List Mgmt. Rebuild or refresh?

[The Dice Man]

3 flags in 4 years. IDGAF what happens for the next 10.

 

[Sir_Rancelot]

How can the Old peoples home Geelong continually keep playing finals with an ageing list?
We have a younger list and have managed to fall off the cliff.

Our issue isn't age, it's work ethic and right now they aren't working hard enough and arrogance is showing on and off the field.

I also think Leppa is a huge loss, I would have liked to see a succession plan where he took over from Dimma.

 

[Lsta062]

There has be to be a cut off point. I could easily a make an argument that our guys like Graham and Baker stack up favourably against some of those guys. Wasn't long ago Baker and Graham went head to head with Taranto and Hopper and won the midfield battle on the day. Note - not saying our guys are better than those two.

While the players you have named are all at completely different levels of their development and have different ceilings. Maybe 5 or so you listed will be elite and while most compare to the young talent we have. Sydney Stack for example showed more in first year than half the players you've listed have shown in their careers to date.

I agree we need more young talent and the same applies to any club really but given where we are and where we have been the young talent we have is already years ahead of where it should be.

It is definitely ahead of where we should be (Bolton for example is one of the best young talents in the league) and the support cast is there (like Graham, Baker, CCJ if he stays, Ryan), but I feel like we still need to add players with a potential to be the next star key forward or mid or defender etc. These will the replace our star veterans in the long-term.

As many of us thought before this year, our draft hand this season is excellent because it gives us the opportunity to potentially rectify this in one off-season depending on how strong this draft is overall. The likes of Bolton and Balta are young enough to still be at their peaks when the new group rise up so it would be interesting to see what strategy we will implement. Will we try to do a quick refresh this year by heading to the draft? Will we use our picks to try and get talented youth in? Or will we trade for the now by bringing in players already in their prime? I am against the last strategy because you’ll end up like Hawthorn now or even Geelong (up there, but not competitive enough when it matters).

 

[Lsta062]

How can the Old peoples home Geelong continually keep playing finals with an ageing list?
We have a younger list and have managed to fall off the cliff.

Our issue isn't age, it's work ethic and right now they aren't working hard enough and arrogance is showing on and off the field.

I also think Leppa is a huge loss, I would have liked to see a succession plan where he took over from Dimma.

I think it’s because they keep bringing players in to replace retirees/losses. Or should I say, they seem to have so many decent players nominating to go to Geelong. We’ve only brought in Lynch in the trade/free agency period since about 2016. We didn’t really bring in anyone else tbh.

 

[A Tiger 4 lyf]

We’ve been playing finals for 8 or 7 years & we appear to be dropping off the moment our veterans have hit the wall

“Shocking”


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[fargothegreat]

I think it’s because they keep bringing players in to replace retirees/losses. Or should I say, they seem to have so many decent players nominating to go to Geelong. We’ve only brought in Lynch in the trade/free agency period since about 2016. We didn’t really bring in anyone else tbh.

Geelong's strategy can only be deemed a success if they win another flag. Otherwise it's just delaying the inevitable fall that the salary cap/draft system must bring.

Even then, the only teams that have won multiple flags have all been built from the ground up by hitting the draft hard and picking and developing the right kids.

 

[KeilorUnder9s]

nothing lasts forever, we don’t need to make excuses for the drop offs. It is what it is. The rebuild will be fun. It won’t take 40 years this time.

once the cap opens back up we will get talented coaches back in. I suspect the club is building some money to invest.

 

[Lsta062]

Geelong's strategy can only be deemed a success if they win another flag. Otherwise it's just delaying the inevitable fall that the salary cap/draft system must bring.

Even then, the only teams that have won multiple flags have all been built from the ground up by hitting the draft hard and picking and developing the right kids.

Yeah I agree. That’s how they stayed up, but it isn’t necessarily a good strategy. What’s the point of being contenders when you’re not being competitive when it matters? The likes of Brisbane, Bulldogs or Melbourne have more potential because they are sides that have built their core through the draft like we and Hawthorn did

 

[Tomnat Tigers]

Yeah I agree. That’s how they stayed up, but it isn’t necessarily a good strategy. What’s the point of being contenders when you’re not being competitive when it matters? The likes of Brisbane, Bulldogs or Melbourne have more potential because they are sides that have built their core through the draft like we and Hawthorn did

For whats it's worth. I would back our recruiting department to find quality in the later rounds and rookie draft if we were to spend our higher draft picks on established players to fill the void of retiring players. I wouldn't chase it to the extent Geelong have and would recruit more rounded players than Hawthorn have but with our success of drafting players in later half of the draft, we can afford to risk it a little, especially given our recent first round picks have hardly played to date and will eventually get an opportunity.

After our two most recent games I am much more willing to go hard after someone like Josh Dunkley than I previously was.

 

[From45SlightAngle]

It isn't all doom and gloom. 3 premierships and a season that certainly isn't over. But a refresh will be needed.

Houli, Cotch, Castagna, Caddy, KMac, Chol, Eggmolessee, Naish, Ross, Cumberland can all be delisted, asked to retire or used as trade bait.

