Random Discussion II

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thylacine60 said:
ever protested or walked in unison with someone worse off than you?
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How do you mean worse off than me? Financially? Mentally? Physically? Socially? What does that mean; Worse off than you?
It's far too simplistic and why do you pool in groups as being worse off and have such a disdain for 'suits'?

Everybody hurts in their own way and to be dismissive of an individual simply because of their perceived social status is somewhat.......you tell me.
 
HARKER said:
You're clearly one of the wiser ones, but this isn't going to be appreciated by the agenda-driven looking for opportunities to drive their bias home and good luck searching for facts over the opportunity to display outrage and moral positioning.

Here's an actual study looking into these matters, headed by Roland G Fryer (who happens to be an African American) - The whole document is in this link -

An Empirical Analysis of Racial Differences in Police Use of Force

Roland G. Fryer J. An Empirical Analysis of Racial Differences in Police Use of Force. Journal of Political Economy. Forthcoming.
scholar.harvard.edu scholar.harvard.edu

This is a summary -


No one is going to argue for police brutality and no one should applaud racism, but somewhere along the way facts should also come into account.
The paper does state that Hispanics and blacks are treated have a higher rate of force used against them in interactions. This of course shuld be looked at and acted upon evidence and not emotion.

Justice should be just that, not favouring one side (and god, don't we have so many sides) or another.
I trust that policeman gets his just desserts and I 'hope' other non-involved policemen and women (black and white, gay and straight, theist and non-theist) don't have to pay a price. This would be....unjust.
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The problem I have with your post is that you are quite actively picking out the extremely narrow - officer related shootings - in order to avoid the general; that people of colour experience the police via force more than white people do in America.

The reason this is a problem is that if typical interactions with officers lead them to deprive citizens of their freedom - by forcing compliance to their will - this causes escalation. People do not like being deprived of their freedom, and people especially do not like being forcibly complied; hence, the kid who got forcibly searched on his way to school learns that it doesn't matter what the police say but how they use their power over him, and he joins a gang for protection. The kid who's holding his mate's bag gets pinned because he's freaking out at police pointing their guns at him, and going to jail because they found an ounce of weed in his pocket.

We should be careful, though, when assessing the stuff that comes out of America at times like these. Their history with race is complex, and completely different to ours, and I despise people trying to translate American racial issues over here. We have enough of our own problems without importing their cultural hangups. Part of the problem here is that we lack the significant other within Australia; by and large, we don't have the large population of people who look different the way they do over there. We can't really understand what it's like over there, and we shouldn't assume. And I wish they'd extend us the same courtesy.

And I really, really wish the media would just heck off. Cover the story, yes; amplify it, supercharge it, broadcast it and perspectives on it and Trump's opinion versus someone else's opinion, and just heck off. It's awful, but we're in Australia. I'd love to be able to do something to alleviate the situation over there, but I can't. We have plenty of our own problems without being forced to have an opinion on the appalling state of American interracial relations.
 
Arr0w said:
What is never reported, with any gender/race is the level of resistance they show authorities

Make no mistake, what happened to Floyd was appalling and justice is warranted
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With respect, I couldn't disagree more.

Journalists exist to sensationalise whatever they can. You think that a trial with jury wouldn't potentially be tainted by a juror having witnessed the defendant actively seeking to avoid being arrested? Can you think of no reason why you would not want to have your freedom taken away?

It isn't often you'll see me supporting the status quo, but this is it.
 

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Gethelred said:
The problem I have with your post is that you are quite actively picking out the extremely narrow - officer related shootings - in order to avoid the general; that people of colour experience the police via force more than white people do in America.

The reason this is a problem is that if typical interactions with officers lead them to deprive citizens of their freedom - by forcing compliance to their will - this causes escalation. People do not like being deprived of their freedom, and people especially do not like being forcibly complied; hence, the kid who got forcibly searched on his way to school learns that it doesn't matter what the police say but how they use their power over him, and he joins a gang for protection. The kid who's holding his mate's bag gets pinned because he's freaking out at police pointing their guns at him, and going to jail because they found an ounce of weed in his pocket.

We should be careful, though, when assessing the stuff that comes out of America at times like these. Their history with race is complex, and completely different to ours, and I despise people trying to translate American racial issues over here. We have enough of our own problems without importing their cultural hangups. Part of the problem here is that we lack the significant other within Australia; by and large, we don't have the large population of people who look different the way they do over there. We can't really understand what it's like over there, and we shouldn't assume. And I wish they'd extend us the same courtesy.

