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SaintsSeptember

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Fattening cattle in feed lots is not restricted to the US we do it as well although not to the same extent.

It’s an interesting practice as it produces a different product which I guess is down to conditioning the consumer. I’m not a fan basically it takes about 2 kilos of grain often fit for human consumption and a lot of water to produce 1 extra kilo of beef. I’m assuming those figures are true as I worked in the admin side for the responsible commonwealth department for 15 years. A vet who was against the practice quoted me those figures and I had an uncle who was an executive with one of their bigger companies in the US confirm it.

Gringo great stuff and about time people realised what’s going on with the land. I don’t want to start WW3 but this is inconsistent with the original occupants behind great custodians of the land so it seems to be largely ignored.

I can’t understand what the beef is with the church, fill in the denomination yourselves. Yes they own a lot of property, property that was often paid for by the congregation when suburbs were first being settled. My parish has two churches, a primary school and the st Kilda city mission. They do imo a great job and are entitled to the tax free status, just try and replace the services they provide and then check the costs. What are people proposing that churches, hospitals, schools etc should be taxed or sold off to fund what?. Interestingly a recent study found that loneliness was a greater risk factor to peoples health than obesity etc yet here we are advocating to punish organisations that do a power of work to combat that sense of isolation.

Climate change whatever the cause has been noticeable to most people for decades, anything individuals can do they should but until it’s one in all in for every country on the globe then it’s largely just a gesture. Stupid UN sponsored deals where two ancient civilisations with huge standing armies, nuclear weapons and space programs being able to continue to increase their emissions and get a massive handout off the likes of us is no deal at all imo. I have great faith in our ability to innovate under pressure, we’ve done it in the past from the civil war to WW11. I read something recently that said we were locked in a race with the Chinese to produce the first geo stationary solar farms in space that would be capable of providing us with unlimited cheap clean power.
To me a lot of it is about overall efficiency and consumerism. Ii think Australia can facilitate it and benefit.

Do we need to make steel? Lets say yes.
Where is the most efficient place to make the steel from an emissions point of view? Near to the iron mine.
Do we need to burn a lot of Coal to make it? No New technology has methods of using electric power to make Steele.
Are area's near the Iron mine feasible for solar electricity? Yes.

As the material is further refined, it makes more sense to ship the material elsewhere for processing and manufacturing.

But then what are we doing with it?
We buy a washing machine. It might have LED's and crap and a direct drive inverter motor, but it doesn't actually wash clothes better than the old
Look at the washing machines in launderettes. They are built to be flogged and most of the components can be quickly and easily replaced.
We are suckers for wanting something new and Shinier. American companies like Hoover really thrived on it. ( Hoover were offered the purchase of the Dyson design, they later expressed regret that they didn't buy it and put it on ice, it ruined their business model of selling the same old crap in a new style and convincing people they were better, and selling lots of paper bags ).

Cars are now cheaper than ever before. They are good too, but we throw them away more than ever. Less jobs for mechanics. Repair/cost vs replacement cost ration is not favourable. Anyone remember when Engine reconditioning used to be a thing when you hit 300 000k's?
The typical 2 car family that used to have a Commodore and a 1.6L Corolla now has a 3 Tonne Monster truck ( for those days when the supermarket carpark is boggy ) and a 2 Litre Corolla that weighs as much as a VC Commodore. Engine efficiency, electric, or whatever is one thing, but the actual energy needed is a function of the mass of the vehicle. It takes twice as much energy to accelerate a vehicle that weighs twice as much.

Apple, every card carrying green's choice of mobile device, got busted programming in planned obsolescence . Lots of people believed their BS excuse because they wanted to.

Building items , such as double glazed windows, ( triple is becoming the norm in the colder parts of europe ). come at a heavy premium in Australia, discouraging its use.

But once again, it has to be part of a global solution.
If we found a way of stopping all of Australia's emissions, it would not noticeably slow down global warming.

