Discussion Random Discussion

[Stewart66]

So I've avoiding this subject, fuel reduction burns are totemic, like old growth forest, habitat trees, native gardens, wood chips, logging, protesters chained to dozers and trucks. Depending on who you are and what your bent is you'll get worked up about these topics and get very angry about them, but they won't make a rats worth of difference, the trees of the forest have evolved to burn and burn to keep surviving.

Up here we haven't had fuel reduction burns here for years, just too hot and too dry, but the blokes right and a crown fire is a very different beast, a lightning strike can last for weeks smouldering away in a dry tree just waiting for heat and wind, it wouldn't matter how the undergrowth had been burnt away the fire is in the tree top.

It's a bit the same with fire spotting ahead and trying to cut fire breaks, eucalyptus oil has a flash point of 49 degrees, so on a really hot day you'll see a blue haze of eucalyptus oil over the forest, it's the forest getting ready to kick off. I've seen a lone grey gum 1 km from the fire front "spontaneously combust" which it didn't it was just days of high 40 degree temps (and no good measuring in the shade, measure in the full sun because that's where the trees are) add a spark and were off.

One variable to consider, are there messmates growing in the forest and how old are they? They grow from sea level to about 1500 meters and can live for hundreds of years but their bark is very fibrous and very flammable. From about 60 years on they will pipe, they can grow 90m tall, the older they get the more flammable they are. So I'm little Johnny out on summer crew doing a bit of supervised burning, I'm young, fit, idealistic, keen on the girls a little macho, a little thick and sporting a man bun to hide my crippling lack of self esteem.

There's an old messmate, a wolf tree, high and wide canopy, a habitat tree, very old lots of nooks and crannies for birds and little critters. the fire isn't all that close but a spark gets into a hole which is now deep enough to get to the pipe, whoosh the tree acts like a chimney, the crown explodes like a grenade and you've got a fire ball. It really has hit the fan because up there it can't be controlled, there's no water bomber to call on, under equipped, under educated, under prepared, it's all out of control, hundreds of acres burnt a farm house and stock. Luckily nobody dies. The Dept. gets sued (have to settle), little Johnny has to rethink his life choices and the won't be any money to stop this happening again, so they redraw the regs. The Dept. can't afford payouts especially when funds are being cut so there's less fuel reduction burns.

The messmate has evolved to burn, the leaves, the oil, the bark, the pipe, they grow on a lignotuber so their life force is under ground, when the top burns they just start from the bottom again.

Fuel reduction burns do work, if the forest is high enough, wet enough, cool enough, young enough, they work depending on the ignition site and source, they do make a difference in the short term, but in the long term all they do is delay the inevitable, because once the air temp gets to 50 deg. nothing works. Unless we come up with a different ecological model for how our forest is made up, they will just get dryer and more flammable.

What grinds my gears is the pure wastage of money in this country.

You hear the ex Fire Chiefs frustration, when equipment that is desperately needed like at least
30 water bombers required nationally yet due to Lobbyists we buy the F35 Fighter project .

Which is the equivalent of 3 National Broadband networks or 77 Royal Adelaide Hospitals or
New runway Brisbane Airport 125 times....the plane will obsolete upon completion its a dud
the Russians have an aircraft fraction of the cost available now and far superior
why did we do it.

Lobbyists

New submarines will cost $128 billion dollars again obsolete.upon completion ..why ....vote buying for elections

Lobbyists


And don’t talk about tax ....out of 2100 corporations that operate here , 772 don’t pay any tax not a cent.


End of rant

 

[gringo2011]

What grinds my gears is the pure wastage of money in this country.

You hear the ex Fire Chiefs frustration, when equipment that is desperately needed like at least
30 water bombers required nationally yet due to Lobbyists we buy the F35 Fighter project .

Which is the equivalent of 3 National Broadband networks or 77 Royal Adelaide Hospitals or
New runway Brisbane Airport 125 times....the plane will obsolete upon completion its a dud
the Russians have an aircraft fraction of the cost available now and far superior
why did we do it.

Lobbyists

New submarines will cost $128 billion dollars again obsolete.upon completion ..why ....vote buying for elections

Lobbyists


And don’t talk about tax ....out of 2100 corporations that operate here , 772 don’t pay any tax not a cent.


End of rant

$1.5 billion to keep around 500 people off shore every year. $180 million to reopen Christmas Island for a photo op and no-one to put on it. Now we chucked that SL family on it to make it look good value. $440 million to the Great Barrier Reef Foundation which gives free trips to CEOs so they decide not to wreck it. We waste like no other country.