One more year should be given to Parker Lambert, Prestia, Pickett, Dow, Rioli, Aarts, Astbury, and Riewoldt. See where we are placed this time next year.

CCJ is cumbersome, but his ability to crash packs and take a grab is worth staying in the side.

Go to the draft with both first round picks, maybe look at trading one of the second rounders. If CCJ gets a high first round pick, take it.

Sign a midfielder in the 23-26 age bracket. Cerra may look vanilla, but if he is surrounded by Dusty and Shai, he may change his game to become the next Cotch (who was a bit the same at that age before bringing in some grunt to his game). Harry Perryman is also one that comes to mind. But if richmond fails to make finals, it may put a lot of players off without paying them overs.

Round 1 Starting 22 (fingers crossed no ACL from Balta, and no traded in or signed free agents)

Grimes Balta Baker
Short Miller Vlastuin
Pickett Prestia Lambert
Martin Lynch Edwards
Riewoldt CCJ Rioli Jnr
Nank Graham Bolton
RCD 1RP Stack Broad

Emg Ralphsmith 1RP Mansell

Still a team capable of winning a flag, but the same process will happen next year. They just can't trade away picks.

 

[Simche]

Last night drove home for me that we really need to build through the draft. Going after a mature inside accumulator could keep us going for a few years, but I don't see enough green shoots at the moment for us to win a flag post 2022. Think next year is our last crack, though I'm unconvinced we can compete properly with the Brisbane's of the league, and a lot of things are going to have to go right.

I personally think we really need to go hard at this draft. It's a deep draft and I'd be moving on deadwood like Garthwaite and retiring a few of our current crop. Realistically this is the time where the picks we used on blokes like Conca, Ellis and Vickery have really cost us the opportunity to keep going. Get two of those picks right and we have a much deeper depth in spots like the midfield.

 

[Del65166]

Although it's complex, the salary and contract stuff is fairly straightforward. Easy enough to do in Excel for goodness sake!

That the Pies screwed that up shows how unprofessional they are.

The hard bit is the balancing of immediate versus long term, of paying enough to keep stars whilst encouraging youth whilst being able to get other players. Of ensuring your support staff are both good and well balanced in what they do. Clubs do it different ways, but you see the good clubs stay up and keep performing, some clubs have one off years (StK and Melbourne recently), others are always OK, and some are disastrous (Blues ).

You'd have to be working 2 - 3 years ahead in recruitment and team/player development. We've really gone crazy for rucks recently. Which is paying off now with injury. But that is presumably a structured plan for where we think key playing roles are/ will be and where we can get advantage. I can only guess that means we reckon we'll be bale to trade out one or two for good picks/players, and we reckon rucks are vital for winning premierships. Following what Tiger71 has to say we look a year or two ahead and aim to get specific players. Typically it doesn't work, but sometimes it does and we get a gem for a good price. That's where your spreadsheet works overtime. How many $ do we have when? And what picks do we have when? that allows us to do these things. In this structured, but flexible, plan.

Excel? Not that easy to use.... plus the calculations required after Balta and Broad go out, with no Bigoa either etc etc. More like a computer that can mine Bitcoin.

 

[_Wang_]

We need to sack someone !!

 

[Mr Magic]

Last night drove home for me that we really need to build through the draft. Going after a mature inside accumulator could keep us going for a few years, but I don't see enough green shoots at the moment for us to win a flag post 2022. Think next year is our last crack, though I'm unconvinced we can compete properly with the Brisbane's of the league, and a lot of things are going to have to go right.

I personally think we really need to go hard at this draft. It's a deep draft and I'd be moving on deadwood like Garthwaite and retiring a few of our current crop. Realistically this is the time where the picks we used on blokes like Conca, Ellis and Vickery have really cost us the opportunity to keep going. Get two of those picks right and we have a much deeper depth in spots like the midfield.

Yeah we need to build through the draft and then top up later and compliment our existing stars.

The only chance we can get near a 2022 premiership is if Rance comes back I think because it will take extra time for Balta to get his body and footy back right and we do not want to rush Balta in his readiness.

Without Rance realistically we are looking at 2023 and even then he would be handy. Rance would be 33 turning 34 in 2023 so not impossible. Nadal is 35 when father time is starting to bite him now at the French

 

[Del65166]

He looks like a star compared to Chol.

Chol played his one good game a year. CJ is a better footballer. Definitely be keeping him. CJ stays ahead of Chol. CJ isn't great in the ruck (yet)

 

[Mr Magic]

Chol played his one good game a year. CJ is a better footballer. Definitely be keeping him. CJ stays ahead of Chol. CJ isn't great in the ruck (yet)

The knocks on CCJ in the ruck are not fair. He is so young and he has a lot of upside. His hands and desire and IQ are quite pleasing I think.

He is a big guy that is mentally in the game which does not come around to often in terms of team awareness.