I don't believe that anyone will follow our lead. Like it or not ,we are not significant.
Look at workplace health and safety and welfare. It was not "ooh look how good they are in Australia , we can do that " that put pressure on.
It was " NIKE , your shoes are made in sweatshops, what are you going to do about it? If you don't fix it AMERICAN consumers will stop buying them".

Here's a pen stroke decision hardly anyone has made.
Most countries allow concessions, regarding drivers licences , registration etc, for people buying a motorbike with less than 50cc.
Because 50cc is bugger all , they make them with 2 strokes, which have more power than a 50cc 4 stroke. BUT these scooters put out something like 6 times the amount of CO2 as a 4 stroke, and a hell of a lot more of the other pollutants.
Something like a 90cc posty bike engine, is more powerful, more economical and far better for the environment. The difference in costs nowdays, is negligible.
So you simply change your concessional law from 50cc to 100cc, BUT you ban the registration of new 2 strokes on the road.
EVERYONE is happy. No-one loses, but they haven't done it because they are too stupid. ( Except California ).
It wouldn't make much difference in Australia , but go and try breathing the city air in some places in Asia.
 

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Pakenhamsaint

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I hope IBAC nails a few. Casey could do with a big clean out.
Speaking of.
Seems rather convenient to bugger off overseas the moment you get served a search warrant............
 

StFly

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Speaking of.
Seems rather convenient to bugger off overseas the moment you get served a search warrant............
Gotta detour via the Caymans to check on the nest egg after all...
 

pebblesofsand

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They purchased a heap of stuff at full retail. Please extrapolate to the nation and tell me what you find.

Yeah solar is free , lets play that game. Why don't you just run along and give everyone solar.
Feds buying in as well now.

The expanded battery now seems like its capable of replicating the role usually played by coal generators in stabilising the system. So wind and solar electricity can be produced more cheaply than new coal, and can now be coupled with battery technology which provides not only storage capacity but also the capacity to regulate the system.


 

SaintsSeptember

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Feds buying in as well now.

The expanded battery now seems like its capable of replicating the role usually played by coal generators in stabilising the system. So wind and solar electricity can be produced more cheaply than new coal, and can now be coupled with battery technology which provides not only storage capacity but also the capacity to regulate the system.


Replicating is absolutely the wrong word.
Its designed to store and release energy from erratic power supplies.

That's the trouble with solar for example.
Yes the generation cost is virtually free but you need the capital cost twice over.
if you want a 100Mw supply you need way more than 200Mw capacity, and then you need to be able to store 100Mw overnight.
The bigger the total amount of solar the bigger the problem.

Hazelwood Power Station was able to supply up to 1600MW day in day out.
Yallourn produces 1450 continuously.
Loy Yang produces 2200.

The existing tesla battery ( before the expansion discussed in the article ) can supply 129 MW for ONE HOUR .
When they say it replicates a coal plant, it means it can buffer the wind turbines, to give a steady output like a coal station.
Essentially it is the expensive fix for the governments unbalanced power supply.

129 MW for ONE hour, compared to the output of Yallourn and Loy Yang.
Like i said do the maths.
We need a bigger solution than Elon and his magic show.
 

Grav

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Fires, fires & more f***ing fires, sitting here in the little township of Crows Nest Qld on fire watch, firies have worked throughout the night back burning about 3km away ( fires been going for nearly a week now) won’t be the first & won’t be the last being in a situation like this. 14,000 hectares of land burnt up until Monday and that little blue dam in the middle is the main water supply to the city of Toowoomba. Keep your fingers crossed for us guys.

F49B15FC-AEDF-4473-91BA-83AA19607FEB.jpeg
 

St Muir

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Fires, fires & more f***ing fires, sitting here in the little township of Crows Nest Qld on fire watch, firies have worked throughout the night back burning about 3km away ( fires been going for nearly a week now) won’t be the first & won’t be the last being in a situation like this. 14,000 hectares of land burnt up until Monday and that little blue dam in the middle is the main water supply to the city of Toowoomba. Keep your fingers crossed for us guys.

