List Mgmt. Rebuild or refresh?

[wegetpumped]

Apparently Montagna thinks Saint Kilda are the bees knees at the moment, how about that?

Apart from Melbourne the comp is fairly even I think, more even than it has been for a long time I think as the draft and trades have done what they are supposed to in terms of equalisation. When Melbourne come off of it eventually, which they have to in time and some of their players are not spring chickens with other problems they can face, we could content again, quicker than some think if we build smart now and develop our youngsters.

I think the growing evenness of the comp helped us get the three premierships. That is, before the likes of Melbourne finally got their act together in the draft, development and execution where really your considering a build up of at least 10 years in terms of the total process, but ignoring Geelong, they to have to come off of it. Although Melbourne they are very good, I do not think they are a super team like Hawks in the 1980's. Melbourne are just a very good team at a time where the rest are very even but in time they will go past their sweet spot and lose players while other teams rise up. Likewise I do not think we where a super team either, we had some great players and great team cohesion at the right time given where the competition competitiveness was at. I think teams towards the bottom are stronger than previous ladders so a premiership from a position close the bottom is more likely now given such growing evenness. So teams like Gold Coast, Adelaide, the Pies, even Essendon are not that bad. Port is on the bottom and obviously it is not that bad with already some youth in their to, and although some of this is to do with the fixture, losing a player(s) here and there makes a bigger difference in a more even comp. North with JHF and others developing will rise up shortly to and are not that bad either and Hawks have a sprinkling of talent coming through to.

Swans are a bit of a case in point. They dropped down once, apart from the mid range dip, and got McDonald but got the likes of Heeney and Mills that are no.1 equivalents as well as other top talent through their academy and the draft. The Swans would not be able to rise as quick if the comp was not as even as it is. Even Geelong would not be able to defy gravity if it was not for the growing evenness of the comp.

With a more even comp the possibility of a genuine quicker rebuild is possible. A team might not have a peak that lasts as long as your opposition rise up quicker but your teams rise can be quicker from a shorter build if the comp becomes more even which seems to be the case. So fans can watch their team build build knowing they could be in finals within four years or so and teams would not be talking about a total gutting of the list. So Swans built with Parker, Josh Kennedy, Franklin etc.. and Parker can still taste premiership success possibly. So Tigers might not be able to contend by 2023 or 2024 although it could be possible, their is a growing possibility of contention in 2025 even with the likes of Grimes and Lynch still around

The thing is sides that were supposed to do something failed badly us from 15 to 16 dogs, west coast 17 18, Melb 20 21 and saints were tipped to do well last season all turned it around and won the flag the next year so the saints are on the same track. The Saints are playing well and I for one wish them the best and hope they win it.

 

[DickieKnee]

The Saints are playing well and I for one wish them the best and hope they win it.

Nah I couldn't stand seeing that worm Higgins with a premiership medal.

 

[A Tiger 4 lyf]

I think the club is way too nice to tell the veterans “hey you’re playing VFL this week”

You’re pretty much ending their career at that point

Im sure they would retire effective immediately than play that level


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[Rioli2Rioli]

I think the club is way too nice to tell the veterans “hey you’re playing VFL this week”

You’re pretty much ending their career at that point

Im sure they would retire effective immediately than play that level


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You are probably right in the club being too nice to the champs but i really cant blame them as i would hate seeing the champs playing VFL with no intention to play them and just play the kids. If they retire asap then it just leaves a bad taste in everybody and disconnect with the club

The players like Jack,Cotchin,Edwards etc still add to the development of the kids and in the 1st year back playing and cuts in soft cap and reduced staffing i think its best they stay until the end on 2022.

We have been a champion club and lets farewell our champions as they deserve and fitting of our great club

 

[Infamy]

Wright was a prohibitive salary dump who was seriously struggling at Gold Coast. Bringing him in at the time on $600k+ not only squeezes our cap, it upsets our pecking order, which I think is very sensibly conformed with not too many players others could point at and say I deserve more than him.

