Discussion Random Discussion

[Gangnam Saint]

god i hate our national anthem and flag.... i'm all for what you said. lets just get it done

All the states need to secede - just like W.A has already voted to do - and reform, leaving the old structure behind.
The states make up the federation.

 

[lewdogs]

Quite proud to log on and find this debate on here today. Great that it's on our minds.

Makes me think of the Nicky Winmar legacy. And maybe, just maybe, some things are bigger than premierships (even though we'd all take one asap). Xx

 

[Joffaboy]

So it appears to be offensive that Australia was colonized.
Time to accept that it WAS and move on.

And here we have it. Run out of the usual go to memes, calling people racist because they are either not equipped or not willing to understand the conversation tells e eryone to move on.

So they are just all sook and need to get over it?

Really this sounds a bit thoughtless.

And before you think this is some leftie love fest, go back and read my views on the Adam Goods issue. My views on that contrast starkly with my views of Invasion Day and the symbolism that military invasion still evokes.

But they should just move on? As uncomfortable as it is for you and me, this issue will not go away. Embrace our past for a better future

 

[Keg on legs]

I've sat back and not commented on this issue, but I feel it's time.

Like another poster, I grew up with a lot of indigenous families, and sadly I embraced the hatred, mistrust and I'll feeling towards them. I genuinely look back now and cringe because I took the easy road to just fall into line with convention.

After I moved away those feelings softened and I grew to appreciate the struggles that indigenous persons suffer daily. There is no doubt that if I had gone up against an indigenous person for a job, and we were both equally qualified I would have gotten the job every time.

Now, one of my best mates is indigenous and we have some great chats about it. I often tell him I look forward to the day it's not "so and so, the indigenous star" and instead it is just "so and so, the star". He tells me it won't happen because in his words "too much shit had happened". This saddens me.

But the worst thing of all is the attitude of my family and friends back home. My brother refers to my mate as a "good c**n" (apologies for any offence sincs and any other indigenous, but I think it was important to include for reference). And, when I brought my wife who is Asian home for the first time they accepted her so much more readily than if she had been indigenous. It's this attitude that will have to change and it will happen over generations.

I guess my point through all of this- some people's attitudes will change, some won't. And a lot of people are causing damage without any malicious intent or desire to hurt- they are just spruiking what's burnt into their psych over generations of misinformation and mistrust.

I would like to see us one day truly reconciled, but I think it's going to take time.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Mate. Check the scoreboard.

View attachment 209838

21 posts and not a single "like" from any Saints supporters.

Oh. And Jade Gresham says hi.

I'm guessing you are labeling me Racist
What i am doing is defending our right to be happy about the fact that Australia was colonized and able to be built into the nation it is today.

How do you get off telling me what Jade Greshams opinion is. I'm sure he is his own person with his own idea's or are you just stereotyping?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

And by move on you mean forget. Terrible attitude.

Your words your attitude.

Maybe a new day should be named. In the vein of Anzac day. I wouldn't have a problem with that at all.
That is not the intent of Australia day though.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The fact that we are passionately debating this issue is a sign of our growing maturity as a nation. I don't want to antagonise people here but as the country continues to mature it will change as sure as night follows day. In my opinion the best option would be for Australia to move toward declaring itself an independent nation state, with it's own head of state and a new flag, and the new Australia day can be the day we celebrate that! I would love to see the national anthem include Aboriginal language in the same way the South Africans and New Zealanders have been able to.

Which Aboriginal language ?

 

[Joffaboy]

I'm guessing you are labeling me Racist
What i am doing is defending our right to be happy about the fact that Australia was colonized and able to be built into the nation it is today.

How do you get off telling me what Jade Greshams opinion is. I'm sure he is his own person with his own idea's or are you just stereotyping?

Sorry SaintsSeptember is this post directed at me? I'm not sure.

If it is I never labelled you a racist. I don't believe that you have been racist for one moment. We have differing opinions but I respect the way you have gone about your posts in a non aggressive way even if I believe them wrong.