View attachment 781867
Hang in there mate. Crows Nest is a beautiful part of the country. I live near Brisbane, so been spared the worst of it but the smoke was horrendous until we got a little rain a couple of days ago. A couple of my favourite bush walks have gone up in recent weeks.
I can remember when we used to get consistent Spring rain. It’s probably a couple of decades since we’ve had that now.
 

pebblesofsand

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Replicating is absolutely the wrong word.
Its designed to store and release energy from erratic power supplies.

That's the trouble with solar for example.
Yes the generation cost is virtually free but you need the capital cost twice over.
if you want a 100Mw supply you need way more than 200Mw capacity, and then you need to be able to store 100Mw overnight.
The bigger the total amount of solar the bigger the problem.

Hazelwood Power Station was able to supply up to 1600MW day in day out.
Yallourn produces 1450 continuously.
Loy Yang produces 2200.

The existing tesla battery ( before the expansion discussed in the article ) can supply 129 MW for ONE HOUR .
When they say it replicates a coal plant, it means it can buffer the wind turbines, to give a steady output like a coal station.
Essentially it is the expensive fix for the governments unbalanced power supply.

129 MW for ONE hour, compared to the output of Yallourn and Loy Yang.
Like i said do the maths.
We need a bigger solution than Elon and his magic show.
I did not say it replaced the role coal/hydro/gas generators play in stabilising the system so replicate is absolutely the correct word.

I did not say that it had the same generation capacity as c/g/h.

What the battery is doing is demonstrating how new technologies are now helping in the transition from CO2 intensive electricity generation to renewable energy.

And that in a word is "innovation."

As to generating capacity - yep still a long way to go to fully replace coal but it is interesting to note that despite massive increases in population, the average coal-fired generation of electricity (combined black and brown coal-fired generation) dropped to its lowest quarterly level since 1998.

So the downward trend continues.
 

gringo2011

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Replicating is absolutely the wrong word.
Its designed to store and release energy from erratic power supplies.

That's the trouble with solar for example.
Yes the generation cost is virtually free but you need the capital cost twice over.
if you want a 100Mw supply you need way more than 200Mw capacity, and then you need to be able to store 100Mw overnight.
The bigger the total amount of solar the bigger the problem.

Hazelwood Power Station was able to supply up to 1600MW day in day out.
Yallourn produces 1450 continuously.
Loy Yang produces 2200.

The existing tesla battery ( before the expansion discussed in the article ) can supply 129 MW for ONE HOUR .
When they say it replicates a coal plant, it means it can buffer the wind turbines, to give a steady output like a coal station.
Essentially it is the expensive fix for the governments unbalanced power supply.

129 MW for ONE hour, compared to the output of Yallourn and Loy Yang.
Like i said do the maths.
We need a bigger solution than Elon and his magic show.

My mate works for AGL and he reckons that SA will be the first state to stand alone on 100% renewables and will be a net exporter in the next couple of years. He talked engineering and my eyes glazed over but he worked with wind turbines and in fracking. He's no pie in the sky type, but he says they are going to have plenty and very soon. They have a mass of wind turbines mostly, some solar.

I think they also build storage in too all new public housing initiatives too. They are a long way down the path.
 

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Crusty Undies

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Replicating is absolutely the wrong word.
Its designed to store and release energy from erratic power supplies.

That's the trouble with solar for example.
Yes the generation cost is virtually free but you need the capital cost twice over.
if you want a 100Mw supply you need way more than 200Mw capacity, and then you need to be able to store 100Mw overnight.
The bigger the total amount of solar the bigger the problem.

Hazelwood Power Station was able to supply up to 1600MW day in day out.
Yallourn produces 1450 continuously.
Loy Yang produces 2200.

The existing tesla battery ( before the expansion discussed in the article ) can supply 129 MW for ONE HOUR .
When they say it replicates a coal plant, it means it can buffer the wind turbines, to give a steady output like a coal station.
Essentially it is the expensive fix for the governments unbalanced power supply.

129 MW for ONE hour, compared to the output of Yallourn and Loy Yang.
Like i said do the maths.
We need a bigger solution than Elon and his magic show.
What is it with hating on Elon Musk? The guy is literally trying to save the world by getting rid of the energy sources currently killing it and people are really out here calling him a charlatan or something?
 