And I really, really wish the media would just fu** off. Cover the story, yes; amplify it, supercharge it, broadcast it and perspectives on it and Trump's opinion versus someone else's opinion, and just fu** off. It's awful, but we're in Australia. I'd love to be able to do something to alleviate the situation over there, but I can't. We have plenty of our own problems without being forced to have an opinion on the appalling state of American interracial relations.
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You say 'We should be careful, though, when assessing the stuff that comes out of America at times like these.' I agree and this happens all the time.

It's not just America though. The same information, lack of information, misinformation is often controlled by many countries for many different reasons and that's via governments and media in particular. Social media too these days.
Look at the way Covid numbers are collated (I've kept a close eye on it) and you'll start to see how and why such numbers are communicated.

As for your first sentence: I didn't avoid anything and posted a study on the matter. Look at that study and extrapolate a picture that will show facts (possible facts) that are somewhat different to what we're being told are the facts.

It's a hard on to gauge though as every situation is different and if overt racism is truly at the core, this has to be addressed.....again....and again...until one day we just stop speaking about race (whether it be good or bad) and accept each other for the individuals we are and not to which group we fall into or are born into...and violence won't help.
 
Annoyed at idiots on Facebook saying we should have a BLM/George Floyd protest here in Australia.

As someone who has attended plenty of these protests in the past, I have heard of many shocking anecdotes about the horrific treatment of Aborigines at the hands of Australian Police.

Sadly Australia' s media do not seem to have the same cojones as many in the US media when it comes to reporting atrocities and crimes committed by a small but rogue element of Police Officers, who think they have the right to play judge, jury and executioner.

These protests and riots are happening because the citizens in the US are fed up of Police officers killing people of colour, the police who are meant to SERVE AND PROTECT the public.

A 14 year old kid was shot dead outside a 7/11 2 years ago by a police officer cauae he was brandishing some kind of toy that the cop thought was a gun..

The African-American community up until this point have shown admirable restraint, and quite frankly I am 100 % supportive of their anger and protests all over the US (not condoning the looting and property damage obviously, although I tend to think that a lot of it is done by indifferent people and pro Trump supporters)
 
Elmer_Judd said:
Annoyed at idiots on Facebook saying we should have a BLM/George Floyd protest here in Australia.

As someone who has attended plenty of these protests in the past, I have heard of many shocking anecdotes about the horrific treatment of Aborigines at the hands of Australian Police.

Sadly Australia' s media do not seem to have the same cojones as many in the US media when it comes to reporting atrocities and crimes committed by a small but rogue element of Police Officers, who think they have the right to play judge, jury and executioner.

These protests and riots are happening because the citizens in the US are fed up of Police officers killing people of colour, the police who are meant to SERVE AND PROTECT the public.

A 14 year old kid was shot dead outside a 7/11 2 years ago by a police officer cauae he was brandishing some kind of toy that the cop thought was a gun..

The African-American community up until this point have shown admirable restraint, and quite frankly I am 100 % supportive of their anger and protests all over the US (not condoning the looting and property damage obviously, although I tend to think that a lot of it is done by indifferent people and pro Trump supporters)
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Just on this point (our own back yard) I had the displeasure of meeting an ex-policeman, tuned salesman in the NT.

He had no issue telling us that they'd take Aboriginal individuals into the bush and shoot them. He wasn't joking either.
This was just an easy way to 'fix' a situation. This guy was in the car with us for an extended period. Must say it crossed my mind, to take him into the bush and deliver some said 'justice' I wouldn't do it, but it was the fantasy I had about him.
 
HARKER said:
You say 'We should be careful, though, when assessing the stuff that comes out of America at times like these.' I agree and this happens all the time.

It's not just America though. The same information, lack of information, misinformation is often controlled by many countries for many different reasons and that's via governments and media in particular. Social media too these days.
Look at the way Covid numbers are collated (I've kept a close eye on it) and you'll start to see how and why such numbers are communicated.
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You're looking at it as governments controlling the flow of information; while that does happen - and is definitely happening in this instance - that isn't quite what I meant.

Countries have a history, a baggage they bring with them to each particular crisis they face. When we look at the world's response to the rise of Nazi Germany, what we see is a multitude of European states weary of war and thus doing anything to avoid it. But when we look at America, we see a country unbloodied, isolationist, proud and perfectly content to sit to one side and allow Europe to duke it out. Their individualism as a culture came out in their response, and only when their pride was stung did they embark on 'winning' the war.

