes.
Spot on. Otaku if you have an improvement on Fox baiting and snaring then please feel free to send your thoughts to the Fox lobby in the UK, and welcome to the humanitarian Left;)
 

otaku

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#42
funkyfreo said:
My knickers really are not in a twist at all:) It is a whole of society approach, and the general concensus in the UK is clearly against fox hunting.

99% of the hunters would probably have as much fun doing what I proposed earlier.

My interest in arguing the point is mostly based upon trying to see if any interesting arguments were put forward in favour of the fox hunt. And also because I don't really like broadsweeping swipes at anything people don;t like by calling it Political Correctness.

In my books it would be PC gone mad were the UK to change its standards to allow a practice in the name of tradition, when the vast majority of the population wants that cultural practice banned.
i understand that the majority of people in th UK not wanting the hunt to go on. What I don't understand is why people feel there is a difference between hunting the fox for fun and hunting a fox for control (which still does happen in the UK).

Now, the fox suffers equally in both. So, why get upset over inhumane treatment in one case, and not the other?
 

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#43
I think the difference lies in whether an animal is being bred soley for the purpose of being hunted for pleasure, especially where the animal suffers in death. Personally I find it difficult to reach my own moral decision on this issue as I enjoy fishing, not just target species for own consumption but also catch and release.

And is it much different to hunting of wild animals, then to the more blood thirsty "sports" such as rooster fighting, dog fighting, bear baiting and the like.

The best line I can draw is using kangaroos as an example. Where they need to be culled due to over population, or they are hunted as a food source, it is ok. Where they are just killed for no reason other than satisfying a blood lust and the carcass is just left to rot, doesn't seem to be morally correct - shows what a hypocrite I am as I wouldn't draw the same analogy with fishing.
 

otaku

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#44
Mr Q said:
I thought I answered that before, but if the fox is a pest that needs to be eradicated, then I guess you need a method of doing so. I don't think entertainment is a suitable method, nor do I feel that the reason for the Hunt has anything to do with culling foxes.

I think that the Hunt exposes and encourages a cruel and violent streak in people, and I think that's a side of people I believe should not be encouraged in any way. We're talking real, live cruelty for entertainment.

(Mind you I don't approve of boxing either, for many similar reasons)
yes, you did - i was trying to get at the attitude though.

And that cruel streak is visible in almost every contact sport, or sport with an element of danger. Should we ban all these?

It is also visible in commercial dealings (although it is less bloodlust and more powerlust - same basic emotion just expressed differently).

To condemn fox hunting, and yet allowing equally bad sports or situation to continue is pointless. At least fox hunting does something effective.
 

funkyfreo

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#45
The argument it does something effective is one you should just let go of Otaku;) But I can see where you are coming from on the rest. But it is just called humanity. If the cow is going to become steak anyway, then why not use it as a dart board for a while, poke its eyes out and skin it alive?

Where do you draw the line - and the line is pretty much fox hunting. It simply does not reflect the common society that most people want to live in. We live in a society where most believe that if an animal is to die, then it should be in as humane a manner as possible and practical. Fox hunting simply does not cut the mustard.
 

otaku

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#46
funkyfreo said:
The argument it does something effective is one you should just let go of Otaku;) But I can see where you are coming from on the rest. But it is just called humanity. If the cow is going to become steak anyway, then why not use it as a dart board for a while, poke its eyes out and skin it alive?
why not ideeed? tenderises the steak.

Where do you draw the line - and the line is pretty much fox hunting. It simply does not reflect the common society that most people want to live in. We live in a society where most believe that if an animal is to die, then it should be in as humane a manner as possible and practical. Fox hunting simply does not cut the mustard.
This is exactly what i am saying though. If you want it to be humane - then dont trap, bait or snare any vermin. It is no worse than fox hunting when it comes to cruelty.
 

funkyfreo

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#47
otaku said:
This is exactly what i am saying though. If you want it to be humane - then dont trap, bait or snare any vermin. It is no worse than fox hunting when it comes to cruelty.
And could you have imagined the chances of that getting through parliament? zero.

But as I say please forward your more humane killing inventions to the Fox lobby in the UK and I'm sure they will appreciate the time you have spent helping out the foxes:)

Personally I'm pretty confident that they are already snared and baited in as humanely a manner as possible - ie not with old syle jaw clamps.
 

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#48
otaku said:
yes, you did - i was trying to get at the attitude though.