SaintsSeptember

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What is it with hating on Elon Musk? The guy is literally trying to save the world by getting rid of the energy sources currently killing it and people are really out here calling him a charlatan or something?
No he's not .
He's selling his storage devices.
He doesn't have much at all to do with energy production.
 

bergholt

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Replicating is absolutely the wrong word.
Its designed to store and release energy from erratic power supplies.

That's the trouble with solar for example.
Yes the generation cost is virtually free but you need the capital cost twice over.
if you want a 100Mw supply you need way more than 200Mw capacity, and then you need to be able to store 100Mw overnight.
The bigger the total amount of solar the bigger the problem.

Hazelwood Power Station was able to supply up to 1600MW day in day out.
Yallourn produces 1450 continuously.
Loy Yang produces 2200.

The existing tesla battery ( before the expansion discussed in the article ) can supply 129 MW for ONE HOUR .
When they say it replicates a coal plant, it means it can buffer the wind turbines, to give a steady output like a coal station.
Essentially it is the expensive fix for the governments unbalanced power supply.

129 MW for ONE hour, compared to the output of Yallourn and Loy Yang.
Like i said do the maths.
We need a bigger solution than Elon and his magic show.
You're not thinking long-term.

Long-term coal generation is only going to get more expensive. The price of coal increases as it gets more scarce, and not much research is going into efficiency improvements (across the world).

While solar/wind/whatever is only going to get cheaper. The actual inputs are free (or very cheap if you consider rural land to be an input), and the technology is continually improving. (Batteries as part of that considering they're an essential part of a renewable system as you say.)

So yes there's a lot to do but there's no future in betting on coal, renewables are ahead now and only getting further ahead.

I think you're alluding to nuclear but because that's also based on scarce inputs, and has the waste disposal cost as well, I can't see how it gets cheaper fast.
 

SaintsSeptember

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You're not thinking long-term.

Long-term coal generation is only going to get more expensive. The price of coal increases as it gets more scarce, and not much research is going into efficiency improvements (across the world).

While solar/wind/whatever is only going to get cheaper. The actual inputs are free (or very cheap if you consider rural land to be an input), and the technology is continually improving. (Batteries as part of that considering they're an essential part of a renewable system as you say.)

So yes there's a lot to do but there's no future in betting on coal, renewables are ahead now and only getting further ahead.

I think you're alluding to nuclear but because that's also based on scarce inputs, and has the waste disposal cost as well, I can't see how it gets cheaper fast.
I wasn't really alluding to anything, though i liked the Idea of Australia as a total nuclear solution, rather than a Uranium mine. I think a lot of people would be surprised at how little uranium and subsequent waste, is used to generate a huge amount of electricity. If its OK for us to have Uranium ore in the ground, then its just as OK to have the waste there, its all about management.

I tend to be a bit wary about Tesla products , because they tend to take a gimmicky approach. For example why would i want my storage battery on my lounge room wall any more than i'd want my hot water service there.

Energy storage will be needed for Solar installations, and Tesla are quick and easy to install. What is a bit unsure is how long they will last.
A lot of the effort going into battery development at Tesla was specifically for vehicle related functions, such as low weight. I'm not sure how many of their developments have made them particularly suitable for these enormous UPS units.

The operation of the batteries in S.A. seems to be driven by the the grid pricing. Like someone playing the stock exchange they simply buy electricity ( charge the battery ) when its cheap, and sell when the price is high.
The more this sort of crap goes on the more i wonder if its a good idea to go off grid.


Government/Operators buy PV cells and put them on a farm somewhere a few hundred KM away.
Operator sells electricity to the grid , and makes a tidy profit.
Infrastructure Owner transmits power to my house, massive maintenance and capital costs but they still make a tidy profit.
Government/Operator buy a big battery to hold 20 minutes worth of power, for when the grid fails to cope. They sell when the price is right and make a tidy profit.


