List Mgmt. Rebuild or refresh?

[Mr Magic]

Re Hopper or Taranto, when will people realise that buying players and trading away your future for B graders results in long term mediocrity only for a Gold Coast or Sydney to dominate you for the next few years let alone trying to overcome a Melbourne does not work?

Do you really think getting Hopper is going to dismantle Melbourne with our list at the moment? You have to absolutely kidding yourselves if you think we can win the flag next year trading for a B+ mid to think that makes our midfield anywhere remotely near our 2017 prime Cotchin, Prestia, Martin, Edwards midfield.

100 percent.

We are better off killing two birds with one stone. Go to the draft, support Cotch, Dusty and Sonsie etc with minimal cost and it might be enough and we are far stronger at the end of it for future windows keeping Bolton and the draftees and Balta etc. together

 

[Rioli2Rioli]

100 percent.

We are better off killing two birds with one stone. Go to the draft, support Cotch, Dusty and Sonsie etc with minimal cost and it might be enough and we are far stronger at the end of it for future windows keeping Bolton and the draftees and Balta etc. together

Again go to the draft and we may end up with another RCD

 

[Mr Magic]

Again go to the draft and we may end up with another RCD

RCD was a later pick and more speculative. RCD was never a proven inside mid despite the attempts of the marketing department posters on bigfooty.

I think there are more proven inside mids in this draft with size, I have hardly seen any vision of teh candidates yet and some will go high. Hopper simply is not good enough given he will be 26 as well next year, not worth it pick wise, not worth the salary.

No one knows what will happen in the draft yet and what machinations will still occur. We can trade up and down , go in and out so who knows what happens when more is known closer to the day

 

[DeLaCon]

Jhye Clark and Oliver Hollands in the draft would be nice.

 

[Rioli2Rioli]

RCD was a later pick and more speculative. RCD was never a proven inside mid despite the attempts of the marketing department posters on bigfooty.

I think there are more proven inside mids in this draft with size, I have hardly seen any vision of teh candidates yet and some will go high. Hopper simply is not good enough given he will be 26 as well next year, not worth it pick wise, not worth the salary.

No one knows what will happen in the draft yet and what machinations will still occur. We can trade up and down , go in and out so who knows what happens when more is known closer to the day

You are now talking with the benefit of hindsight, RCD was considered a big inside mid during his draft year and expected to be selected between 12-20
Other mids in that group were
Ely Smith , Jackson Hately , Liam Stocker , Jye Caldwell

You believe there are more proven inside inside mids this draft , Name them
the ones that will be available after top 10

Its all just specualtion as it was with RCD , Dow and the players above

 

[Noidnadroj]

Re Hopper or Taranto, when will people realise that buying players and trading away your future for B graders results in long term mediocrity only for a Gold Coast or Sydney to dominate you for the next few years let alone trying to overcome a Melbourne does not work?

Do you really think getting Hopper is going to dismantle Melbourne with our list at the moment? You have to absolutely kidding yourselves if you think we can win the flag next year trading for a B+ mid to think that makes our midfield anywhere remotely near our 2017 prime Cotchin, Prestia, Martin, Edwards midfield.

I think you are also kidding yourself if you think we are likely to get an A-grade elite mid at pick 10-12 or wherever we finish. Super elite mids are very very rarely still there at pick-10… there are of course exceptions, but a lifetime of drafts tells you it’s a real lottery beyond pick-10.

Be honest … if Taranto was in the National draft this year then where do you think he’d be picked? I don’t know exactly where, but I guarantee it would be before pick-10.

So take a chance on a youngster and maybe get a dud, or get a guaranteed gun mid at their peak for another 5-7 years? We did that with Prestia and that turned out pretty well.


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[SleepingGiant]

I think you are also kidding yourself if you think we are likely to get an A-grade elite mid at pick 10-12 or wherever we finish. Super elite mids are very very rarely still there at pick-10… there are of course exceptions, but a lifetime of drafts tells you it’s a real lottery beyond pick-10.

Be honest … if Taranto was in the National draft this year then where do you think he’d be picked? I don’t know exactly where, but I guarantee it would be before pick-10.

So take a chance on a youngster and maybe get a dud, or get a guaranteed gun mid at their peak for another 5-7 years? We did that with Prestia and that turned out pretty well.


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Name one club that has won a flag without top 5 draft picks, or father son, or merger? Cotchin, Martin, Prestia all top 5 picks. Riewoldt and lynch top 10. So we either trade players to trade up our picks, or we get your Hopper and hop down to ninth for 5 years.

