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Rating Geelong's Player Development 2011 onwards

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Seeds said:
What exactly does the senior coach do? On this board he ain't responsible for recruiting, match day strategy and now player development. So what does he do.
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The main thing is because it's a collaborative effort, if we ever won a flag I'm sure all the coaches would go up together. You'd never get one guy holding the cup up by himself.
 

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Nakia said:
Cockatoo a perfect example.

His bursting runs simply ceased in his second year... He looked to get rid the ball almost straight away, almost afraid to take the game on this year.
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Agree. Cockatoo was a little too much at the start, and I could see the sense in explaining to him to play the odds a bit more. But I saw him in the end as just more fodder in the forward defensive pressure strategy. And boy, haven't we lost a few to injury over the past few seasons in that kamikaze role.
 
geelong_crazy26 said:
I actually don't agree with these statements such as "they are bullet proof menegola and Menzel". That comment is almost trying to take away any credit to the development put into them.
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Re Menegola, he came in more or less ready made. He came from other teams. As for Menzel, he was a star from day one.

Edit: but I see your point. The key there is - as other posters have pointed out - Scott has played them to their strengths.
 
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Mr Meow said:
And then the exact opposite is driven hard by a different group of people. Both one sided views can be equally amusing.
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This....:thumbsu::thumbsu:....whats equally amusing is that they are apparently oblivious to it.
 
Lunchlady Doris said:
It's probably unfair to reduce all of the club's efforts down to one match - but the difference between the Cats and the Swans in the PF was stark.

Outside of our top few, so many players who should be approaching their prime just didn't even give a yelp. Motlop, Duncan, Guthrie, Caddy, Blicavs, even McCarthy, Stanley, Cowan, all disappointing.
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Good point, but the problem is it wasn't just one match - it was both times we played Sydney. The margins and final scores were almost identical. The only difference is the first time it was reasonably level for a quarter or so, and the second time they blew us away at the start. But you're right, all those players needed to step up and didn't in either game. One of many challenges the side has for next season.
 
development has been poor, obviously it's hard to turn late round picks into guns but no one from that time has turned elite

Murdoch has got great pace and size but hasn't really improved
GHS is stuck in the VFL, when he gets a run its as an outside mid
Guthrie and Duncan show potential of being guns but then they get moved around
Smedts gets thrown in any position and is expected to perform coming back from injury
Mitch Brown never got a good run
Kersten got gifted heaps of games then goes to freo
Blicavs has the golden ticket but still only looks like a serviceable 2nd ruck
Hamling gets the boot cos we refused to trade out older players

our team has been reliant on our old stars and top up players
 
Seeds said:
I love how Scott's legacy will be determined in the next two years. The very same comments were made here after the prelim... in 2013. He always has the next two years.
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I reckon the tide is turning now in terms of sentiment from the broader supporter base towards him. The Cats fans I know have pretty much all got varying degrees of doubts over him now. Whether of course that means the club admin is having any similar concerns though is a completely different matter.
 
cynical said:
development has been poor, obviously it's hard to turn late round picks into guns but no one from that time has turned elite

Murdoch has got great pace and size but hasn't really improved
GHS is stuck in the VFL, when he gets a run its as an outside mid
Guthrie and Duncan show potential of being guns but then they get moved around
Smedts gets thrown in any position and is expected to perform coming back from injury
Mitch Brown never got a good run
Kersten got gifted heaps of games then goes to freo
Blicavs has the golden ticket but still only looks like a serviceable 2nd ruck
Hamling gets the boot cos we refused to trade out older players

our team has been reliant on our old stars and top up players
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Every case is different, and each player's situation is different.

I don't blame the club at all for Hamling. Not because he hadn't played a senior game, but it wasn't like he was banging the door down in the VFL because he wasn't. Brown, Horlin-Smith, Smedts and even Kersten all did (and do) that far, far more. The moving players away from their natural positions is a major frustration of mine, and I think that has hindered particularly Murdoch, Smedts, and to a lesser extent Horlin-Smith. Murdoch to me is a natural forward, and if he is given games (and I'm not saying he should be gifted them, he's already done very well at selection) should be in a pocket or on a flank. Horlin-Smith is an inside midfielder. That's it. If they aren't going to play him, then trade him and be done with it. They're still obviously besotted with Blicavs, and I'm with you, if there's a spot in the team it's second ruck or nowhere.

We'll see what changes are made if any next year.
 
