List Mgmt. Rebuild or refresh?

[sante]

Based on what??
Hes surrounded by guns and is still very hot and cold.
He’s slow at the age of 23.
I think people who suggest he’s our next captain are delusional.

You are the delusional one

 

[box070]

Based on what??
Hes surrounded by guns and is still very hot and cold.
He’s slow at the age of 23.
I think people who suggest he’s our next captain are delusional.

couldnt disagree more. You’re in the minority here

 

[Cdog71]

Why would you not delist Cumberland?? At the end if it suits

I am not having a crack at him.

Have not seen him in the flesh.

I am looking at this independently.

He has had a chance, has been unlucky granted but so have others. Still does his injuries detract from his potential and the bottom line is are their better elsewhere and in the draft?

He could be rookied.

I am not saying yah or nah but something has to give and no footballers are entitled to spots. Turner got cut, it happens. Unless their is something of real diamond quality there would be no desperate need to hold him on the main list would there? He could be rookied, if he develops promote him.

I dunno but I can't see why we should be necessary be falling over ourselves to hold him. Its not like he was a top 10 prospect with some serious upside and we have plenty of others that put it and go hard and play for the team.

Ideally we are trying to strike the next Dusty and Shai or even Balta are we not? While we do there are plenty of options to build support around them.

One way of looking at this is there are substitute replacements for a Cumberland unless he is exceptional, not many substitutes for Dusty, Shai and Balta . Saad was replaced at Essendon effectively enough. If he can be rookied if appropriate he still has another chance to develop and emerge with the team.

We should certainly have a look at him before years end, it would be negligent if we didn't, if he shows enough maybe he stays on the list

What has Turner done since he was cut?? Windows are not open forever so it sounds like if Cumberland can seize the moment he should grab it with both hands

Couldn’t bring myself to like it but I do agree with you MrM

 

[Cdog71]

. Willy's mids are all seasoned footballers

Yep and the blokes who last a few years in the VFL are usually nuggety little blokes that can wear down the the young kids in physically

 

[Sol23]

couldnt disagree more. You’re in the minority here

That’s fine by me. I think I’ll be proven correct.

 

[damicky]

Can we decide after the 3peat?

 

[Oshka]

That’s fine by me. I think I’ll be proven correct.

You are spot on. Graham plays about three good games a year and has barely improved from his first season. He was dropped last year when our midfield was depleted against Port. I don’t think it’s wise giving the captaincy to a bottom six player. We don’t want a Stephen Coniglio type situation on our hands.

 

[Sol23]

You are spot on. Graham plays about three good games a year and has barely improved from his first season. He was dropped last year when our midfield was depleted against Port. I don’t think it’s wise giving the captaincy to a bottom six player. We don’t want a Stephen Coniglio type situation on our hands.

Exactly I just don’t get what some on here see in him…..

 

[Grrr]

Why would you not delist Cumberland?? At the end if it suits

I am not having a crack at him.

Have not seen him in the flesh.

I am looking at this independently.

He has had a chance, has been unlucky granted but so have others. Still does his injuries detract from his potential and the bottom line is are their better elsewhere and in the draft?

He could be rookied.

I am not saying yah or nah but something has to give and no footballers are entitled to spots. Turner got cut, it happens. Unless their is something of real diamond quality there would be no desperate need to hold him on the main list would there? He could be rookied, if he develops promote him.

I dunno but I can't see why we should be necessary be falling over ourselves to hold him. Its not like he was a top 10 prospect with some serious upside and we have plenty of others that put it and go hard and play for the team.

Ideally we are trying to strike the next Dusty and Shai or even Balta are we not? While we do there are plenty of options to build support around them.

One way of looking at this is there are substitute replacements for a Cumberland unless he is exceptional, not many substitutes for Dusty, Shai and Balta . Saad was replaced at Essendon effectively enough. If he can be rookied if appropriate he still has another chance to develop and emerge with the team.

We should certainly have a look at him before years end, it would be negligent if we didn't, if he shows enough maybe he stays on the list

What has Turner done since he was cut?? Windows are not open forever so it sounds like if Cumberland can seize the moment he should grab it with both hands

All well and good, but right now to even be talking about this is nonsense. Come back in 6 weeks and then you will at least have a sample of games to make some sort of assessment. Right now he has played virtually no football at all. Have this conversation about every other player on the list if you like, but Cumberland deserves a chance at least before this conversation should even be brought up.