The draft is the only way and you must walk your tightrope of picking the wrong player. The only exception may be Geelong and that is corrupting the rules and selling FAs a surfcoast lifestyle with young families and buying them. Either way they are still moneyballing A Graders.

So back to you, how do you win a flag without going to the deep end of the draft by either trading up or bottoming out for two years?

 

[SleepingGiant]

You’ll be surprised what adding 2 or 3 players would do to improve the team. Especially if they are at least B+ grade in your weakest area.


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Yeah Yarran, Aaron Edwards, and all the other recycled bullshit early in Hardwicks era really worked didn’t it? It wasn’t until the young Top 5 and Top 30 draft pick core of our list reached a peak age to contend in 2017 supplemented by trading in a top 5 pick in Prestia and top 10 pick in Caddy and top 10 FA in Lynch did. Not B graders. A GRADERS.

Draft, draft, draft then grab your ELITE A graders via the strategy. Not limp dick a B+ when the window is shutting.

 

[Mr Magic]

Name one club that has won a flag without top 5 draft picks, or father son, or merger? Cotchin, Martin, Prestia all top 5 picks. Riewoldt and lynch top 10. So we either trade players to trade up our picks, or we get your Hopper and hop down to ninth for 5 years.

The draft is the only way and you must walk your tightrope of picking the wrong player. The only exception may be Geelong and that is corrupting the rules and selling FAs a surfcoast lifestyle with young families and buying them. Either way they are still moneyballing A Graders.

So back to you, how do you win a flag without going to the deep end of the draft by either trading up or bottoming out for two years?

Melbourne are heavily reliant on Oliver and Trac,.

Geelong had a great team then Dangerfield and then reliant on Cameron. Even Smith was a first rounder and they rely on talent and ability

 

[Noidnadroj]

Name one club that has won a flag without top 5 draft picks, or father son, or merger? Cotchin, Martin, Prestia all top 5 picks. Riewoldt and lynch top 10. So we either trade players to trade up our picks, or we get your Hopper and hop down to ninth for 5 years.

The draft is the only way and you must walk your tightrope of picking the wrong player. The only exception may be Geelong and that is corrupting the rules and selling FAs a surfcoast lifestyle with young families and buying them. Either way they are still moneyballing A Graders.

So back to you, how do you win a flag without going to the deep end of the draft by either trading up or bottoming out for two years?

How many clubs can you name who don’t have top-5 picks, quality academy/zone picks or quality father-sons worthy of top-5 on their list ?

It’s basically every team, every year … so of course the flag winning team has them.

Dogs : Bont, Macrae, JUH, Darcy
Pies: Pendles, Daicos, Moore
Tigers: Cotchin, Martin, Prestia
GWS: Taranto, Kelly, Whitfield, Callaghan, Coniglio
Freo: Brayshaw
Brisbane: Rayner, mcLuggage
Sydney: Heeney, Mills, Buddy
Carlton: Weitering, Walsh, Cerra
Essendon: Parish, McGrath
GC: Rankine, Lukocious, King
Saints: King, Billings, Crouch
Geelong: Hawkins, Cameron
Hawks; Ward, DGB, Wingard, O’Meara
Crows: Thilthorpe,
North: LDU, JHF, Cunnington

There’s plenty of players around top-5 I’ve missed I’m sure.

So almost no matter who wins the flag, you can say “See, they have a range of top-5 picks on their list”

If Bolton, Baker, Gibcus and Balta were taken top-5 in their respective drafts then would that be OK? What’s it matter that Bolton and Balta were taken in the 20s given a re-draft would have Bolton number 1 and Balta top-5? And Baker would be top-10 and Gibcus maybe top-5 and not 9.

Taranto was a pick-2, who we could get perhaps for equivalent of pick-10 and pick-30. Keeping in mind teams don’t easily hand over top-5 picks so it’s not like it’s easy to turn 10 and 30 into 5.

So Taranto or 2 x kids at 10 and 30? Give me the locked and loaded guaranteed gun player with a blemish free off-field record every day of the week.

If we are not planning on winning a flag whilst Taranto is still playing (up to at least 2030) then what the hell are we doing?



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[Mr Magic]

You are now talking with the benefit of hindsight, RCD was considered a big inside mid during his draft year and expected to be selected between 12-20
Other mids in that group were
Ely Smith , Jackson Hately , Liam Stocker , Jye Caldwell

You believe there are more proven inside inside mids this draft , Name them
the ones that will be available after top 10

Its all just specualtion as it was with RCD , Dow and the players above

Actually he was not considered a big inside mid. He was a tall utility and no one was really sure how he would fit. It is not as if he was racking up big inside mid numbers in his draft year. He had some contested stats but not high volume and would cover the ground and take marks covering the ground

Last year Ward was a more proven inside mid. As was JHF although he could play forward. Compare Ward to the Freo guy Mathew Johnson who went in the second round who was seen as a little more iffy inside

even Cripps was a gamble, no one knew he would do what he would do when he was selected.

