Discussion Random Discussion

[StCicatriz]

Whole lotta posts to get through. I'll try my best.


I think it's a problem on both fronts. Yes there's no central media in the states but they all have an agenda, republican or not. Before I even side with Trump I am more for a true democracy not ruined or compromised by a media machine that controls the narrative of the most powerful country on the planet. I'll be really clear and say that if I would more prefer someone to win fairly then to have the result questioned and end up proven to have been tampered with. If Biden wins, and he wins fairly, all power to him. I am not stupid enough to sit here and blindly defend the republican party or categorically say that there is mass voter fraud. All I am saying is that a swing of this magnitude in this amount of time is unusual and I would hope that that's just how it is. For anyone to argue against that (the want to have a fair and accurate election) has an agenda. I think we can all agree on this point no matter what side of the fence we sit on.


I'll check it out mate and thanks for suggesting. You say Trump can't tweet out something about white supremacy but his actions and policies actually reflect a completely different image. He passed criminal reform in the United States, something Barack Obama - who was widely loved - didn't manage to do. In fact, the person Trump is running against passed a crime bill in 1994 that incarcerated african americans. So if we are to talk about racial divide I think Trump falls 3rd in line on that list behind mainstream media and Joe Biden.

Maybe this is just a difference in opinion but I don't particularly care what he says. I care more about the policies he implements and the changes he makes. In this election he has the most black votes for a republican candidate since 1960. That is telling. Despite what the media want to trot out, this is evidence to suggest minorities in America have had enough of being pandered to by the Democrats from someone who imprisoned their families for decades over minor offences. This is just facts, this isn't hearsay or opinion or anything of the sort. If we are to have an objective discussion about American politics we need to give credit and criticism where it is due. I don't agree with Trump on everything. But out of the two currently running for office I would much rather have him over a guy that has been there half a century and has nothing to show for it.


It's unusual because election day votes predominantly come from republicans, not democrats. Sure the Dems could get more election day votes than the republicans but the swings are just way too much for it to be anything 'normal'.


More so the mainstream media who are fuelling it.


Yep true. Trump is favoured to win AZ because the counties that are left to tally are currently all in favour of Trump bar one if I remember correctly. Haven't checked it for about an hour. But you are right mate if Biden wins PA it's over. But it's even easier for Biden. If he wins NV it's over. This is why Trump has to flip AZ because it's worth 11 electoral votes, along with holding in the states he currently leads - GA, NC, PA and he will win Alaska but that doesn't really matter as it's only worth 3 electoral votes.


I don't know what has happened but the swing is unusual and from the stuff coming out now about fraud in MI and WI it's just all a bit too murky. Again and I must reiterate because people here are so anti-Trump that I must spell it out for them - if Biden wins fairly then fair play to him. I am pro-Trump HOWEVER above ALL ELSE I want a fair election. WHOEVER ends up winning.


Election day votes are predominantly republican. Not too sure why you are getting so worked up, it's just a difference of opinion/view. I want Trump to win and I think Biden will ruin the country. You don't. That's fine. I'm not attacking you for it, I don't know why you think it's ok for you to do so.


I'm actually surprised that someone would agree with me on the discussion about racial divide in the US. I'm actually really pleased you do agree there (that the mainstream are fuelling racial tension and hatred in America).

However it's not about any politician mate. It's about the mainstream and their narrative. They control the masses and with their misreporting of the facts & events they control power. This is probably going to open up another can of worms but look at how they report white on black crime and then look at how they report black on white crime or even black on black crime. You don't hear about it. Why? Because they want to keep black Americans mentally enslaved. To continue to think that they cannot make a success of themselves in America. Always someone against them. Lyndon Johnson (Democrat) said that he'd have blacks voting Democrat for the next 200 years. Their aim is to keep racial tension high. To keep people fighting amongst one another. If it isn't for equal pay it's for the LGBT community and if it isn't for that it's for race. Not saying these issues don't exist at all, but to the extent the media wants people to believe? No way in hell. Cannon Hinnant, a 5 year old white child, was murdered in broad daylight by an african american man. And because of this, CNN didn't even report on it. CNN! A mainstream news outlet. Nothing. Yet they fuel the narrative to defund the police because examples like an african american man resists arrest and charges at a police offer with a knife, gets shot and dies. Where's the fairness in the reporting? Why should the public have to accept this stuff?