 

[Moral Decay]

What grinds my gears is the pure wastage of money in this country.

You hear the ex Fire Chiefs frustration, when equipment that is desperately needed like at least
30 water bombers required nationally yet due to Lobbyists we buy the F35 Fighter project .

Which is the equivalent of 3 National Broadband networks or 77 Royal Adelaide Hospitals or
New runway Brisbane Airport 125 times....the plane will obsolete upon completion its a dud
the Russians have an aircraft fraction of the cost available now and far superior
why did we do it.

Lobbyists

New submarines will cost $128 billion dollars again obsolete.upon completion ..why ....vote buying for elections

Lobbyists


And don’t talk about tax ....out of 2100 corporations that operate here , 772 don’t pay any tax not a cent.


End of rant

The irony that the only political party that wants a Federal ICAC is the Greens, useless, pointless and inept. We have Royal Commissions not so we can get the truth but so we can control the terms of reference, appoint an appropriate commissioner, limit the damage and then pick and choose the recommendations, if there was ever a time to throw out a corrupt Government it was after the Banking Royal Commission, we didn't have the balls even for that. I still believe in democracy, I just have no reason to believe in our politicians.

 

[Kildonan]

The moment ScoMo started using other peoples money to launch ad based PR campaigns about his fire fighting efforts then duck dickhead hunting season was declared open.

JRay's commentary simply reflects the messaging that he is getting elsewhere in his life. EDIT: It's like coming across a real life casualty of the The Great Hack.

If we want to be kind we can call him misinformed. If you wanted to take a stronger opinion on the matter then you would call him a troll. In my opinion, he is deliberately lighting spot fires on this forum, pun intended, for the sole benefit of gaining some satisfaction from watching the rest of us become agitated. I think it's time we let that sleeping dog lie.

Read and Share Twitter Threads easily!

Thread Reader helps you read and share the best of Twitter Threads

threadreaderapp.com

My suggesting Johnny Ray was influenced by confirmation bias is an assumption.

So many on here are hurting. For some it is only natural to lash out at who they believe to be the cause, however irrational. This fire season still has a lot to play out and it will take a lot of time for the people affected to lick their wounds and recover. Many people's lives will be permanently affected, and we as a country will take some time to recover.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

In fairness you have no idea that they didn't do anything before this. Also people keep donating goods instead of money because we don't trust each other and this morning the RFS in NSW were saying it's a new distorter as people donate stuff that they can't store or process.

We need to fund the fire services better and who knows, these people might just agitate the government into action. Modern governments have to be dragged kicking and screaming in to anything. I personally don't want Scomo sacked, Dutton would be next in line and he has all the charm of one of those Amazon fish that crawl up your urethra and eat you from the inside out.

The group think will go against me , but the simple fact is , if the Liberals , or the Labor party had made "Climate Action" a decade ago. It would have had a negligible effect on these fires.

There seems to be a bizarre logic that suggests Australia has fires , so Australia has to fix their climate.
Unilaterally the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is not expected to reduce in the near future , despite monumental efforts by some countries in Europe.
USA, CHina , and other parts of Asia have the most potential.
Yes China are still developing their industry and it won't be easy...but its what has to happen if you want to reduce CO2.

If we have a bushfire problem due to global warming, we need to find a way to deal with the symptom, because whatever we do with our emissions local wont prevent it.
No more than Nauru can save themselves from rising sea levels by replacing their diesel generator with some solar panels.

 

[Stewart66]

My suggesting Johnny Ray was influenced by confirmation bias is an assumption.

So many on here are hurting. For some it is only natural to lash out at who they believe to be the cause, however irrational. This fire season still has a lot to play out and it will take a lot of time for the people affected to lick their wounds and recover. Many people's lives will be permanently affected, and we as a country will take some time to recover.

Captured - The Sequel: climate deniers a re-run of Big Tobacco - Michael West Media

As as PM continues to deny climate science, there can be no doubt that the Australian state has been captured by fossil fuel and media billionaires.

www.michaelwest.com.au

 

[pebblesofsand]

The group think will go against me , but the simple fact is , if the Liberals , or the Labor party had made "Climate Action" a decade ago. It would have had a negligible effect on these fires.

There seems to be a bizarre logic that suggests Australia has fires , so Australia has to fix their climate.
Unilaterally the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is not expected to reduce in the near future , despite monumental efforts by some countries in Europe.
USA, CHina , and other parts of Asia have the most potential.
Yes China are still developing their industry and it won't be easy...but its what has to happen if you want to reduce CO2.