VS:

I put a heap of solar on my roof and buy a big battery and a backup generator that runs efficiently on diesel.
I tell them all to stick their tidy profits up their asses. You wouldn't spend more than $30 000 and the ongoing costs would be negligible.
The only difference is that i probably wont be able to buy PV cells and batteries at the same favourable rates as large operators.
But as we know in the age of online sales, margins for end users are getting more favourable.

Now ,what isn't really viable for home generation is wind power.
So if its in our interest to use this resource the government need to find a way to get it to us without the price gouging.
 

bergholt

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I wasn't really alluding to anything, though i liked the Idea of Australia as a total nuclear solution, rather than a Uranium mine. I think a lot of people would be surprised at how little uranium and subsequent waste, is used to generate a huge amount of electricity. If its OK for us to have Uranium ore in the ground, then its just as OK to have the waste there, its all about management.
That's the problem IMO. The management of the waste would end up privatised because everything does, and then you'd end up with some shonk who leases a bush block, digs a hole, dumps it there, then fu**s off to Guatemala. Uranium ore is buried deep in places where people don't live, it's a bit different.

The operation of the batteries in S.A. seems to be driven by the the grid pricing. Like someone playing the stock exchange they simply buy electricity ( charge the battery ) when its cheap, and sell when the price is high.
The more this sort of crap goes on the more i wonder if its a good idea to go off grid.
The grid pricing is a pretty direct reflection of demand, right? The behaviour it's intended to drive is stabilisation of the grid. When it's cheap, there's a surplus; when it's expensive, there's a deficit. The battery sucks up the surplus and props up the deficit. Seems like a successful application of economic theory to me.

Government/Operators buy PV cells and put them on a farm somewhere a few hundred KM away.
Operator sells electricity to the grid , and makes a tidy profit.
Infrastructure Owner transmits power to my house, massive maintenance and capital costs but they still make a tidy profit.
Government/Operator buy a big battery to hold 20 minutes worth of power, for when the grid fails to cope. They sell when the price is right and make a tidy profit.


VS:

I put a heap of solar on my roof and buy a big battery and a backup generator that runs efficiently on diesel.
I tell them all to stick their tidy profits up their asses. You wouldn't spend more than $30 000 and the ongoing costs would be negligible.
The only difference is that i probably wont be able to buy PV cells and batteries at the same favourable rates as large operators.
But as we know in the age of online sales, margins for end users are getting more favourable.
Sure, it's just more capital investment, more maintenance cost, more risk exposure, less flexibility. You have to stump up the initial $30k (or whatever); you have to pay to get the things fixed each year or whatever, unpredictably; if something goes wrong it's an emergency just for you and you have sort it out yourself; if you suddenly need more power because you just bought another TV, and your system isn't big enough, you have to start turning things off.

By that rationale you should also grow all your own crops - save on the profit margins of farmers, retailers, supermarkets, trucking companies, etc. Make your own clothes and furniture, may as well make your own computers as well.

There's a reason we don't do all that stuff ourselves - a company specialised in doing it should be able to do it better than we can ourselves.
 

Stewart66

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You're not thinking long-term.

Long-term coal generation is only going to get more expensive. The price of coal increases as it gets more scarce, and not much research is going into efficiency improvements (across the world).

While solar/wind/whatever is only going to get cheaper. The actual inputs are free (or very cheap if you consider rural land to be an input), and the technology is continually improving. (Batteries as part of that considering they're an essential part of a renewable system as you say.)

So yes there's a lot to do but there's no future in betting on coal, renewables are ahead now and only getting further ahead.

I think you're alluding to nuclear but because that's also based on scarce inputs, and has the waste disposal cost as well, I can't see how it gets cheaper fast.

Solar would have cost nothing these days if had not been hijacked by Lobbyists all over the world.
USA were going Solar ..in the days of Jimmy Carter got hijacked by Oil Lobby .
Not going in it all Governments are at fault ..just greed look up article by Michael West ..Liberal / Labor / Nats
just greed and corruption throughout the years .
Just a little thing travelled the world for 38 years ..this technology was being used in Middle East .
30 years ago...every light pole had Solar panel on top of it , no wires anywhere everything under ground
at the same time in Alice Springs everything was on diesel..think about that .
One Solar farm in Northern Territory will power Singapore ...in the future.
Instead of farming like we have done for 100 years we are followers in this nation any visionary person
is replaced by self interest .