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year of the cat said:
I reckon the tide is turning now in terms of sentiment from the broader supporter base towards him. The Cats fans I know have pretty much all got varying degrees of doubts over him now. Whether of course that means the club admin is having any similar concerns though is a completely different matter.
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Depends how much the outside world and potential negative opinions are blocked from entering. Good chance very little gets through.
 
Partridge said:
Every case is different, and each player's situation is different.

I don't blame the club at all for Hamling. Not because he hadn't played a senior game, but he wasn't like he was banging the door down in the VFL because he wasn't. Brown, Horlin-Smith, Smedts and even Kersten all did (and do) that far, far more. The moving players away from their natural positions is a major frustration of mine, and I think that has hindered particularly Murdoch, Smedts, and to a lesser extent Horlin-Smith. Murdoch to me is a natural forward, and if he is given games (and I'm not saying he should be gifted them, he's already done very well at selection) should be in a pocket or on a flank. Horlin-Smith is an inside midfielder. That's it. If they aren't going to play him, then trade him and be done with it. They're still obviously besotted with Blicavs, and I'm with you, if there's a spot in the team it's second ruck or nowhere.

We'll see what changes are made if any next year.
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I understand your frustration with playing players out of position; particularly with Smedts, his forward play (admittedly from 2012-13) seemed like exactly what we were lacking in 2014-15 (pressure forward that can mark on the lead), even this year. But don't you agree that Smedts, Murdoch and GHS have limitations in their games that need to be worked on? And can't you see that it might be helpful to expose those players to different roles to see how they respond? It's how we found out Enright and Mackie were suited to back-half roles and Ottens was a ruckman not a forward. Admittedly Enright and Mackie discovered this in the VFL, but the question remains: can you see no value in trying players in different roles?
 
LawnMosey said:
I understand your frustration with playing players out of position; particularly with Smedts, his forward play (admittedly from 2012-13) seemed like exactly what we were lacking in 2014-15 (pressure forward that can mark on the lead), even this year. But don't you agree that Smedts, Murdoch and GHS have limitations in their games that need to be worked on? And can't you see that it might be helpful to expose those players to different roles to see how they respond? It's how we found out Enright and Mackie were suited to back-half roles and Ottens was a ruckman not a forward. Admittedly Enright and Mackie discovered this in the VFL, but the question remains: can you see no value in trying players in different roles?
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This. Have been saying it all year. If we are going to play Lang as a forward then stop playing him in the midfield at VFL level.
Same goes for GHS as he's not good enough to play his preferred role in the AFL side so needs to develop by playing elsewhere at VFL level.
 
LawnMosey said:
I understand your frustration with playing players out of position; particularly with Smedts, his forward play (admittedly from 2012-13) seemed like exactly what we were lacking in 2014-15 (pressure forward that can mark on the lead), even this year. But don't you agree that Smedts, Murdoch and GHS have limitations in their games that need to be worked on? And can't you see that it might be helpful to expose those players to different roles to see how they respond? It's how we found out Enright and Mackie were suited to back-half roles and Ottens was a ruckman not a forward. Admittedly Enright and Mackie discovered this in the VFL, but the question remains: can you see no value in trying players in different roles?
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I can definitely see the value sure, but it's all about your individual philosophy. I would rather develop a player to be strong in one position first before being tried in others; right now I think we've got a few players who are 'ok' in a few positions, but great in none of them.

With Murdoch, sure, he's got to find the ball more. But I could never understand putting him in defence as he doesn't have a defensive mindset. His instinct is to get the ball. I don't mind developing another facet to his game, but I would rather he be solidified as a reliable goal a game medium-sized forward first. And he was heading towards that when in 2014, he did average a goal a game. Horlin-Smith's limitations are mostly leg speed. He stars at VFL level as an inside midfielder, and already history is being rewritten that he's never shown anything in the seniors. He has - when he's played as a midfielder. He's not a half forward, he's not a half back. He should be inside the centre square or nowhere.

This is where I differ, I get why clubs love versatility. But not everyone has it, and not everyone needs it. I get the feeling sometimes fans are more excited that a player does play in many positions, it doesn't matter whether or not he actually can.

It's most likely a minority viewpoint.
 
Partridge said:
Depends how much the outside world and potential negative opinions are blocked from entering. Good chance very little gets through.
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...or is just dismissed as ill-informed rubbish.

If enough people have doubts then there's a fair chance that perhaps there may be some cause for concern.
 

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Partridge said:
I can definitely see the value sure, but it's all about your individual philosophy. I would rather develop a player to be strong in one position first before being tried in others; right now I think we've got a few players who are 'ok' in a few positions, but great in none of them.