America's handling of this - from both sides of their political spectrum - emerges not out of their desire to control the narrative, but from how they have reacted in the past. Their culture controls their response.
As for your first sentence: I didn't avoid anything and posted a study on the matter. Look at that study and extrapolate a picture that will show facts (possible facts) that are somewhat different to what we're being told are the facts.
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Look at what I said; you used the specific - that in shootings, there is no racial difference in exposure to police force - to avoid the general. You then implied that there was an element of untruth, a narrative being purported that was unsupported by your study based of the specific, rather than the general.

It's a hard on to gauge though as every situation is different and if overt racism is truly at the core, this has to be addressed.....again....and again...until one day we just stop speaking about race (whether it be good or bad) and accept each other for the individuals we are and not to which group we fall into.
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Agreed. i do think that notions of difference will haunt humanity in one form of another forever. It's the price we pay for cognition.
 
HARKER said:
Just on this point (our own back yard) I had the displeasure of meeting an ex-policeman, tuned salesman in the NT.

He had no issue telling us that they'd take Aboriginal individuals into the bush and shoot them. He wasn't joking either.
This was just an easy way to 'fix' a situation. This guy was in the car with us for an extended period. Must say it crossed my mind, to take him into the bush and deliver some said 'justice' I wouldn't do it, but it was the fantasy I had about him.
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Christ Almighty, thanks for sharing Harks.
If only Mick Taylor (Wolf Creek) was real, that 'bloke would be a worthy candidate for Mick's style of 'justice' ...
 
Gethelred said:
You're looking at it as governments controlling the flow of information; while that does happen - and is definitely happening in this instance - that isn't quite what I meant.

Countries have a history, a baggage they bring with them to each particular crisis they face. When we look at the world's response to the rise of Nazi Germany, what we see is a multitude of European states weary of war and thus doing anything to avoid it. But when we look at America, we see a country unbloodied, isolationist, proud and perfectly content to sit to one side and allow Europe to duke it out. Their individualism as a culture came out in their response, and only when their pride was stung did they embark on 'winning' the war.

America's handling of this - from both sides of their political spectrum - emerges not out of their desire to control the narrative, but from how they have reacted in the past. Their culture controls their response.

Look at what I said; you used the specific - that in shootings, there is no racial difference in exposure to police force - to avoid the general. You then implied that there was an element of untruth, a narrative being purported that was unsupported by your study based of the specific, rather than the general.


Agreed. i do think that notions of difference will haunt humanity in one form of another forever. It's the price we pay for cognition.
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'Countries have a history' That's way too broad a topic to even start on and my learnings of history is relatively poor compared to others, but even with knowledge, there will always be two sides to the story.......and even then, learned history may not exactly be the real story, or at least the full and objective view of history. That's extreme I know, but I do know that history can be written and then rewritten.


This is what I put forward earlier:
This paper explores racial differences in police use of force. On non-lethal uses of force, blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to experience some form of force in interactions with police. Adding controls that account for important context and civilian behavior reduces, but cannot fully explain, these disparities. On the most extreme use of force –officer-involved shootings – we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account. We argue that the patterns in the data are consistent with a model in which police officers are utility maximizers, a fraction of which have a preference for discrimination, who incur relatively high expected costs of officer-involved shootings.

Now we're going into dangerous territory, but can it be possible that in the first point, Hispanics and Blacks may be more likely to resist interactions with police? Look, I'm not going to argue that racism doesn't exist, because it does. In fact I think we all have our biases and we prove that over and again, whether it be perceived a good bias or a bad one.
One the above point though, one would need to explore every situation and then make a judgement on information at hand.
The highlighted point though is interesting, is it not, should it be the case, because this isn't what we're being communicated?

Things will change but they'll only change when our ambitions are higher than they are now.
It's quite ridiculous for us to considered ourselves civilised when we're so far away from that, it's a joke...but that makes for another topic. :)
 
Elmer_Judd said:
Christ Almighty, thanks for sharing Harks.
If only Mick Taylor (Wolf Creek) was real, that 'bloke would be a worthy candidate for Mick's style of 'justice' ...
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I wish I didn't have the knowledge of such things happening, although I would have liked to have done something about it, but what?
Go to the authorities and relate a story. My friends and I discussed this but where to go and what's it going to mean? It's just a story.