If we have a bushfire problem due to global warming, we need to find a way to deal with the symptom, because whatever we do with our emissions local wont prevent it.
No more than Nauru can save themselves from rising sea levels by replacing their diesel generator with some solar panels.

Wow - confused. Nobody has suggested anything along the lines you've "manufactured".

The issue is that it is impossible to lecture someone else (lets say your children) on the evil effects of smoking with a durrie hanging from your lip. And we've got a f***ing huge gran corona in our gob.

China, USA and India make up 38% of the worlds GDP, but the balance of the top 20 (countries like Japan, Germany, France, UK Australia, Canada, Brazil etc etc) make up 35% of the worlds GDP.

So the 17 can match the top 3 and that's completely disregarding the facts that despite what you say about the USA, their CO2 emissions are declining at a faster rate than Australia's and their emissions rate was the lowest for 25 years.

Califonia has the 7th largest economy in the world which continues to grow while its CO2 emissions continue to fall. Amazing!!!

 

[gringo2011]

The irony that the only political party that wants a Federal ICAC is the Greens, useless, pointless and inept. We have Royal Commissions not so we can get the truth but so we can control the terms of reference, appoint an appropriate commissioner, limit the damage and then pick and choose the recommendations, if there was ever a time to throw out a corrupt Government it was after the Banking Royal Commission, we didn't have the balls even for that. I still believe in democracy, I just have no reason to believe in our politicians.

The worst damage that political opportunists like Trump have done is shaken public faith in the political system. The USA has always had a pretty poor record of meddling in international affairs for their own gain. It was possibly already eroding with things like Wikileaks removing the veneer of them being the world's sheriff, but he's come in and trashed the brand to get himself up and now sees the political world as an all you can eat buffet for the wealthy. It's hard to see people having much faith in the whole political world now and the opportunistic greed of current politicians has made it worse.

 

[gringo2011]

The group think will go against me , but the simple fact is , if the Liberals , or the Labor party had made "Climate Action" a decade ago. It would have had a negligible effect on these fires.

There seems to be a bizarre logic that suggests Australia has fires , so Australia has to fix their climate.
Unilaterally the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is not expected to reduce in the near future , despite monumental efforts by some countries in Europe.
USA, CHina , and other parts of Asia have the most potential.
Yes China are still developing their industry and it won't be easy...but its what has to happen if you want to reduce CO2.

If we have a bushfire problem due to global warming, we need to find a way to deal with the symptom, because whatever we do with our emissions local wont prevent it.
No more than Nauru can save themselves from rising sea levels by replacing their diesel generator with some solar panels.

To me it sets a culture of acceptance. Not acting won't turn the climate around if it's just us. At the moment it's like we all work for a business. America is one of the bosses and we see him stealing like a Mofo. We think it's okay if he does it, we should too. The only issue is that these fires are like a financial report saying that the business is going to go belly-up if they don't stop the rot.

Smaller polluters like us, the UK, France etc make up 47% of the carbon emitters. If we all do something together and leave the others out hopefully they get the idea that it's not accepted. China by the way invests more than any country in renewables, they are heading there already. The US will be the lone pariah eventually. China will probably have the world's economy well in their grasp by then and America will be a spent force with no climate technology and other countries isolating them in trade because of it. We are tying ourselves to the stage coach industry in the age of the motor car.

 

[gringo2011]

Wow - confused. Nobody has suggested anything along the lines you've "manufactured".

The issue is that it is impossible to lecture someone else (lets say your children) on the evil effects of smoking with a durrie hanging from your lip. And we've got a f***ing huge gran corona in our gob.

China, USA and India make up 38% of the worlds GDP, but the balance of the top 20 (countries like Japan, Germany, France, UK Australia, Canada, Brazil etc etc) make up 35% of the worlds GDP.

So the 17 can match the top 3 and that's completely disregarding the facts that despite what you say about the USA, their CO2 emissions are declining at a faster rate than Australia's and their emissions rate was the lowest for 25 years.

Califonia has the 7th largest economy in the world which continues to grow while its CO2 emissions continue to fall. Amazing!!!

Schwartzenegger was a big investor in climate tech early on and being a tech hub plenty of nerds wanted green policy. He did a lot of the set up during his governorship between 2003 and 2011.