With Murdoch, sure, he's got to find the ball more. But I could never understand putting him in defence as he doesn't have a defensive mindset. His instinct is to get the ball. I don't mind developing another facet to his game, but I would rather he be solidified as a reliable goal a game medium-sized forward first. And he was heading towards that when in 2014, he did average a goal a game. Horlin-Smith's limitations are mostly leg speed. He stars at VFL level as an inside midfielder, and already history is being rewritten that he's never shown anything in the seniors. He has - when he's played as a midfielder. He's not a half forward, he's not a half back. He should be inside the centre square or nowhere.

This is where I differ, I get why clubs love versatility. But not everyone has it, and not everyone needs it. I get the feeling sometimes fans are more excited that a player does play in many positions, it doesn't matter whether or not he actually can.

It's most likely a minority viewpoint.
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I guess the frustrating part for supporters is that it's an inconsistent rule anyway; it 100% depends on the player and their form. Hawkins only got moved into the ruck when his forward play was lacking. Selwood's never been asked to be anything but a first line inside midfielder. Harry Taylor has played predominantly as a CHB or third tall his whole career (his forward roles have been cameos at best). Murdoch, Smedts and GHS are fringe players that have to demand a spot in the team, and GHS is the only one of them that gets played consistently in his best role in the VFL. All I heard about Smedts for the last two years was about how good a midfielder he was in the VFL, but he probably should have been given a role in the forward line and an aim to earn a spot in the team by kicking bags of goals and not letting the ball out of our forward 50. Instead they pumped up his tires about playing in the midfield and then he came up a level and had to play on good AFL midfielders, which he has never been.

Sorry, I get a bit frustrated when I get started on Smedts. He should have been a lock in our forward half whenever he wasn't injured since 2012. I feel sad for the kid.
 
LawnMosey said:
Sorry, I get a bit frustrated when I get started on Smedts. He should have been a lock in our forward half whenever he wasn't injured since 2012. I feel sad for the kid.
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No need to apologise, completely agree. Injuries certainly haven't helped, but it's not like he's ever been given the Murdoch/Blicavs golden ticket either. Now it'll be looked back on as "well he was a dud / never showed anything / was soft" or whatever throwaway garbage gets trotted out. Could and should have been handled a lot better.
 
Doctor Gero said:
This. Have been saying it all year. If we are going to play Lang as a forward then stop playing him in the midfield at VFL level.
Same goes for GHS as he's not good enough to play his preferred role in the AFL side so needs to develop by playing elsewhere at VFL level.
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It's obvious that they're grooming Lang for a midfield role. Like Duncan and Guthrie their initial roles at AFL level were all about getting them exposure at AFL level. Cockatoo is in a similar boat. They just have to build up the required tank.
 
Lana said:
It's obvious that they're grooming Lang for a midfield role. Like Duncan and Guthrie their initial roles at AFL level were all about getting them exposure at AFL level. Cockatoo is in a similar boat. They just have to build up the required tank.
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True, but Guthrie's initial exposure was as a defender. Whatever the potential, Cockatoo is still miles away from being any kind of reliable senior performer.
 
Partridge said:
Every case is different, and each player's situation is different.

I don't blame the club at all for Hamling. Not because he hadn't played a senior game, but it wasn't like he was banging the door down in the VFL because he wasn't. Brown, Horlin-Smith, Smedts and even Kersten all did (and do) that far, far more. The moving players away from their natural positions is a major frustration of mine, and I think that has hindered particularly Murdoch, Smedts, and to a lesser extent Horlin-Smith. Murdoch to me is a natural forward, and if he is given games (and I'm not saying he should be gifted them, he's already done very well at selection) should be in a pocket or on a flank. Horlin-Smith is an inside midfielder. That's it. If they aren't going to play him, then trade him and be done with it. They're still obviously besotted with Blicavs, and I'm with you, if there's a spot in the team it's second ruck or nowhere.

We'll see what changes are made if any next year.
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Hamling was a long-term prospect much like Brown, so it's expected that it would take 3-5 years before he was getting regular games in the seniors.

Problem was Lonergan got that big offer from the bulldogs which the club should have encouraged him to take then we could have fixed our age profile in the backline, instead it forces out Hamling.

We end up with a backline thats too old and slow and our longterm prospect gets punted out for nothing.

We seem to keep a player a year too long then devalue them by trying them in other spots and end up giving them away for nothing.

All these small errors will see us struggling for years to come.
 

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Rating Geelong's Player Development 2011 onwards

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