This was around 25 years ago, when we did regular drives from Melbourne to Darwin
 
HARKER said:
'Countries have a history' That's way too broad a topic to even start on and my learnings of history is relatively poor compared to others, but even with knowledge, there will always be two sides to the story.......and even then, learned history may not exactly be the real story, or at least the full and objective view of history. That's extreme I know, but I do know that history can be written and then rewritten.
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History is my field, I majored in it. There are innumerate sides to any given part of it, and what we know of any event that is considered historical is constructed. Written or rewritten isn't actually a thing; all history is built from depictions of it. Uncovering new accounts, using new sources, etc; all of it functions to add to the preexisting record.

This is what I put forward earlier:
This paper explores racial differences in police use of force. On non-lethal uses of force, blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to experience some form of force in interactions with police. Adding controls that account for important context and civilian behavior reduces, but cannot fully explain, these disparities. On the most extreme use of force –officer-involved shootings – we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account. We argue that the patterns in the data are consistent with a model in which police officers are utility maximizers, a fraction of which have a preference for discrimination, who incur relatively high expected costs of officer-involved shootings.
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Your bolding is your narrowing of the focus, from general force/non lethal use of force to officer involved shootings. It's this I'm disputing, considering how the quote opens: "On non-lethal uses of force, blacks and hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to experience some for of force in interactions with police.
Now we're going into dangerous territory, but can it be possible that in the first point, Hispanics and Blacks may be more likely to resist interactions with police? Look, I'm not going to argue that racism doesn't exist, because it does. In fact I think we all have our biases and we prove that over and again, whether it be perceived a good bias or a bad one.
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... which is why the narrowing of the above is bad. Interactions with the police colour future interactions with them. People accumulate experiences, and they form assumptions. If you've been mistreated by police, you are less likely to see them and their interactions with you or others as justified. Making an explanation for the discrepancy of the kind you've made above - and, to be fair, I've made here - is bad science. We should not move from data to interpretation so swiftly, and we should definitively not form perspectives on this so spuriously.

Essentially, I'm accusing you of misreading the study selectively to make the point your making, whether you're doing it deliberately or not.
One the above point though, one would need to explore every situation and then make a judgement on information at hand.
The highlighted point though is interesting, is it not, should it be the case, because this isn't what we're being communicated?
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Not really. It's a single piece of data in a study collecting data. Data that finds similar things to what most have found in this area. Now, you can point to this and say, "We're not being told this!" but at the end of it, what you're arguing with is not the science but with how the science is depicted. And I'll get on that bandwagon until the end of time; people use studies and their findings and the statistics contained within them selectively to create outrage and to generate page views all the ******* time. But at the end of it all, studies need to be considered in their entirety, and all of the information contained herein needs to be considered.

Ostensibly, we don't know enough in this area.

Things will change but they'll only change when our ambitions are higher than they are now.
It's quite ridiculous for us to considered ourselves civilised when we're so far away from that, it's a joke...but that makes for another topic. :)
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That's a depressing view of the world.

At all times, the cup is half full or half empty. We are essentially living in one of the best periods in human history, despite the fact that the news shouts how terrible things are every fifty minutes. There are and will always be problems, but civilisation or its lack is a notion that doesn't bother me too much. Let's just focus on making things better around us, and move on from there.
 
thylacine60 said:
Stephen Quartermain
@Quartermain10
May 31

"Australia ain’t perfect. But compared to most, we truly are the lucky country".

Spoken by a true middle class, white, male suit.
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Is there more context to this? Or is it just in general? And why are you so opposed to this?
I would fit the bill of a white, middle-class suit. What is wrong with us?
Trying to understand where this hatred comes from?
 

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Gethelred said:
That's a depressing view of the world.

At all times, the cup is half full or half empty. We are essentially living in one of the best periods in human history, despite the fact that the news shouts how terrible things are every fifty minutes. There are and will always be problems, but civilisation or its lack is a notion that doesn't bother me too much. Let's just focus on making things better around us, and move on from there.
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You write too much. Have I ever told you this? Seriously, though; Good for you for endeavouring to engage discourse.
No one knows everything, no matter how much we may think we do at times.

It's my level of interest. Politics I really don't care about, although it's hard to map out the future of civilisation without knowing how we position ourselves to get to a 'better place'
When I was 10 I went to bed every night trying to figure out how to get to the end of the universe and what's beyond it. Still haven't got there but I'm trying and have my own ideas in place.