Good night & Good Luck ........great movie by the way
 
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SaintsSeptember

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Solar would have cost nothing these days if had not been hijacked by Lobbyists all over the world.
USA were going Solar ..in the days of Jimmy Carter got hijacked by Oil Lobby .
Not going in it all Governments are at fault ..just greed look up article by Michael West ..Liberal / Labor / Nats
just greed and corruption throughout the years .
Just a little thing travelled the world for 38 years ..this technology was being used in Middle East .
30 years ago...every light pole had Solar panel on top of it , no wires anywhere everything under ground
at the same time in Alice Springs everything was on diesel..think about that .
One Solar farm in Northern Territory will power Singapore ...in the future.
Instead of farming like we have done for 100 years we are followers in this nation any visionary person
is replaced by self interest .

Good night & Good Luck ........great movie by the way
You mean the Arabs who sold all that oil had the money to afford hideously expensive solar panels for their lights. ?

Sorry most of that is conspiracy theory stuff.

One of the biggest technology breakthroughs was the development of cheap solid state converter technology.
Before that it was pretty tricky to connect to the grid. Especially wind generators.
 
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bergholt

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Do we need to make steel? Lets say yes.
Where is the most efficient place to make the steel from an emissions point of view? Near to the iron mine.
Do we need to burn a lot of Coal to make it? No New technology has methods of using electric power to make Steele.
Are area's near the Iron mine feasible for solar electricity? Yes.

Just saw this one - solar can be used directly to generate the heat to make steel (or cement or other high-temperature manufacturing processes). Australia should jump on this.
 

Stewart66

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Just saw this one - solar can be used directly to generate the heat to make steel (or cement or other high-temperature manufacturing processes). Australia should jump on this.

Mr Gupta in Whyalla ...very very smart operator will change that part of the country.

People in this country would be pretty embarrassed if they travelled more and saw the technology elsewhere.
 

SaintsSeptember

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Just saw this one - solar can be used directly to generate the heat to make steel (or cement or other high-temperature manufacturing processes). Australia should jump on this.
Absolutely, they have the tech, we have the ore, Joint venture waiting to happen.

But we always seem to be just the workshed for someone else.
GM and Ford, we were just cheap labor, and never got above that.
Our university's developed new Carbon FIbre manufacturing tech, its all gone offshore.
 

gringo2011

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Absolutely, they have the tech, we have the ore, Joint venture waiting to happen.

But we always seem to be just the workshed for someone else.
GM and Ford, we were just cheap labor, and never got above that.
Our university's developed new Carbon FIbre manufacturing tech, its all gone offshore.

We do no value adding as far as our resources go. We sell it all off for cents and skim a royalty off the top. We aren't a smart nation.

One of the best examples of our stupidity was when the government tried to get a pulp mill built in the Tamar valley. The farmers spent years building brand as a clean and high quality producer of farm products with a world wide reputation. The Gunns company wants a mill so the government tries to push all the farmers off side to build a mill that would ruin then producers livelihoods. Luckily the company went arse up and the government couldn't get finance.
 

bergholt

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Mr Gupta in Whyalla ...very very smart operator will change that part of the country.

People in this country would be pretty embarrassed if they travelled more and saw the technology elsewhere.
Absolutely, they have the tech, we have the ore, Joint venture waiting to happen.

But we always seem to be just the workshed for someone else.
GM and Ford, we were just cheap labor, and never got above that.
Our university's developed new Carbon FIbre manufacturing tech, its all gone offshore.
Yep, on both of these posts. We're a lazy country generally, people don't want to take risks to start a company and do something great. They'd rather work a terrible job at a bank or telco or something, earn enough to pay off the house by the time they're 65, then retire having done nothing with their life. This despite having a super-comfortable country with an amazing safety net if you do fail.
 
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