 

[RunningBounce]

All well and good, but right now to even be talking about this is nonsense. Come back in 6 weeks and then you will at least have a sample of games to make some sort of assessment. Right now he has played virtually no football at all. Have this conversation about every other player on the list if you like, but Cumberland deserves a chance at least before this conversation should even be brought up.

I held out until the bye, but still feel like a bit of a ghoul. Their all Tigers for a while yet.

Wonder when the club makes these decisions? Given how long it takes to sort of contracts, or organise a replacement player, maybe before the bye? Maybe they have the players ranked 1 to 44, and wait until late in the season when things like trades and retirements are settled and just start putting a line through them, starting at the bottom and working their way up?

Definitely too early for supporters to have a good idea about whether we want Cumberland to stay, or put someone else in his spot, but the club may have already made up it's mind.

 

[wegetpumped]

We have the stocks to not need a rebuild. But we need to get games into them if not well we can go south fast. We need to take a stance and say eg Houli enough is enough thank you for your service. Not signaling just Houli that goes for Daniel Rioli, Jack on form deserves another year but a couple of others need to be moved on. Enough of persevering with the Ross types which haven't come on. We have a good hand in the draft we need to make it count.

 

[Grrr]

I held out until the bye, but still feel like a bit of a ghoul. Their all Tigers for a while yet.

Wonder when the club makes these decisions? Given how long it takes to sort of contracts, or organise a replacement player, maybe before the bye? Maybe they have the players ranked 1 to 44, and wait until late in the season when things like trades and retirements are settled and just start putting a line through them, starting at the bottom and working their way up?

Definitely too early for supporters to have a good idea about whether we want Cumberland to stay, or put someone else in his spot, but the club may have already made up it's mind.

Held out to the bye? You realise he didn't play for the first few weeks as he was building up after a reco, played one game where he kicked a brilliant goal and looked pretty good, missed the next week with injury, the next 3 with no VFL and his his second game against Willy, one of the best sides in the comp. Correct me if I'm wrong but that means two games with 5 weeks in between. You seriously think the club may have made up their minds already.

 

[Mr Magic]

All well and good, but right now to even be talking about this is nonsense. Come back in 6 weeks and then you will at least have a sample of games to make some sort of assessment. Right now he has played virtually no football at all. Have this conversation about every other player on the list if you like, but Cumberland deserves a chance at least before this conversation should even be brought up.

This conversation would be made of a number of players.

It could be made of Martyn, Garthwaite, Naish, etc...even Ross not even thinking of each's contract situation. Why would any get special treatment? one has to earn it.

Just because they are young with limited opportunities does not mean they do not get turned over for others in the hope they put out more in he current and years ahead

 

[Grrr]

This conversation would be made of a number of players.

It could be made of Martyn, Garthwaite, Naish, etc...even Ross not even thinking of each's contract situation. Why would any get special treatment? one has to earn it.

Just because they are young with limited opportunities does not mean they do not get turnod over for others in the hope they put out more

As I said, they would all be in the conversation, I would think except Cumberland, well not yet. Of course players with limited (next to none) experience get treated differently. We kept Drummond on the list for years due to two knee reco's and he played quite a bit of footy at Richmond. Didn't save him in the end because he wasn't going to be good enough, but they had a good look at him.

 

[Mr Magic]

As I said, they would all be in the conversation, I would think except Cumberland, well not yet. Of course players with limited (next to none) experience get treated differently. We kept Drummond on the list for years due to two knee reco's and he played quite a bit of footy at Richmond. Didn't save him in the end because he wasn't going to be good enough, but they had a good look at him.

Guys like Caddy could be moved on in a trade, I think he has another year on contract.

Things do not stay static otherwise they stagnate but of course they should be afforded opportunity and get every chance to the end of the year at least. Can't see a guy like Caddy be rookied though.

Our depth was weaker and less proven when Drummond was around I think makes a difference. We are also in contention now overall as a collective team which makes a difference s the now is important even though father time is getting closer for some. See father time is even catching up with the likes of Nadal at the French Open, nothing lasts forever. We all get old, slow down and die at some point, that is life, so seizing the moment when one can is important. Its a fluid situation, work in progress, things can change and everybody's ongoing impact/contribution and timing is different

We have guys on the young side that are making handy contributions to the team that are not super stars but making solid contributions. We need to keep the right balance of affording them what they earn and provide a healthy competition for spots that is fair with the now and future in mind without busting our cap and keeping the team as competitive as possible with the rest of the competition over the journey to improve our ability to win premierships

I was talking to a guy recently that had an interest in the draftees a few years ago watching a pre-draft game at punt road or MCG, might have been before a grand final or other AFL match. They had an interest in watching the progress of a draftee, without elaborating too much, and noticed another. The other was Shai. He said Shai was a standout on what he displayed on the field. Obviously their where other question marks but I thought it was interesting to hear and luckily RFC picked him up in the twenties on draft day. Still it just shows, even when young its important to show something compared to the basket cause ultimately one has to earn it and contribute meaningfully on the field for the team because we are all striving to win premierships somehow!