Oliver was a bit more proven with his late charge in his draft year, Bont was just seen as a special set of skills for a taller guy.

Judd was more proven, Hodge more proven

When you talk about RCD, he can be a effective player in certain roles but it is hard for him to compete with ground ball due to his height because it is a hard for him maintaining balance when reaching low in contested situations as a observer.

Cripps is a different player to RCD. Cripps relies on his aerial strength and power generally far more than RCD. Thats why I say RCD seems to want to be a tall small guy but with his height like Cripps its harder for him to compete with the ground ball. Note before Macrae went inside he played on the wing and Bont is a bit of a freak when it comes to first touch and balance. Macrae and Bont have Libba inside to

 

[Rioli2Rioli]

Actually he was not considered a big inside mid. He was a tall utility and no one was really sure how he would fit. It is not as if he was racking up big inside mid numbers in his draft year. He had some contested stats but not high volume and would cover the ground and take marks covering the ground

Last year Ward was a more proven inside mid. As was JHF although he could play forward. Compare Ward to the Freo guy Mathew Johnson who went in the second round who was seen as a little more iffy inside

even Cripps was a gamble, no one knew he would do what he would do when he was selected.

Oliver was a bit more proven with his late charge in his draft year, Bont was just seen as a special set of skills for a taller guy.

Judd was more proven, Hodge more proven

When you talk about RCD, he can be a effective player in certain roles but it is hard for him to compete with ground ball due to his height because it is a hard for him maintaining balance when reaching low in contested situations as a observer.

Cripps is a different player to RCD. Cripps relies on his aerial strength and power generally far more than RCD. Thats why I say RCD seems to want to be a tall small guy but with his height like Cripps its harder for him to compete with the ground ball. Note before Macrae went inside he played on the wing and Bont is a bit of a freak when it comes to first touch and balance. Macrae and Bont have Libba inside to

DRAFT ANALYSIS: “An explosive tall midfielder who excels at winning stoppages”

Riley Collier-Dawkins Draft Profile

DRAFT ANALYSIS: “An explosive tall midfielder who excels at winning stoppages”

central.rookieme.com

9. Riley Collier-Dawkins (VIC)
Best position: Inside midfield

https://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_...ower-rankings-caldwell-collier-dawkins-top-10

TOMORROW'S HEROES Big-bodied midfielder with loads of potential

2018 Phantom Draft

AFL Draft expert Callum Twomey predicts who the Cats will pick this week

www.geelongcats.com.au

Your embarrassing yourself there are dozens of articles and mock drafts that are saying he is a big inside midfielder
maybe use google to help you with your information

 

[wegetpumped]

Apparently we were all in for Stocker and when he went we rushed to get the next best thing. Not sure whos better though lol

 

[Falcon3518]

Yeah Yarran, Aaron Edwards, and all the other recycled bullshit early in Hardwicks era really worked didn’t it? It wasn’t until the young Top 5 and Top 30 draft pick core of our list reached a peak age to contend in 2017 supplemented by trading in a top 5 pick in Prestia and top 10 pick in Caddy and top 10 FA in Lynch did. Not B graders. A GRADERS.

Draft, draft, draft then grab your ELITE A graders via the strategy. Not limp dick a B+ when the window is shutting.

Caddy and Nank were B grade. Look what it did. Prestia isn’t as good as Taranto or De Goey either, but still all A grade. We trade in instead of going to the draft lottery because we are only missing a few pieces of the puzzle like lynch in 2019. If we f up the draft we waste Bolton’s prime years.


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[From45SlightAngle]

Caddy and Nank were B grade. Look what it did. Prestia isn’t as good as Taranto or De Goey either, but still all A grade. We trade in instead of going to the draft lottery because we are only missing a few pieces of the puzzle like lynch in 2019. If we f up the draft we waste Bolton’s prime years.


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Prestia is better than both DeGoey and Taranto. Neither of them are worthy of shining his boots. Caddy was at minimum a B+ who flourished into an A grader. Right now is draft our first round pick especially if it’s top 10, then use our two second rounders to bring in an A grade talent. Which is doable.