Just noticed the response was to someone I have on ignore.

I don't know anyone apart from yourself that is Denying you "right" to celebrate European settlement of Australia.

The two positions are not mutually exclusive.

All most people ask for is an inclusive day. Not one that by it's very nature is the symbol of dispossession and discrimination to our first people.

Why is that too much to ask?

 

[Joffaboy]

Which Aboriginal language ?

A good one. One that hasn't died. There are many to choose from

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

Australia is a bit different than most countries.
We are so young compared to the rest of the world that our past isnt really that old and we are just coming to terms with it.
IMO its fair to say that embracing/admiting/accepting our past with our lands indigenous people has had a few teething problems and still needs to mature a lot.
NOT ALL but most aussies can still be casually racist.
I myself remember saying 10 yrs ago " bloody Indians are gonna take over this country one day" due to the influx of Indians into our country.
Nowdays ive got a couple of really good mates who are Indians . And I wouldnt change it for the world.
I feel the same about Australia. We will get the attitude right eventually.
its still the best country in the world.
And its still improving.

 

[StFly]

I dunno what the 1960's have to do with the 26th of Jan, and I don't purport to be a well traveled man, but I do have some knowledge that after months on sea in that time, several people would have died or been close and that last thing you would have is invasion fleet because outside of officers who would have prioritised themselves, everyone else would be stuffed. The discussions seem to attribute that the british came here, stepped off the boat, kicked a few people off the land, shot them as they ran, the ones that got away led a trail right to where they live and they then proceeded to poison, butcher and otherwise be right bastards. Or, that because of things which occurred in 1960, 1820, 1914, the date of the 26th of Jan is invalidated.

Why not protest on the monarchs birthday? the swearing in of the monarchs representative the governor general? if it was just about "boo Britain" and what the Brits did in subsequent years, why treat the landing by people who had otherwise never seen an Aboriginal before in their lives and only knew of this land by folklore and rudimentary maps and who likely celebrated making it to land, and then feasted on something that wasn't stuffed pickled in a barrel for months and lay at their feet terribly wrongs that happened after. Why Australia day?

I've not seen it answered yet, I've seen revisionism blame them since they were the first brits for what other generations have done, but no one has really identified why that particular day is so grating to everyone, simply because I don't accept that since they were the second race here, it's entirely their fault, just as we no longer accept the earth is flat.

What happened afterwards, how people were treated, how history states they were treated and wars broke out are totally unacceptable and hold nothing but shame to those though at the time that this was the right way to go about things. But is it the 26th of Jan? Because it is coined Invasion day, not week, not year, not decade; day.

 

[Gangnam Saint]

Think the answer to those who ask why Jan 26 is down to cause and effect. Rightly or wrongly Jan 26 is celebrated as the day of the British landing in Port Jackson, raising the flag and colonising. So for original people that is the day where the cause of the genocide of their people begins with dispossession. Everything subsequent to that is an effect of the initial landing.
No British landing = No genocide.
Hard to argue against that logic really.

 

[PoppedCorn]

Oh look the same two over here killing it like on ss
No wonder i barely visit either area now

Way to ruin everything like usual

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Sorry SaintsSeptember is this post directed at me? I'm not sure.

If it is I never labelled you a racist. I don't believe that you have been racist for one moment. We have differing opinions but I respect the way you have gone about your posts in a non aggressive way even if I believe them wrong.

Just noticed the response was to someone I have on ignore.

I don't know anyone apart from yourself that is Denying you "right" to celebrate European settlement of Australia.

The two positions are not mutually exclusive.

All most people ask for is an inclusive day. Not one that by it's very nature is the symbol of dispossession and discrimination to our first people.

Why is that too much to ask?

It was a reply to a post that said "Jade Gresham " say's hi. I guess i'm only assuming the poster is not in fact jade

 

[Joffaboy]

It was a reply to a post that said "Jade Gresham " say's hi. I guess i'm only assuming the poster is not in fact jade

No worries mate. Love your work. As I said, don't agree, but this whole very raw and very emotional topic has been handled well and respectfully in the mot part.