 

[Del65166]

COVID has meant fringe AFL players have been less opportunity than normal to establish themselves at a club. Where once upon a time we might have been able to retain a Drummond, now we might see Garth types delisted. Funny that Garth, Naish, Stack and a few others in the firing line had good games last week. I hope that Parker can make it. And that might consilidate that mid season draft as a way to get players.
I know we have a great draft hand, but drafting players is a long, long process. For a top side like us, our draftees battle for a spot in the 22. Retirements will help with that. Or do a Miles, Conca, stengle, Ellis and Markov, menadue and change clubs for opportunities

 

[RunningBounce]

Held out to the bye? You realise he didn't play for the first few weeks as he was building up after a reco, played one game where he kicked a brilliant goal and looked pretty good, missed the next week with injury, the next 3 with no VFL and his his second game against Willy, one of the best sides in the comp. Correct me if I'm wrong but that means two games with 5 weeks in between. You seriously think the club may have made up their minds already.

I think we're at crossed purposes here. I'm not talking about Cumberland specifically. I'm talking about delistings generally.

I held out until the bye before posting in this thread.

And I was asking the general question - when do you think the club makes these decisions because I don't know.

 

[Del65166]

I think we're at crossed purposes here. I'm not talking about Cumberland specifically. I'm talking about delistings generally.

I held out until the bye before posting in this thread.

And I was asking the general question - when do you think the club makes these decisions because I don't know.

It complex. List decisions are based on 1) RFC contract offers to RFC players verses outside offers to RFC players which I guess ramp up in the second half of the season. 2) Grigg like mid year injury retirements. Astbury, Houli, Cotchin are the names probably in consideration for retiring off but contingent on our list depth being able to cover them, or bring in replacements Caddy might be shipped to create salary space. Ross may move for opportunity.
3) delisting & re rooking. 4) bringing in players Wallis, Fiorini, Brodie types so not much salary cap there. 5) slowly develop players like Miler & Nyoun & Garth (?) for games in 2022. If Cotchin & Ross leave then we might be a bit stretched for mids RCD looks a natural. Stack, Parker, Cumberland, Martyn maybe.
6) how much we can backload salaries 7) is the economy recovering enough for clubs to go back to 44?
Balme earns his money keeping up with it all
Be interesting to see how CJ, Ryan & Chol go. If any play down back as intercept markers? Or we rue not playing Miller

 

[JR82]

All well and good, but right now to even be talking about this is nonsense. Come back in 6 weeks and then you will at least have a sample of games to make some sort of assessment. Right now he has played virtually no football at all. Have this conversation about every other player on the list if you like, but Cumberland deserves a chance at least before this conversation should even be brought up.

I'd at least give him a full pre season & next yr to see what the kid can do. He's already shown enough to deserve that.

 

[RunningBounce]

It complex. List decisions are based on 1) RFC contract offers to RFC players verses outside offers to RFC players which I guess ramp up in the second half of the season. 2) Grigg like mid year injury retirements. Astbury, Houli, Cotchin are the names probably in consideration for retiring off but contingent on our list depth being able to cover them, or bring in replacements Caddy might be shipped to create salary space. Ross may move for opportunity.
3) delisting & re rooking. 4) bringing in players Wallis, Fiorini, Brodie types so not much salary cap there. 5) slowly develop players like Miler & Nyoun & Garth (?) for games in 2022. If Cotchin & Ross leave then we might be a bit stretched for mids RCD looks a natural. Stack, Parker, Cumberland, Martyn maybe.
6) how much we can backload salaries 7) is the economy recovering enough for clubs to go back to 44?
Balme earns his money keeping up with it all
Be interesting to see how CJ, Ryan & Chol go. If they play down back as intercept markers? Or we rue not playing Miller

Makes my brain hurt. It's not surprising that clubs **** it up, ala Collingwood. I suspect there's too many moving parts to just work it out on the fly. Love to get the inside view of how they navigate it.