Even though he was on big money, the moment he signed with Essendon they extended his contract by a year to spread his ridiculous salary over a longer term. For what they gave up, it's one that still annoys me that we didn't try to pursue it, we already knew that he teamed up well with Lynch.
Luckily Balta playing forward looks like it has some legs, but I'm bloody annoyed that Wright's playing so well at Essendon

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Even though he was on big money, the moment he signed with Essendon they extended his contract by a year to spread his ridiculous salary over a longer term. For what they gave up, it's one that still annoys me that we didn't try to pursue it, we already knew that he teamed up well with Lynch.
Luckily Balta playing forward looks like it has some legs, but I'm bloody annoyed that Wright's playing so well at Essendon

I think also you have to consider Wright’s position. Is he really going to be interested in coming to Richmond and likely playing VFL with a less favourable deal, over going to the Bombers and playing AFL on a more favourable deal? Remember we had CCJ and Chol at that point too. I think if Riewoldt retired after the 2020 season then making a more serious bid for Wright might have had legs, but Riewoldt was never retiring at that point.

 

[Infamy]

I think also you have to consider Wright’s position. Is he really going to be interested in coming to Richmond and likely playing VFL with a less favourable deal, over going to the Bombers and playing AFL on a more favourable deal? Remember we had CCJ and Chol at that point too. I think if Riewoldt retired after the 2020 season then making a more serious bid for Wright might have had legs, but Riewoldt was never retiring at that point.

Don't disagree on that one
Still annoys me though and never understood why so many armchair experts were writing him off

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Don't disagree on that one
Still annoys me though and never understood why so many armchair experts were writing him off

Wright was an ideal pickup for the Bombers, needing a ruck/forward desperately and having cap space as they did. He found a perfect niche there.

It does look likely Riewoldt will retire this year, I am sure the club will be out there looking for another player who is the right fit. One interesting scenario is North Melbourne with Larkey, Comben, Edwards, Xerri coming through together, you have to wonder if they might be interested in sending CCJ back to us with a small part of his salary paid and getting their second round pick back….in the absence of their being better options for us of course.

 

[Rioli2Rioli]

Wright was an ideal pickup for the Bombers, needing a ruck/forward desperately and having cap space as they did. He found a perfect niche there.

It does look likely Riewoldt will retire this year, I am sure the club will be out there looking for another player who is the right fit. One interesting scenario is North Melbourne with Larkey, Comben, Edwards, Xerri coming through together, you have to wonder if they might be interested in sending CCJ back to us with a small part of his salary paid and getting their second round pick back….in the absence of their being better options for us of course.

I wouldnt take Cj back , He is not fit to wear the jumper and has proven to be of the wrong character traits required

But i would certainly be getting in the ear of tarryn Thomas and LDU

 

[Truetiger]

Any Richmond supporters still deluded that we don't need some sort of rebuild?

I'll go one step further and ask if Hardwick is the right man now, I doubt he wants to rebuild after winning 3 flags.

Who’s the right man for the job.

 

[Truetiger]

I think the club is way too nice to tell the veterans “hey you’re playing VFL this week”

You’re pretty much ending their career at that point

Im sure they would retire effective immediately than play that level


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Of our senior players, who most likely would be the person to put their hand up and say play a kid etc in front of em.

 

[tunksy]

Of our senior players, who most likely would be the person to put their hand up and say play a kid etc in front of em.

edwards. maybe jack.

 

[Muddiemoose]

edwards. maybe jack.

Edwards is a tough one, played an awesome game on the weekend and looked back to his best but every other game been average

Jack on the other hand has looked poor every week and we look less dangerous when he is in the side

 

[Rocco sifreddi]

Edwards is a tough one, played an awesome game on the weekend and looked back to his best but every other game been average

Jack on the other hand has looked poor every week and we look less dangerous when he is in the side

Remember Clarkson dropping Roughhead,
If you're out of form you should be dropped
Jack footy iQ is off the charts unfortunately his body isn't letting him do what he used to
Unfortunately the day has come , what do we do
With shed , Jack and cotch, manage them , drop them , keep.playing them, it's a tough one.