I also don't think it's a depressing view of the world as much as it is a real one.
What are we doing? Surviving, sleeping, eating, propagating and for what? Retirement and a death where we wished we had our time all over again. :)

When our ambitions are greater than they are now, our lives will change for the better.
My best guesstimate is we have another 500 odd years to go. Can't wait. :)
 
HARKER said:
You write too much. Have I ever told you this? Seriously, though; Good for you for endeavouring to engage discourse.
No one knows everything, no matter how much we may think we do at times.

It's my level of interest. Politics I really don't care about, although it's hard to map out the future of civilisation without knowing how we position ourselves to get to a 'better place'
When I was 10 I went to bed every night trying to figure out how to get to the end of the universe and what's beyond it. Still haven't got there but I'm trying and have my own ideas in place.

I also don't think it's a depressing view of the world as much as it is a real one.
What are we doing? Surviving, sleeping, eating, propagating and for what? Retirement and a death where we wished we had our time all over again. :)

When our ambitions are greater than they are now, our lives will change for the better.
My best guesstimate is we have another 500 odd years to go. Can't wait. :)
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Nah.

Meaning is where you find it. Everything is as comical or tragic as you view it to be. And while I'm not going to be able to live my entire life doing what I want, I've got it a lot better than my parents, and they had it better than theirs.

And what're you talking about, death and retirement. As far as I'm concerned, I'm living forever.
 
Gethelred said:
Nah.

Meaning is where you find it. Everything is as comical or tragic as you view it to be. And while I'm not going to be able to live my entire life doing what I want, I've got it a lot better than my parents, and they had it better than theirs.

And what're you talking about, death and retirement. As far as I'm concerned, I'm living forever.
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Mmm. You may be onto a good notion there.
I've been exploring that possibility also. Want to do DMT with me? :)
 
I see Australia has slipped into recession. I have to declare that this is an admission of a current circumstance that’s been the case for a large percentage of the population for a number of years. So to all you rich buggers out there welcome to our world.

How are we going to get out of this? I’ll leave that to the experts however my advice is spend more money. Imagine being one of those people (and families) who have been left out of the recent handouts and who continue to be ignored by the Federal Government. It’s a national disgrace that we demonstrate our lack of humanity towards so many vulnerable individuals and families.

The initial economic response encouraged me. The inertia concerning decision making that I’m seeing at the moment when economic stimulus is the best course of action is very worrying. Now is not the time to listen to the lifters because these groups will always say that we need the money more than others. Think about the vulnerable. Begging for help is souls destroying.
 
Robbo's my hero said:
I see Australia has slipped into recession. I have to declare that this is an admission of a current circumstance that’s been the case for a large percentage of the population for a number of years. So to all you rich buggers out there welcome to our world.

How are we going to get out of this? I’ll leave that to the experts however my advice is spend more money. Imagine being one of those people (and families) who have been left out of the recent handouts and who continue to be ignored by the Federal Government. It’s a national disgrace that we demonstrate our lack of humanity towards so many vulnerable individuals and families.

The initial economic response encouraged me. The inertia concerning decision making that I’m seeing at the moment when economic stimulus is the best course of action is very worrying. Now is not the time to listen to the lifters because these groups will always say that we need the money more than others. Think about the vulnerable. Begging for help is souls destroying.
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I hear you Robbo, so let's do something.
My issue with many, is that they can't help themselves flying a flag for others, but what do we really do when people aren't watching? More words...no actions?

Yesterdays discussions here gave me an idea, I'll be taking up. I may and likely will fail, but I'm going to give this idea a chance to breathe.

There are a lot of hard times ahead of so many and if others want to get involved for a cause that really means something, maybe people will listen.
Want to throw ideas around? Let's go and see what comes about.....but let's just not complain and posture.
 
Gethelred said:
With respect, I couldn't disagree more.

Journalists exist to sensationalise whatever they can. You think that a trial with jury wouldn't potentially be tainted by a juror having witnessed the defendant actively seeking to avoid being arrested? Can you think of no reason why you would not want to have your freedom taken away?

It isn't often you'll see me supporting the status quo, but this is it.
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Media report the act purportrated, but void of the lead up in most cases.

Why? Well they prefer the sensationalism
 
Gethelred said:
You know as well as I do, retaliation invites the umpires' attention more than instigation does.
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Depends on the act though.

I doubt Chauvin (what an unfortunate name. Maybe unfinished?) will escape the umpires attention.
In fact his punishment may be more than it would have been, had have the eyes of the world not been on him.
 
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