And please don't generalise anything I've said above. Yes some events are warranted (George Floyd death disgraceful) and others have their place too but for the most part (and I mean 95%) the news is only one way. Divide and conquer, oldest trick in the book.

The quicker we start thinking for ourselves the better off we will all be. Because I sure as sh*t can't see any mainstream news outlet giving us the true story.

i agree with a fair bit of what you say. i think what they are going through is tension because of their history and how the demographic is changing. on obama you have to remember it was not easy for him to address anything racial because of the position he was in. if you watch the documentary on the great divide it goes over this. he also didn't have power beyond the first mid term. from there the republicans took one house, then the other. hence the mess you get with things like gun control and health care.

i disagree on this: " Yet they fuel the narrative to defund the police because examples like an african american man resists arrest and charges at a police offer with a knife, gets shot and dies."

defund the police actually makes a lot of sense when you look at what it is about. the issue is how you "manage" crime. by the time crime has occurred it is already too late. you already have a cost to the tax payer by that point. it's a reactive control.

the retiring police commissioner here had some interesting points. he said modern policing cannot just be about the police. he said they now have enough data that crosses two generations that supports this. what they started doing 30 years ago is and this will sound bad, monitoring those at high risk with children, which could be seen as "profiling". essentially they monitored a bunch of high repeat offenders who were about the have kids, then saw the outcome for their kids. surprise surprise they repeated the same pattern. he said those kids are now adults and have had their own kids and the point he was making is that unless there is intervention it will go down the same path.

he went on to say police cannot intervene, it's not their job. what they really need is more support from social workers, the community and schools. police maybe, but they're not going to give you the big benefit.

so his argument was if you provide MORE FUNDING to the areas further on down the line the "justice pipeline" then you will help reduce the impact on the tax payer.

now based on my experience in the states, this couldn't be more obvious. they have major issues because of how their entire society operates. living conditions whilst amazing at the top end are utterly embarrassing at the bottom end and this is not like what we have in remote areas here. it's in large cities. the welfare system is bad. the health care system is bad. the education system is falling further and further behind. gun control, don't get me started.

you address those things instead of focussing on policing and you will see improvement. that's the whole point behind the defund the police movement. it's not to actually shut down the police force or put them on a skeleton crew. it's to say if you start addressing the other areas by providing funding, you will see a reduction in serious crime and improvement in living standards.

 

[StCicatriz]

Haha what is this?

This is for Michigan not Pennsylvania.

what is the evidence that there is voter fraud occurring in Pennsylvania

Trump specifically mentioned Michigan and Wisconsin if i re-call correctly

 

[LiterallyNobody]

All good.

Just feel the vitriol towards one side is unfair. Look at how many people I've had to replied to and defend my position because I have a different view. We all have no real dog in this fight. Why others want to get ultra defensive is weird.


Nice! First one I've seen. Now compare that to a white on black crime and show me how many links you can find haha


Again not quite sure I'm understanding it correctly. Trump looks to have insurmountable leads in both GA and NC where the votes left to count will have little to no bearing on a possible flip.

As for AZ, there's still a lot of votes left to count and they are in countys where Trump holds the lead so if that continues he will win those counties and by doing so flip AZ.

Hope that makes sense?

I think you're misunderstanding me because you're not seeing the point I'm trying to make here - I'm asking HOW can it possibly be called in Biden's favour if there are still so many votes to count? And the argument that "it might be a bigger deficit than votes left to count" makes no sense because the gap is 80K and the outstanding votes left (assuming the 4.2m already counted is 86%) is roughly 600K.

So I'm not saying "How can Trump win this state?" I'm saying "How can they already call it for Biden?"


Hope that clears it up.

 

[flyingmagic]

Yeah the AZ call seems quite dubious. Very close in Georgia but probably Trump.

But looks like Pennsylvania will pretty convincingly go to Biden which means everything else doesn't matter.

 

[Verdun]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/08/14/cannon-hinnant-killing/

Not hard - you couldn't have been looking far haha.