I wouldn't mind guessing that they stamp some players papers by this part of the season, just so it's less complicated when the trade and draft periods roll around. For example, if the club tapped Astbury on the shoulder now, they'd know how much salary cap space they can afford in the negotiations with Bolton.

I'd love to see this St Kilda game live to watch how the talls work together, but I can't make it, so I'll just have to make do with the half-a-game the telly broadcasts. It will be interesting. Hardwick's preview was the first time I've heard him talk about our game style and use the word "evolve" instead of "we back our system". Change afoot.

 

[Dr Tigris]

Makes my brain hurt. It's not surprising that clubs fu** it up, ala Collingwood. I suspect there's too many moving parts to just work it out on the fly. Love to get the inside view of how they navigate it.

I wouldn't mind guessing that they stamp some players papers by this part of the season, just so it's less complicated when the trade and draft periods roll around. For example, if the club tapped Astbury on the shoulder now, they'd know how much salary cap space they can afford in the negotiations with Bolton.

I'd love to see this St Kilda game live to watch how the talls work together, but I can't make it, so I'll just have to make do with the half-a-game the telly broadcasts. It will be interesting. Hardwick's preview was the first time I've heard him talk about our game style and use the word "evolve" instead of "we back our system". Change afoot.

Although it's complex, the salary and contract stuff is fairly straightforward. Easy enough to do in Excel for goodness sake!

That the Pies screwed that up shows how unprofessional they are.

The hard bit is the balancing of immediate versus long term, of paying enough to keep stars whilst encouraging youth whilst being able to get other players. Of ensuring your support staff are both good and well balanced in what they do. Clubs do it different ways, but you see the good clubs stay up and keep performing, some clubs have one off years (StK and Melbourne recently), others are always OK, and some are disastrous (Blues ).

You'd have to be working 2 - 3 years ahead in recruitment and team/player development. We've really gone crazy for rucks recently. Which is paying off now with injury. But that is presumably a structured plan for where we think key playing roles are/ will be and where we can get advantage. I can only guess that means we reckon we'll be bale to trade out one or two for good picks/players, and we reckon rucks are vital for winning premierships. Following what Tiger71 has to say we look a year or two ahead and aim to get specific players. Typically it doesn't work, but sometimes it does and we get a gem for a good price. That's where your spreadsheet works overtime. How many $ do we have when? And what picks do we have when? that allows us to do these things. In this structured, but flexible, plan.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

 

[sregit]

Guys like Caddy could be moved on in a trade, I think he has another year on contract.

Things do not stay static otherwise they stagnate but of course they should be afforded opportunity and get every chance to the end of the year at least. Can't see a guy like Caddy be rookied though.

Our depth was weaker and less proven when Drummond was around I think makes a difference. We are also in contention now overall as a collective team which makes a difference s the now is important even though father time is getting closer for some. See father time is even catching up with the likes of Nadal at the French Open, nothing lasts forever. We all get old, slow down and die at some point, that is life, so seizing the moment when one can is important. Its a fluid situation, work in progress, things can change and everybody's ongoing impact/contribution and timing is different

We have guys on the young side that are making handy contributions to the team that are not super stars but making solid contributions. We need to keep the right balance of affording them what they earn and provide a healthy competition for spots that is fair with the now and future in mind without busting our cap and keeping the team as competitive as possible with the rest of the competition over the journey to improve our ability to win premierships

I was talking to a guy recently that had an interest in the draftees a few years ago watching a pre-draft game at punt road or MCG, might have been before a grand final or other AFL match. They had an interest in watching the progress of a draftee, without elaborating too much, and noticed another. The other was Shai. He said Shai was a standout on what he displayed on the field. Obviously their where other question marks but I thought it was interesting to hear and luckily RFC picked him up in the twenties on draft day. Still it just shows, even when young its important to show something compared to the basket cause ultimately one has to earn it and contribute meaningfully on the field for the team because we are all striving to win premierships somehow!

I watched that game (u17s all star game) on the Friday before the GF at Punt road. Shai was one of the best but not the best on ground due to limited game time. However, everything he did was mesmerising. I thought there was no hope with our pick to get him. I was jumping up and down with excitement when he fell through to our pick.

 

[TigerTime88]

Confirmed rebuild.

 

[juss]

Houli, Caddy, Castagna, Aarts, Rioli, Chol, Eggmolesse-Smith.

There's a lot we should/could get rid of...