And that cruel streak is visible in almost every contact sport, or sport with an element of danger. Should we ban all these?
I would be a little hypocritical espousing that on an Australian Rules board. I suppose I draw the line where inflicting injury (whether on human or animal) is the purpose of the sport rather than something that happens. For instance, I don't have a problem with horse racing, although horses do get hurt doing it; the purpose is to have the fastest horse, not to rip a horse to shreds.

Similarly in footy, the game is as much about the skill as the aggression - the aim is to outscore the opponents. Yeah, there's a bit of biff and like most footy supporters I like to see a good hip and shoulder or the like. However the game's purpose isn't seeing which team can hurt the other the most (Jonathan Brown aside ;)).

Boxing (and some other martial arts) where inflicting damage on your opponent is the name of the game steps over that line for me. The purpose is to hurt, and I find that barbaric.

otaku said:
It is also visible in commercial dealings (although it is less bloodlust and more powerlust - same basic emotion just expressed differently).
Indeed, and usually the people that do that are described as bastards by the general populace. Non-physical aggression is much harder to deal with than overt physical aggression.

otaku said:
To condemn fox hunting, and yet allowing equally bad sports or situation to continue is pointless. At least fox hunting does something effective.
I'd like to think I've been fairly consistant on this topic.
 

medusala

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Thread starter #49
There was an article on the Telegraph a couple of days ago detailing the breakdown of fox numbers. From memory it was something like 400k new ones born every year. Around 300k died of natural causes and the rest were shot or killed by hunts. With that many new ones I dont think they need to be farmed FF. Thus alot of people miss the point when they say foxes are killed for sport, they are killed as part of pest control. A dog killing a fox is natural. Other blood sports are not ie bear baiting where the bear is tied up, ******** fighting where spurs are put on their legs, bull fighting, coarsing etc. The fox has a sporting chance. He will often escape and he will often get shot if the dogs cant get to him. Ask a farmer who has just lost 40 chickens in one night to a fox where the difference lays in a fox killing his chickens and a dog killing the fox. Baiting is not the answer. It gets done is Tasmania and rare birds of prey like the wedge tail eagle end up getting killed. Death from poisoning is also a slow and painful death. It doesnt matter what snare you use the fox will still lay there until it starves to death, dies of gangrene, chews off its foot or the farmer eventually gets to it and shoots it. Getting killed by a dog is extremely quick. They grab the fox by the back of the neck and snap it.

Re those who say a majority of people want it banned. Well remember Tasmania banning homosexual acts? Parliament consistently voted against ending the ban but to the lefties that was a disgrace. This is simply an act of class eny by the lunatic left in the UK that has nothing to do with animal welfare. Blair realises this and that is why he didnt even bother to turn up and vote. When are they going to ban hens in battery cages? Mink coats, caviar, fishing, intensive pig farming etc?
 

funkyfreo

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#50
medusala said:
There was an article on the Telegraph a couple of days ago detailing the breakdown of fox numbers. From memory it was something like 400k new ones born every year. Around 300k died of natural causes and the rest were shot or killed by hunts. With that many new ones I dont think they need to be farmed FF. Thus alot of people miss the point when they say foxes are killed for sport, they are killed as part of pest control. A dog killing a fox is natural. Other blood sports are not ie bear baiting where the bear is tied up, ******** fighting where spurs are put on their legs, bull fighting, coarsing etc. The fox has a sporting chance. He will often escape and he will often get shot if the dogs cant get to him. Ask a farmer who has just lost 40 chickens in one night to a fox where the difference lays in a fox killing his chickens and a dog killing the fox. Baiting is not the answer. It gets done is Tasmania and rare birds of prey like the wedge tail eagle end up getting killed. Death from poisoning is also a slow and painful death. It doesnt matter what snare you use the fox will still lay there until it starves to death, dies of gangrene, chews off its foot or the farmer eventually gets to it and shoots it. Getting killed by a dog is extremely quick. They grab the fox by the back of the neck and snap it.

Re those who say a majority of people want it banned. Well remember Tasmania banning homosexual acts? Parliament consistently voted against ending the ban but to the lefties that was a disgrace. This is simply an act of class eny by the lunatic left in the UK that has nothing to do with animal welfare. Blair realises this and that is why he didnt even bother to turn up and vote. When are they going to ban hens in battery cages? Mink coats, caviar, fishing, intensive pig farming etc?
I never knew the lunatic left had an absolute majority in the Commons?

The funniest thing there is that ********, as in ******** fighting, gets censored:) See you can't even talk about ******** fighting on BF, let alone do it in real life.

Regardless of baiting or snaring, I don;t honestly believe that either Medders or Otaku want to ban them because they are inhumane, they are just making a pedantic point.
 
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