Not sure it is the Democrats who are creating that debate.

I'm out of here off to do a school run- we all should be able to raise a point on race or other issues without being said you are trying to create a divide. Bit like political correctness, long may you have the right to say what you want.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

what is interesting is where America goes from here. I agree with George's sentiment that America is so divided. Using another George, this what George Washington said:


he warned that if the nation went along partisan lines they open themselves up to be exploited by outside influences and even civil war

Trump is never going to heal the division he will only add to it. Biden is not a perfect candidate but he has shown more compassion and the ability to work with both sides of politics. Republicans are on record stating how decent Biden is as a person. He's well liked and respected. Much in the same way McCain was respected on both sides.

Trump on the other hand is seen as a bully and dis-tasteful, see his comments on McCain for example or those who died at war.

the US needs to get over the divisive rhetoric they use. hell even the whole Fake News slogan was a take away from the Nazi Germany playbook.

the first step needs to be resounding push back on the fraudulent election claims. this sh*t absolutely needs to be called out. its wrong and undermines not only democracy in america but also the world.

Americans love to ignore the warnings of their good presidents.

Washington was against political parties, Eisenhower went against the military industrial complex and the cutting of welfare and support.

But every President since Regan has been shithouse IMO,

 

[gringo2011]

Haha what is this?

This is for Michigan not Pennsylvania.

It's the only vaguely credible thing I've seen the only media suggesting it are FOX or rightwing commentators.

 

[George]

i agree with a fair bit of what you say. i think what they are going through is tension because of their history and how the demographic is changing. on obama you have to remember it was not easy for him to address anything racial because of the position he was in. if you watch the documentary on the great divide it goes over this. he also didn't have power beyond the first mid term. from there the republicans took one house, then the other. hence the mess you get with things like gun control and health care.

i disagree on this: " Yet they fuel the narrative to defund the police because examples like an african american man resists arrest and charges at a police offer with a knife, gets shot and dies."

defund the police actually makes a lot of sense when you look at what it is about. the issue is how you "manage" crime. by the time crime has occurred it is already too late. you already have a cost to the tax payer by that point. it's a reactive control.

the retiring police commissioner here had some interesting points. he said modern policing cannot just be about the police. he said they now have enough data that cross two generations that supports this. what they started doing 30 years ago is and this will sound bad, monitoring those at high risk with children. essentially they monitored a bunch of high repeat offenders who were about the have kids, then saw the outcome for their kids. surprise surprise they repeated the same pattern. he said those kids are now adults and have had their own young kids and the point he was making is that unless there is intervention it will go down the same path.

he went on to say police cannot intervene, it's not their job. what they really need is more support from social workers, the community and schools. police maybe, but they're not going to give you the big benefit.

so his argument was if you provide MORE FUNDING to the areas further on down the line the "justice pipeline" then you will help reduce the impact on the tax payer.

now based on my experience in the states, this couldn't be more obvious. they have major issues because of how their entire society operates. living conditions whilst amazing at the top end are utterly embarrassing at the bottom end and this is not like what we have in remote areas here. it's in large cities. the welfare system is bad. the health care system is bad. the education system is falling further and further behind. gun control, don't get me started.

you address those things instead of focussing on policing and you will see improvement. that's the whole point behind the defund the police movement. it's not to actually shut down the police force or put them on a skeleton crew. it's to say if you start addressing the other areas by providing funding, you will see a reduction in serious crime and improvement in living standards.

Instead of defunding the police why can't they ban methods of arrest (ie chokeholds for example). Why the need to strip the people protecting the rest of society? Anyway the message I got from the radical left is to defund the police. It's absurd. Definitely a few bad eggs and some terrible stuff has happened but it pales in comparison to the thousands of other officers across the country who actually do an outstanding job. Then you have well known black personalities coming out and saying police are hunting them down like animals. It's irresponsible and stupid to say stuff like that. Police don't wake up and think gee I'd like to end someone's life today. They aren't trained to kill. This all contributes to the narrative of racial injustice/divide.

what is the evidence that there is voter fraud occurring in Pennsylvania

Trump specifically mentioned Michigan and Wisconsin if i re-call correctly

I don't think I ever have said categorically that there is voter fraud. I said it's unusual how big the swings have been. In regards to PA I had posted a tweet on the current numbers in PA as of 8am this morning and what Biden would need to overcome to win the state (and in turn how difficult that would be for him). MI and WI completely different kettle of fish but lets see how it plays out. Either way want a fair result.