Yes the Jade Gresham remark was uncalled for. It inferred you are some kind of racist which I don't believe you are. You have a different view to others on here and its not the popular view, but you are entitled to it.

cheers

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Think the answer to those who ask why Jan 26 is down to cause and effect. Rightly or wrongly Jan 26 is celebrated as the day of the British landing in Port Jackson, raising the flag and colonising. So for original people that is the day where the cause of the genocide of their people begins with dispossession. Everything subsequent to that is an effect of the initial landing.
No British landing = No genocide.
Hard to argue against that logic really.

So a date was chosen. Then determined to be an offensive date.
So any other date that was chosen would be equally offensive.
Therefore can we agree that it is not the date that is offensive.

 

[Joffaboy]

Oh look the same two over here killing it like on ss
No wonder i barely visit either area now

Way to ruin everything like usual

Great input matrix, as usual up to your standards.

Really elevated the conversation.

Here is a tip, you don't like posting here or SS - DONT. Just stop, nobody will miss you, and you don't need to post and tell everyone how morally superior you are

Here is another. Kildonan has been posting in this conversation, you don't like a post, report it.

Here is one other tip. Take a look at the name of the thread. It is known as Random Discussion, and that's what it is.

Now got anything to add to the current conversation, or will you just carp off topic from the sidelines?

 

[Joffaboy]

So a date was chosen. Then determined to be an offensive date.
So any other date that was chosen would be equally offensive.
Therefore can we agree that it is not the date that is offensive.

No I don't think that is the case.

26th of January is a symbolic date when Australia was invaded by European settlers.

We pick another date to celebrate the greatness and inclusiveness of Australia and everyone will get on board.

We probably not everyone, there will always be some who will complain regardless, however if we make a small effort and remove the angst in the spirit of inclusiveness, I think would be a great step.

Maybe the date of the Aboriginal Referendum of 1967, 27th of May.

Would be a great gesture. The date we included the first people into "modern" Australia, the way we include people from all races and countries to our great country.

And make no mistake SaintsSeptember, I believe this is a great country full of great well meaning people.

Doesn't mean we are perfect, but we are pretty bloody good for the majority of our citizens.

 

[RoundCubic]

I dunno what the 1960's have to do with the 26th of Jan, and I don't purport to be a well traveled man, but I do have some knowledge that after months on sea in that time, several people would have died or been close and that last thing you would have is invasion fleet because outside of officers who would have prioritised themselves, everyone else would be stuffed. The discussions seem to attribute that the british came here, stepped off the boat, kicked a few people off the land, shot them as they ran, the ones that got away led a trail right to where they live and they then proceeded to poison, butcher and otherwise be right bastards. Or, that because of things which occurred in 1960, 1820, 1914, the date of the 26th of Jan is invalidated.

Why not protest on the monarchs birthday? the swearing in of the monarchs representative the governor general? if it was just about "boo Britain" and what the Brits did in subsequent years, why treat the landing by people who had otherwise never seen an Aboriginal before in their lives and only knew of this land by folklore and rudimentary maps and who likely celebrated making it to land, and then feasted on something that wasn't stuffed pickled in a barrel for months and lay at their feet terribly wrongs that happened after. Why Australia day?

I've not seen it answered yet, I've seen revisionism blame them since they were the first brits for what other generations have done, but no one has really identified why that particular day is so grating to everyone, simply because I don't accept that since they were the second race here, it's entirely their fault, just as we no longer accept the earth is flat.

What happened afterwards, how people were treated, how history states they were treated and wars broke out are totally unacceptable and hold nothing but shame to those though at the time that this was the right way to go about things. But is it the 26th of Jan? Because it is coined Invasion day, not week, not year, not decade; day.