 

[Mr Magic]

DRAFT ANALYSIS: “An explosive tall midfielder who excels at winning stoppages”

Riley Collier-Dawkins Draft Profile

DRAFT ANALYSIS: “An explosive tall midfielder who excels at winning stoppages”

central.rookieme.com

9. Riley Collier-Dawkins (VIC)
Best position: Inside midfield

https://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_...ower-rankings-caldwell-collier-dawkins-top-10

TOMORROW'S HEROES Big-bodied midfielder with loads of potential

2018 Phantom Draft

AFL Draft expert Callum Twomey predicts who the Cats will pick this week

www.geelongcats.com.au

Your embarrassing yourself there are dozens of articles and mock drafts that are saying he is a big inside midfielder
maybe use google to help you with your information

Do you think I am losing sleep because the marketing department says explosive tall midfielder who excels winning at stoppages?

Notice it did not say inside mid. Notice also it said explosive. Notice it said wins at stoppage.

Notice it did not say consistently wins at stoppage. Notice it did not say. high number inside mid. Our bigfooty posters at the time mentioned inconsistency, early on, even with the early games for RFC. I can recall the back and forth posts. Come on, its not hard to ignore the reality. Ground ball never was very strong for RCD. In his draft he was 191cm, now 193cm. Jack Macrae is 191 not 193. Can make a difference especially for a slightly different body type. I mentioned before possible roles in the backhalf. Never was there comments high possession inside mid I can recall. Look RFC took a bit of a punt, he slipped for a reason. Macrae played wing intially

I am not totally writing RCD off. Posters can look at my posts all the way back and be fully aware from the history there where question marks about pure inside mid from me not that I am a god as a observer. Just saying some signs where there but you have to use the pick on someone and I am not blaming RFC for it. I was no where near on the inside mid bandwagon that other bigfooty posters where. I mentioned the backline and some seriously questioned that, possibly rightfully. I think it was Tigerimposter replying to one of my posts who wrote he can't play back. His Tomorrow hero cameo talked about him as a possible forward. Not sure on that

I think RCD needs to understand his strengths and go from there. Every player is different. Can RCD be more effective as a mobile taller type instead of a taller small type? RCD options have not been fully explored for mine, so I do not wish to throw him out with the bathwater yet. Can he provide a chop out on a wing as a base starter?

Maybe put him on the rookie list. RCD may not make it, no one is certain guaranteed. Maybe put him on the rookie list, try a few different roles and if nothing comes of it bust. Trying Martyn in the backline is is as bust as one can get.

RCD might be able to play some wing, do not think Ross can effectively but Ralpsmith looks to be going past them let alone Sonsie, and Cumberland.

I am not one to say we have to keep RCD. We have to keep Ross. Both might go. I just do not like no stone unturned so all opportunities have been explored before any exit buttons have been pushed

 

[Dr Tigris]

You are now talking with the benefit of hindsight, RCD was considered a big inside mid during his draft year and expected to be selected between 12-20
Other mids in that group were
Ely Smith , Jackson Hately , Liam Stocker , Jye Caldwell

You believe there are more proven inside inside mids this draft , Name them
the ones that will be available after top 10

Its all just specualtion as it was with RCD , Dow and the players above

RCD was considered so highly because of his tools, and potential. He hadn't played top line juniors until his draft year. He had size, explosive power, good skills. Everything we know he does actually have. The issues were all around limited exposure at that top junior level and uncertainty around his attitude etc. Which we now know were real issues.

He was seen as an inside mid with the potential to play outside or forward to his size, speed and skill.

What we have seen is he hasn't stepped up. that's on him. He's had the chances. He's the sort of player that sometimes just clicks and becomes really good -it's all there potentially).

When you pick around 20+ you have that issue, the real known top talents are gone. You pick on potential and developability (is that a word?). It looks like Sonsie is the real article. Poor attitude in his draft year, and looking good now. We'll see, but you'd expect maybe 1/3 of that sort of pick to really work if you are really good at drafting and development. We seem to go for higher ceiling types, with associated higher risk. Some are Balta or Shai. Some are CCJ or RCD. If you get enough right you have a top end core without having top 5 picks. That seems to be our plan.

 

[Rioli2Rioli]

RCD was considered so highly because of his tools, and potential. He hadn't played top line juniors until his draft year. He had size, explosive power, good skills. Everything we know he does actually have. The issues were all around limited exposure at that top junior level and uncertainty around his attitude etc. Which we now know were real issues.

He was seen as an inside mid with the potential to play outside or forward to his size, speed and skill.

What we have seen is he hasn't stepped up. that's on him. He's had the chances. He's the sort of player that sometimes just clicks and becomes really good -it's all there potentially).