I think you're misunderstanding me because you're not seeing the point I'm trying to make here - I'm asking HOW can it possibly be called in Biden's favour if there are still so many votes to count? And the argument that "it might be a bigger deficit than votes left to count" makes no sense because the gap is 80K and the outstanding votes left (assuming the 4.2m already counted is 86%) is roughly 600K.

So I'm not saying "How can Trump win this state?" I'm saying "How can they already call it for Biden?"


Hope that clears it up.

Oh okay. Yeah I've got no idea. Fox called it early for Biden and now being hounded to retract it. Maybe they went by historical votes but this election has shown anything is possible so I don't know why they would be so adamant about it with so many votes left.

 

[George]

It's the only vaguely credible thing I've seen the only media suggesting it are FOX or rightwing commentators.

It's not an opinion though so it doesn't really matter what side it came from. It's how many votes are left and what is required to win the state.

 

[gringo2011]

Russia is running a racial divide campaign if anyone wants to look it up. They are using troll factories to cause a serious divide.

Russian trolls are outsourcing to Africa to stoke US racial tensions | TechCrunch

With tech companies wise to many of the tactics that Russia's now-infamous troll farms used to seed disinformation during the 2016 election, those

techcrunch.com

 

[gringo2011]

It's not an opinion though so it doesn't really matter what side it came from. It's how many votes are left and what is required to win the state.

How can you have opinions count for more than facts though? It was either cheated or not cheated not an opinion.

 

[George]

How can you have opinions count for more than facts though? It was either cheated or not cheated not an opinion.

Now I'm really confused. Did you read the tweet?

 

[George]

gringo2011 remove the heavy lifting comment and tell me what is opinion about this (PA tweet, not AZ);

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Instead of defunding the police why can't they ban methods of arrest (ie chokeholds for example). Why the need to strip the people protecting the rest of society? Anyway the message I got from the radical left is to defund the police. It's absurd. Definitely a few bad eggs and some terrible stuff has happened but it pales in comparison to the thousands of other officers across the country who actually do an outstanding job. Then you have well known black personalities coming out and saying police are hunting them down like animals. It's irresponsible and stupid to say stuff like that. Police don't wake up and think gee I'd like to end someone's life today. They aren't trained to kill. This all contributes to the narrative of racial injustice/divide.


I don't think I ever have said categorically that there is voter fraud. I said it's unusual how big the swings have been. In regards to PA I had posted a tweet on the current numbers in PA as of 8am this morning and what Biden would need to overcome to win the state (and in turn how difficult that would be for him). MI and WI completely different kettle of fish but lets see how it plays out. Either way want a fair result.


Oh okay. Yeah I've got no idea. Fox called it early for Biden and now being hounded to retract it. Maybe they went by historical votes but this election has shown anything is possible so I don't know why they would be so adamant about it with so many votes left.

Of course the swings are unusual George, we're in the midst of a once in a century pandemic where more people have used mail ballots than ever before.

The vast majority of these seem to be Democrats, which makes perfect sense as they're the ones who have taken Covid seriously unlike Mr 'Rounding the Curve".

 

[George]

Of course the swings are unusual George, we're in the midst of a once in a century pandemic where more people have used mail ballots than ever before.

The vast majority of these seem to be Democrats, which makes perfect sense as they're the ones who have taken Covid seriously unlike Mr 'Rounding the Curve".

They are counting election day ballots which historically favour republican voters.

 

[George]

Supreme Court orders Pennsylvania Democrats to respond in ballot dispute

The Supreme Court ordered Pennsylvania Democrats to respond by Thursday evening in a case challenging the state’s three-day extension for counting mail-in ballots.

www.washingtontimes.com

Going to get ugly

 

[StCicatriz]

Instead of defunding the police why can't they ban methods of arrest (ie chokeholds for example). Why the need to strip the people protecting the rest of society? Anyway the message I got from the radical left is to defund the police. It's absurd. Definitely a few bad eggs and some terrible stuff has happened but it pales in comparison to the thousands of other officers across the country who actually do an outstanding job. Then you have well known black personalities coming out and saying police are hunting them down like animals. It's irresponsible and stupid to say stuff like that. Police don't wake up and think gee I'd like to end someone's life today. They aren't trained to kill. This all contributes to the narrative of racial injustice/divide.