It is really about giving CCJ games and letting him develop I think. Without focusing too much on the ruck(he needs a more ruck dominant partner in crime), he should just get game time and be allowed to grow and evolve into how he gets better with his teammates

 

[Coach_Required]

I think after last nights results and injuries it is pretty clear that we just need to go to the draft with our 6 picks and rejuvenate our list. Talk of trading players in is gone, no point, we are better off to move some players off our list that we know wont make it, we need to have some honest chats to some of our senior guys and we need to play some of our kids that we know have a future at the club.

Its not all doom and gloom but we need to start the process and making the right decisions from now. Selection Committee included.

 

[Tiger08]

How can the Old peoples home Geelong continually keep playing finals with an ageing list?
We have a younger list and have managed to fall off the cliff.

Our issue isn't age, it's work ethic and right now they aren't working hard enough and arrogance is showing on and off the field.

I also think Leppa is a huge loss, I would have liked to see a succession plan where he took over from Dimma.

Cause they don't win which keeps the oldies extra motivated..

 

[THE_GUN]

Every time you reply, you feed the monkey mate. just remember that.

My belief is, the comment is fair.How much they knew about it before the end of the season last year is still a bit of a mystery - however, having 12 months to reflect on it outside of the chaos of the hub life - none of us know just how exactly it affected the group. There has been a serious lack of system, cohesion & team culture to our club this year, after 4 years of exactly those points being our biggest strength. When the news broke i said that this could possibly break the back of the group. If what we are seeing is that, i don't know - but it certainly makes the comment "fair".

What ol mate said is going to be exactly what a lot of people are going to start thinking - Dimma made that problem himself, no running from it now.
Not many coaches from memory survive very long after they divorce. If anyone has examples of times they were able to, that would be interesting - none really comes to mind tho

There is no problem mate we are trying to shoot fish in the ocean after a loss
Our system is no longer as effective as it once was due to many reasons like the new stand rule and also injuries to Nank where we are getting totally destroyed in the ruck.

people looking for a alternative reason is just crap and the issue was dealt with prior to the season and was known by the players before the finls last year
and if there was an issue it would have been then.

 

[THE_GUN]

How can the Old peoples home Geelong continually keep playing finals with an ageing list?
We have a younger list and have managed to fall off the cliff.

Our issue isn't age, it's work ethic and right now they aren't working hard enough and arrogance is showing on and off the field.

I also think Leppa is a huge loss, I would have liked to see a succession plan where he took over from Dimma.

And they dont win flags , They always just fall short with patch up players

We have an opportunity in this coming draft to replenish our list with some fantastic young talent with 4 picks inside 30(with late pick trades)
Geelong have not seen this many young talented players for 15 years.

Take our beans to the draft and pick the players we need and come back in 2 years for a real crack t a premiership not just make finals

 

[SleepingGiant]

And they dont win flags , They always just fall short with patch up players

We have an opportunity in this coming draft to replenish our list with some fantastic young talent with 4 picks inside 30(with late pick trades)
Geelong have not seen this many young talented players for 15 years.

Take our beans to the draft and pick the players we need and come back in 2 years for a real crack t a premiership not just make finals

Add to that great salary cap management from them to be able to recruit a Cameron. It’s now or never for them and while it’s been year after year, this is definitely the last year with Hawkins, Smith, Higgins, Selwood, Dangerfield, Henderson, etc all hitting the cliff edge from the top of my mind, you can’t just replace that.

 

[JR82]

Unleash the Geish!

 

[Northern Tiger]

I also think Leppa is a huge loss, I would have liked to see a succession plan where he took over from Dimma.

Really glad that I'm not the only one who feels this way about the impact of losing Leppa. I've been saying this to my wife all year, even though there are obviously other factors affecting our performance as well.

Dimma's lack of quality coaching support this season has certainly had an impact.

 

[Tygrys]

And they dont win flags , They always just fall short with patch up players

We have an opportunity in this coming draft to replenish our list with some fantastic young talent with 4 picks inside 30(with late pick trades)
Geelong have not seen this many young talented players for 15 years.

Take our beans to the draft and pick the players we need and come back in 2 years for a real crack t a premiership not just make finals

Depending on what happens to CCJ (whom I want to keep) our draft haul could be quite spectacular.

Even failing that, the way we are going realistically we'll probably get those 4 top 30 picks even without late trading. Markov for Gold Coast's 3rd looks damn good at the moment. Combine that with our third rounder and we might be able to snag another pick deep in the 2nd round, For a team that has won three of the last four premierships and who is not engaging in a fire sale for draft picks that's amazing!

Rebuild, refresh, I don't care what you call it, I would desperately want us to go to the draft with that hand. Nail it and we would be back contending before you know it.

 

[Dr Tigris]

Excel? Not that easy to use.... plus the calculations required after Balta and Broad go out, with no Bigoa either etc etc. More like a computer that can mine Bitcoin.

Nah. I could do the salary and contract stuff easy in excel.

It's the management of it that's so hard.

The Pies somehow or other didn't do the basics and realize they were paying way over the cap. that's easy stuff. Managing to keep the right players and still have cap space to do things is really hard. And to do that whilst trading in and out, and managing possible future scenarios is insanely difficult. But recoding your contract details is easy stuff.