 

[CaptainRisky]

Captured - The Sequel: climate deniers a re-run of Big Tobacco - Michael West Media

As as PM continues to deny climate science, there can be no doubt that the Australian state has been captured by fossil fuel and media billionaires.

www.michaelwest.com.au

Captured - The Sequel: climate deniers a re-run of Big Tobacco - Michael West Media

As as PM continues to deny climate science, there can be no doubt that the Australian state has been captured by fossil fuel and media billionaires.

www.michaelwest.com.au

Opps sorry about that guys , no idea what i did there

 

[CaptainRisky]

Captured - The Sequel: climate deniers a re-run of Big Tobacco - Michael West Media

As as PM continues to deny climate science, there can be no doubt that the Australian state has been captured by fossil fuel and media billionaires.

www.michaelwest.com.au

 

[gringo2011]

You must have really liked hat article.

 

[CaptainRisky]

My suggesting Johnny Ray was influenced by confirmation bias is an assumption.

So many on here are hurting. For some it is only natural to lash out at who they believe to be the cause, however irrational. This fire season still has a lot to play out and it will take a lot of time for the people affected to lick their wounds and recover. Many people's lives will be permanently affected, and we as a country will take some time to recover.

Thats what i was trying to post , That is the most sensible thing iv seen posted on here for a while , it really sums up the current situation , its times like this we need to stick together and then work out a plan to make sure we minimize the fires going forward .

 

[gringo2011]

Thats what i was trying to post , That is the most sensible thing iv seen posted on here for a while , it really sums up the current situation , its times like this we need to stick together and then work out a plan to make sure we minimize the fires going forward .

It's massive kick in the balls for the whole country. We usually would be camping with a big group of us near Tathra in the state park at this time of year. You end up spending heaps up there from the cafes, ice cream shop to the shitty little amusement park for the kids to clothes and forgotten camping gear. All the food, booze and other stuff as well. Most of those communities rely on the Christmas holidays for the cold months. It will kill off a lot of businesses. It then spreads around the whole country as food prices soar on top of that. It's a massive disaster for peoples lives and the wider and smaller communities. People are talking of selling off houses in fire zones before the insurers refuse to insure them. It could send us int recession.

 

[Kildonan]

Captured - The Sequel: climate deniers a re-run of Big Tobacco - Michael West Media

As as PM continues to deny climate science, there can be no doubt that the Australian state has been captured by fossil fuel and media billionaires.

www.michaelwest.com.au

Michael West has been a shining light of what journalism has to be in order to have the traditional protective effect on society.
Clickbait is the cancer or journalism

 

[CaptainRisky]

It's massive kick in the balls for the hole country. We usually would be camping with a big group of us near Tathra in the state park at this time of year. You end up spending heaps up there from the cafes, ice cream shop to the shitty little amusement park for the kids to clothes and forgotten camping gear. All the food, booze and other stuff as well. Most of those communities rely on the Christmas holidays for the cold months. It will kill off a lot of businesses. It then spreads around the whole country as food prices soar on top of that. It's a massive disaster for peoples lives and the wider and smaller communities. People are talking of selling off houses in fire zones before the insurers refuse to insure them. It could send us int recession.

Yeah , i always go to the south coast , either Tathra , Narooma and had an amazing house booked at Tuross head right on the lake in three weeks time but iv had to cancel that , You feel for these towns as its the 3 month period over xmas where they make all their money to keep them going

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Wow - confused. Nobody has suggested anything along the lines you've "manufactured".

The issue is that it is impossible to lecture someone else (lets say your children) on the evil effects of smoking with a durrie hanging from your lip. And we've got a f***ing huge gran corona in our gob.

China, USA and India make up 38% of the worlds GDP, but the balance of the top 20 (countries like Japan, Germany, France, UK Australia, Canada, Brazil etc etc) make up 35% of the worlds GDP.

So the 17 can match the top 3 and that's completely disregarding the facts that despite what you say about the USA, their CO2 emissions are declining at a faster rate than Australia's and their emissions rate was the lowest for 25 years.

Califonia has the 7th largest economy in the world which continues to grow while its CO2 emissions continue to fall. Amazing!!!

Call me confused.

No its not about moral high ground. China don't look up to us as their "Dad". Quite the opposite.
Its about results.
Yes the USA are reducing their emissions.
Like a guy who weighs 150Kg can lose more weight than a guy who weighs 60Kg.
The per capita values are irrelevant. It all comes down to tonnes of CO2 into the atmopshere.
So far this is not projected to reduce. ( and its on top of what is already in the atmosphere ).

Hence we need to learn to deal with the consequences.

You can't switch it off.
Australia can't switch it off.
The world will be decades.

GDP is not really relevant, apart from being able to afford infrastructure.
China manufacture, California make movies and own the non manufacturing parts of tech companies. ( though i'd love to see some of the rich list put their money where their mouths are and stop jetsetting around, that won't reverse climate change either , i guess its ok to smoke that durrie if you are so rich and important ).