I don't think I ever have said categorically that there is voter fraud. I said it's unusual how big the swings have been. In regards to PA I had posted a tweet on the current numbers in PA as of 8am this morning and what Biden would need to overcome to win the state (and in turn how difficult that would be for him). MI and WI completely different kettle of fish but lets see how it plays out. Either way want a fair result.


Oh okay. Yeah I've got no idea. Fox called it early for Biden and now being hounded to retract it. Maybe they went by historical votes but this election has shown anything is possible so I don't know why they would be so adamant about it with so many votes left.

even that is a reactive measure. as i outlined in my post you want to improve living conditions and the rest will go with it. thats what the actual movement is about. its not about actually shutting down the police force.

when you say radical left who do you mean?

based on my experience the left there is far from "radical left" they're more on the right than us!!!!

btw having lived there for 3 years. the police there are more like our military. they do not **** around. you **** up and they come in HARD! but that's also life there, where people have been done for executing unarmed people in the name of "protecting their property".

 

[George]

even that is a reactive measure. as i outlined in my post you want to improve living conditions and the rest will go with it. thats what the actual movement is about. its not about actually shutting down the police force.

when you say radical left who do you mean?

based on my experience the left there is far from "radical left" they're more on the right than us!!!!

Media

 

[flyingmagic]

 

[StCicatriz]

Media

you think their media over there is the radical left? can you name a media source?

 

[StCicatriz]

PHILADELPHIA — With President Donald Trump leading Joe Biden by 196,000 votes and 12 percent of the estimated vote still uncounted, Pennsylvania Democrats and Republicans spent Wednesday working out the rough math surrounding the as-yet-uncounted mail-in ballots.

There were more than 1 million mail ballots left to be counted as of 2:35 p.m., according to Pennsylvania’s Department of State. So far, 78 percent of mail ballots have broken for Biden and 21 percent have been won by Trump.

If that pace continues — and it’s a big if — Biden would take the lead. Looking at the amount of mail ballots Biden is winning as well as the places still to be fully counted, some Democratic elected officials and consultants, including Sen. Bob Casey, estimate Biden will carry Pennsylvania by about 100,000 votes in a tight race.

i haven't bother to do the maths, but does this hold up and if true doesn't it debunk old mate shapiros claim?

 

[StCicatriz]

trump's whitehouse

 

[Dard Ball Get]

you think their media over there is the radical left? can you name a media source?

Most of them. The social media censorship is an absolute disgrace too

 

[StCicatriz]

Most of them. The social media censorship is an absolute disgrace too

most of them? like who exactly?

based on my experience living there they're further right than us, because the whole ****in populace is further right.

fox is a major news channel you can't say they are the "radical left"

in order for it be classified the "Radical Left" what do they have to say?

tbh it feels like another term used to demonise something you feel works against your interest and when i say you, i mean the political parties

just like fake news was used to remove trust in the main stream media

why do you think a political party would want the people to distrust main stream media?

 

[Dard Ball Get]

most of them? like who exactly?

based on my experience living there they're further right than us, because the whole fu**in populace is further right.

fox is a major news channel you can't see they are the "radical left"

in order for it be classified the "Radical Left" what do they have to say?

tbh it feels like another term used to demonise something you feel works against your interest and when i say you, i mean the political parties

just like fake news was used to remove trust in the main stream media

why do you think a political party would want the people to distrust main stream media?

Radical left wasn’t my term (I’ve jumped in here), but I do think the vast majority are “left leaning” for now (nothing necessarily wrong with that), at least very anti-trump.
The days of solid, unbiased, balanced journalism are gone. It’s about inflammatory sound bytes and clickbait titles.
The politicians are in it for themselves, the media the same. How else do we end up with a senile, old, incompetent racist, and Trump?