 

[tunksy]

Remember Clarkson dropping Roughhead,
If you're out of form you should be dropped
Jack footy iQ is off the charts unfortunately his body isn't letting him do what he used to
Unfortunately the day has come , what do we do
With shed , Jack and cotch, manage them , drop them , keep.playing them, it's a tough one.

Edwards is a tough one, played an awesome game on the weekend and looked back to his best but every other game been average

Jack on the other hand has looked poor every week and we look less dangerous when he is in the side

Jacks footy smarts and our lack of kpf depth will likely keep him in the side, I think he should be mentoring balta and sampson while playing vfl now. his body just doesnt look like its upto it now. I also believe we are better with two genuine rucks so balta can actually settle forward permanently. he looked lost drifting all over the ground at AO and was easily beaten in the ruck. our best game coincided with jack out unfortunately.

edwards finally played a good game, hopefully his form continues to improve. If not its time to start balancing playing kids with the old heads, especially in the middle.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Remember Clarkson dropping Roughhead,
If you're out of form you should be dropped
Jack footy iQ is off the charts unfortunately his body isn't letting him do what he used to
Unfortunately the day has come , what do we do
With shed , Jack and cotch, manage them , drop them , keep.playing them, it's a tough one.

I think we can all see we are not likely to be in serious contention this season. So you are just managing things for the best overall.

Within that you want to treat your older champs with dignity, it is no bad thing for rising Richmond players to see that happen. You don’t ever want to be uncompetitive, or allow any sense that players are being gifted games in the hope they may one day be up to earning them. You do want to get some games into the youngsters who earn them, but at strategic points, without demoralising the player.

I am confident the club will understand all of this, and they will look to navigate through it by making sound decisions rather than knee-jerk reactions.

 

[A Tiger 4 lyf]

Shedda would have no issue stepping away and allowing a kid to play ahead of him

He seems to have a player welfare/recruitment position locked in at the club post retirement



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[tiger_tough]

Jack isn't keeping a young key forward out of the team and he's still averaging nearly 2 goals a game. He deserves to be playing every week

 

[_RT_]

I feel that messages have definitely been sent to our aging stars, especially Jack and Edwards when both were sent to the bench to star games in recent weeks and also with Jack not being rushed back into the side for Maddies Match when in previous years he would have been.

My question is how long do you carry these guys hoping that they can turn it around before you start having players feeling that double standards are in place when it comes to selection?

That is why I said in another post, when it comes to our aging stars and how we talk about them, we've got to start removing emotion from the discussion, because it's too easy to let emotion get the better of us.

So if I'm being honest I'd be giving Jack 2 weeks to turn his form around before he gets 'rested', while Edwards got himself a bit of a reprieve with a better game on Saturday he's far from safe and a couple of quieter games would have him under the pump, especially with a number of younger players putting their hands up for selection in the VFL. Cotchin is the other senior player I had under the pump after R1 and he has turned things around, but again things could change quite quickly.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Jack isn't keeping a young key forward out of the team and he's still averaging nearly 2 goals a game. He deserves to be playing every week

I think Jack to be selected needs to not be the weakest link out of Nankervis, Soldo, Lynch, Balta, Riewoldt. 4 of those fit into the team, not 5.

I think it is as simple and brutal as that. At the point it is obvious he is the weakest of the 5, and the other 4 are fit, he should be omitted. But for those 4 positions we definitely need the 5 options playing the season out, because there is no 6th option anywhere near Jack’s level at this stage.

It just needs to be handled sensibly. Do nothing until you need to, but communicate with the players at all times about the possibilities so nothing comes as a great shock.

 

[JR82]

Any Richmond supporters still deluded that we don't need some sort of rebuild?

I'll go one step further and ask if Hardwick is the right man now, I doubt he wants to rebuild after winning 3 flags.

He's contracted for the next 2 yrs after this yr so he has to be the man for the job. We can't be doing a LOLthorn re: Clarkson

 

[JR82]

I’ll be honest … all my views about Balta forward in the pre-season were ‘what are we thinking?’ He’s a gun FB so why move him. But then you think about players who are capable at both ends… and it’s much, much harder to find quality key forwards who can break games open.