If Australia could go zero emmissions by tomorrow, there would be no less risk of bushfires this year, next year, next decade.

Phhht... international shipping is responsible for ten times the emissions of Australia, and since its just one big source, it would be a lot easier to halve, than Australia's diversity is.

 

[Johnnyrayflamingo]

The group think will go against me , but the simple fact is , if the Liberals , or the Labor party had made "Climate Action" a decade ago. It would have had a negligible effect on these fires.

There seems to be a bizarre logic that suggests Australia has fires , so Australia has to fix their climate.
Unilaterally the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is not expected to reduce in the near future , despite monumental efforts by some countries in Europe.
USA, CHina , and other parts of Asia have the most potential.
Yes China are still developing their industry and it won't be easy...but its what has to happen if you want to reduce CO2.

If we have a bushfire problem due to global warming, we need to find a way to deal with the symptom, because whatever we do with our emissions local wont prevent it.
No more than Nauru can save themselves from rising sea levels by replacing their diesel generator with some solar panels.

Yep, Australia makes no difference and whatever Australia has done, is doing now and does in the future won't stop any bushfires and change any temperatures. This in regards to our co2 emissions.

That is just reality and facts. Its hard for some to accept and acknowledge but reality doesn't ever agree with the blind and ignorant with a biased mind made up already.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Yep, Australia makes no difference and whatever Australia has done, is doing now and does in the future won't stop any bushfires and change any temperatures. This in regards to our co2 emissions.

That is just reality and facts. Its hard for sone to accept and knowledge but reality doesn't ever agree with the blind and ignorant.

Yes, apart from anything else, we need to deal with the consequences of climate change. We can't cure it.

 

[Johnnyrayflamingo]

Yes, apart from anything else, we need to deal with the consequences of climate change. We can't cure it.

Plus we need to deal with and adapt to "natural climate change" which is a constant on mother Earth. This never goes away. Its a constant. It always has been. This 100% reality gets downplayed and forgotten too often but unfortunately it doesn't get factored into certain people's narrative and bias.

 

[Joffaboy]

Heard this in the past.

1) The right will deny climate change

2) It is some huge commo plot

3) we are too small to make a difference

All of this I have heard for thirty years.

Now when the shit has hit the fan and exactly what Garnault forsaw in 2008 has come to pass we get

4) oh climate change is real but we can't do anything about it now.

FMD and some now call for us to come together. [emoji849][emoji849]

No thanks. I will never 'come together' with denialists.

 

[Johnnyrayflamingo]

Heard this in the past.

1) The right will deny climate change

2) It is some huge commo plot

3) we are too small to make a difference

All of this I have heard for thirty years.

Now when the shit has hit the fan and exactly what Garnault forsaw in 2008 has come to pass we get

4) oh climate change is real but we can't do anything about it now.

FMD and some now call for us to come together.

No thanks.

Heard this in the past.

1) The right will deny climate change

2) It is some huge commo plot

3) we are too small to make a difference

All of this I have heard for thirty years.

Now when the shit has hit the fan and exactly what Garnault forsaw in 2008 has come to pass we get

4) oh climate change is real but we can't do anything about it now.

FMD and some now call for us to come together. [emoji849][emoji849]

No thanks. I will never 'come together' with denialists.

Nah, a lot of people just prefer to deal with facts and reality and being practical,not alarmist catastrophic nonsense based on fairy land policies.

 

[jwikked]

Yep, Australia makes no difference and whatever Australia has done, is doing now and does in the future won't stop any bushfires and change any temperatures. This in regards to our co2 emissions.

That is just reality and facts. Its hard for some to accept and acknowledge but reality doesn't ever agree with the blind and ignorant with a biased mind made up already.

You are right in saying that, but the whole point is that if we can’t reduce our own emissions, how are we supposed to expect China and the USA to lower theirs? Just because our emissions have an incredibly tiny impact on the global scale, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it.
Every country needs to act. Who’s going to take the first few steps? Why would China take action when other countries won’t?

 

[jwikked]

Plus we need to deal with and adapt to "natural climate change" which is a constant on mother Earth. This never goes away. Its a constant. It always has been. This 100% reality gets downplayed and forgotten too often but unfortunately it doesn't get factored into certain people's narrative and bias.

It’s not factored in because it’s irrelevant. Man made emissions are controllable and are making a huge impact on the worlds climate. The natural climate swings will occur over 10’s of thousands of years.
Our emissions are making a difference within 10’s of years. It’s not sustainable and it’s not something that life can adapt to - because it’s happening so fast.