Its not boo british it's that australia day in their view is part of the terra nullius narrative and that the white washing of Australias colonial history that tried to cover up the scale and horrors inflicted on aboriginal people and then by extension blame aboriginal people for the suffering they experience today from poverty, cultural dislocation and incarceration.
This then absolves us from investing the funds and energy required to address these problems as its their problem not our responsibility.
The reality is there was a much larger aboriginal population 200 years ago then today but when i grew up i was told there was only ever at most a couple hundred thousand aboriginals living mostly in the north and desert not well over a million mostly living on the east coast.
I didn't learn about the extermination of Tasmanian aboriginals or the people who lived in Melbourne.
They are lòoking for a date that celebrates modern australia and asks us how we can make it greater not one that celebrates directly or indirectly a colonial history that was edited to ignore the systematic violence, murder, rape, slavery and destruction of thier peoples

 

[Gangnam Saint]

So a date was chosen. Then determined to be an offensive date.
So any other date that was chosen would be equally offensive.
Therefore can we agree that it is not the date that is offensive.

Not sure exactly the point you're trying to make.
If the landing was recognised as happening on March 10 say, and Australia chose that as the national day then March 10 would be considered "invasion day" - that's fair to say.

 

[L_W_P]

I would love to see the national anthem include Aboriginal language in the same way the South Africans and New Zealanders have been able to.

And sure enough these are the two anthems Id rank 1st and 2nd in a global poll. The mixture of languages is amazing.

Im all for a new flag, new anthem and new date for "Australia Day".

Id nominate July 12 - The day the Aboriginal Flag was first flown in this country and the first public showing that we should be considered as 'one' people.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

And sure enough these are the two anthems Id rank 1st and 2nd in a global poll. The mixture of languages is amazing.

Im all for a new flag, new anthem and new date for "Australia Day".

Id nominate July 12 - The day the Aboriginal Flag was first flown in this country and the first public showing that we should be considered as 'one' people.

Apart from everything else we agree with or disagree with.
For us Victorian's its sort of nice having a public holiday during warm weather.

 

[Kildonan]

So a date was chosen. Then determined to be an offensive date.
So any other date that was chosen would be equally offensive.
Therefore can we agree that it is not the date that is offensive.

I am glad that Australia was colonized because that allowed my ancestors to become Australian hence why I am so. I empathise that the inhabitants (who were the traditional landowners) were displaced, killed or otherwise poorly treated feel that Australia Day is a reminder of that injustice and I also feel that they are justified in referring to it as Invasion Day.
Were we to celebrate Australia Day on another day it would be akin to Shakespear's rose - whatever we call it or whenever we celebrate it, it would still have the same connotation.
My thoughts are that we don't really own the land, or the sea or the sky. We live here - all of us do, and we cannot change history but we can promote a fair and just environment on where we live. Sometimes we just need to acknowledge that injustice was done and maybe is still being done and try and find out what we can do to correct this.
The problem might just be that everyone has different goals and ideals...

 

[Gangnam Saint]

I am glad that Australia was colonized because that allowed my ancestors to become Australian hence why I am so. I empathise that the inhabitants (who were the traditional landowners) were displaced, killed or otherwise poorly treated feel that Australia Day is a reminder of that injustice and I also feel that they are justified in referring to it as Invasion Day.
Were we to celebrate Australia Day on another day it would be akin to Shakespear's rose - whatever we call it or whenever we celebrate it, it would still have the same connotation.
My thoughts are that we don't really own the land, or the sea or the sky. We live here - all of us do, and we cannot change history but we can promote a fair and just environment on where we live. Sometimes we just need to acknowledge that injustice was done and maybe is still being done and try and find out what we can do to correct this.
The problem might just be that everyone has different goals and ideals...

Yep, until we make history and reconnect our national day with an event which is definitably inclusive we're probably going to run into the same issue.

 

[Adam H]

Received an email from the AFL it's heading was KICKSTART AND ALL NATIONS REGIONAL TRIAL DAY. Before opening it I thought great my 12 year old football mad son will be as keen as to try out. As I read down it said to be eligible you had to come from Aboriginal or a Torres Strait Islander back ground. How is this fair? I rang the AFL and no other program was being run other than the above. This has now become a joke.