That’s why Naughton plays KPF despite being a defender as a junior. It’s why Neitz played forward despite being a gun CHB. Max King was a CHB as a junior I believe? Pavlich settled in as a KPF despite being AA in defence.

I’m not sure I can think of a player who has shown they can be a quality and consistent forward or back where the backline is where they settle..?? Maybe Darcy Moore … although he has never shown consistency as a KPF.

Sicily showed glimpses up forward but was inconsistent. Tom and even Patty McCartin the same. Astbury was drafted as a key forward. Tom Lonergan was a KPF also. Liam Jones. Ted Richards

History tells you ‘failed’ key forwards can become AA quality key defenders. And if players are capable in both positions they are generally played forward.

For this reason I’ve seen enough of Balta forward to decide for our future he should be persevered with as a forward/ruck. And history tells you KPD are much easier to find via draft, trade or re-positioning of a failed forward.

Footnote: If Balta is struggling to have an impact as a KPF in 2023 I’ve got no issue in putting him back, just as the Pies did with Moore. But we’re better off finding out if he has the goods up forward whilst he is 22yo and we are putting in the building blocks of our next flag tilt.


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The other benefit of playing Balta fwd IMO is that we get games into Miller. If Balta plays back Miller spends another yr in the VFL & we lose him at seasons end. Miller has done nothing wrong at AFL level thus far & needs more games this yr. Balta fwd is also taking 0 games off anyone & is a good stop gap till we can (hopefully) draft a decent KPF this yr. Only other fwd option we have is S.Ryan who is a way off being ready, the way we pick the side allows him the VFL time he needs.

 

[wegetpumped]

I feel that messages have definitely been sent to our aging stars, especially Jack and Edwards when both were sent to the bench to star games in recent weeks and also with Jack not being rushed back into the side for Maddies Match when in previous years he would have been.

My question is how long do you carry these guys hoping that they can turn it around before you start having players feeling that double standards are in place when it comes to selection?

That is why I said in another post, when it comes to our aging stars and how we talk about them, we've got to start removing emotion from the discussion, because it's too easy to let emotion get the better of us.

So if I'm being honest I'd be giving Jack 2 weeks to turn his form around before he gets 'rested', while Edwards got himself a bit of a reprieve with a better game on Saturday he's far from safe and a couple of quieter games would have him under the pump, especially with a number of younger players putting their hands up for selection in the VFL. Cotchin is the other senior player I had under the pump after R1 and he has turned things around, but again things could change quite quickly.

Doesn't matter how you look at it it's a no-win situation. Big names are what bring's money to clubs. You also have stars that have given so much and we can see what is happening on the other side you have young players trying to get to the position of the previous stars. Either way, you upset one or the other. Instead of blending and leaving them in the side to get that experience, we persist with George Aarts and the likes, going out and getting Parker so what message is that sending not good I presume.

 

[tunksy]

The thing is sides that were supposed to do something failed badly us from 15 to 16 dogs, west coast 17 18, Melb 20 21 and saints were tipped to do well last season all turned it around and won the flag the next year so the saints are on the same track. The Saints are playing well and I for one wish them the best and hope they win it.

Rather see them or freo then anyone else besides us obviously

 

[TigerTime88]

I feel that messages have definitely been sent to our aging stars, especially Jack and Edwards when both were sent to the bench to star games in recent weeks and also with Jack not being rushed back into the side for Maddies Match when in previous years he would have been.

My question is how long do you carry these guys hoping that they can turn it around before you start having players feeling that double standards are in place when it comes to selection?

That is why I said in another post, when it comes to our aging stars and how we talk about them, we've got to start removing emotion from the discussion, because it's too easy to let emotion get the better of us.

So if I'm being honest I'd be giving Jack 2 weeks to turn his form around before he gets 'rested', while Edwards got himself a bit of a reprieve with a better game on Saturday he's far from safe and a couple of quieter games would have him under the pump, especially with a number of younger players putting their hands up for selection in the VFL. Cotchin is the other senior player I had under the pump after R1 and he has turned things around, but again things could change quite quickly.

I would love to see Shedda get to 300 games.