When you pick around 20+ you have that issue, the real known top talents are gone. You pick on potential and developability (is that a word?). It looks like Sonsie is the real article. Poor attitude in his draft year, and looking good now. We'll see, but you'd expect maybe 1/3 of that sort of pick to really work if you are really good at drafting and development. We seem to go for higher ceiling types, with associated higher risk. Some are Balta or Shai. Some are CCJ or RCD. If you get enough right you have a top end core without having top 5 picks. That seems to be our plan.

Exactly the point i am trying to make to majic

Any player picked outside the top 10 is speculative and hit and miss
if you have the opportunity to trade for a known top talent like Toranto who is only 24 - You do that trade

 

[Rioli2Rioli]

Do you think I am losing sleep because the marketing department says explosive tall midfielder who excels winning at stoppages?

Notice it did not say inside mid. Notice also it said explosive. Notice it said wins at stoppage.

Notice it did not say consistently wins at stoppage. Notice it did not say. high number inside mid. Our bigfooty posters at the time mentioned inconsistency, early on, even with the early games for RFC. I can recall the back and forth posts. Come on, its not hard to ignore the reality. Ground ball never was very strong for RCD. In his draft he was 191cm, now 193cm. Jack Macrae is 191 not 193. Can make a difference especially for a slightly different body type. I mentioned before possible roles in the backhalf. Never was there comments high possession inside mid I can recall. Look RFC took a bit of a punt, he slipped for a reason. Macrae played wing intially

I am not totally writing RCD off. Posters can look at my posts all the way back and be fully aware from the history there where question marks about pure inside mid from me not that I am a god as a observer. Just saying some signs where there but you have to use the pick on someone and I am not blaming RFC for it. I was no where near on the inside mid bandwagon that other bigfooty posters where. I mentioned the backline and some seriously questioned that, possibly rightfully. I think it was Tigerimposter replying to one of my posts who wrote he can't play back. His Tomorrow hero cameo talked about him as a possible forward. Not sure on that

I think RCD needs to understand his strengths and go from there. Every player is different. Can RCD be more effective as a mobile taller type instead of a taller small type? RCD options have not been fully explored for mine, so I do not wish to throw him out with the bathwater yet. Can he provide a chop out on a wing as a base starter?

Maybe put him on the rookie list. RCD may not make it, no one is certain guaranteed. Maybe put him on the rookie list, try a few different roles and if nothing comes of it bust. Trying Martyn in the backline is is as bust as one can get.

RCD might be able to play some wing, do not think Ross can effectively but Ralpsmith looks to be going past them let alone Sonsie, and Cumberland.

I am not one to say we have to keep RCD. We have to keep Ross. Both might go. I just do not like no stone unturned so all opportunities have been explored before any exit buttons have been pushed

Thats alot of effort to try to convince yourself and attempt to double down

You claimed RCD was not considered a mid - You are WRONG

 

[JR82]

Fair call, but how do we know until we try (e.g. Miller, Sonsie and Cumberland)? Trent, Jack and Dusty aren't going to get better next year. People were complaining about carry Shedda to 300 and the impact it had on the team. Try carrying three ageing champions in a middle-ranked team. It's just my opinion that waiting is delaying the inevitable.

I agree on your points, what i'd say to any kids from next yr is perform consistently in the VFL & you'll earn your spot. all the kids u mention here have done just that. Miller has done nothing wrong at snr level & has only not played every game due to there not being a spot for him. Cumberland hasn't looked back since debuting & Sonsie just needs a tank which the upcoming pre season will do him wonders. We are in a good spot, the kids pushing the older blokes out is what is making us better in the shorter term let alone longer term.

 

[Mr Magic]

Thats alot of effort to try to convince yourself and attempt to double down

You claimed RCD was not considered a mid - You are WRONG

I never claimed he was not considered a mid. You like to write a good story!!

I wrote he was never considered a proven inside mid

 

[Del65166]

Yeah Yarran, Aaron Edwards, and all the other recycled bullshit early in Hardwicks era really worked didn’t it? It wasn’t until the young Top 5 and Top 30 draft pick core of our list reached a peak age to contend in 2017 supplemented by trading in a top 5 pick in Prestia and top 10 pick in Caddy and top 10 FA in Lynch did. Not B graders. A GRADERS.

Draft, draft, draft then grab your ELITE A graders via the strategy. Not limp dick a B+ when the window is shutting.

The window is shutting. The list is all one year older. If they really want a flag next year retire delist or trade. Graham, Macintosh, Broad, Jack r, cotch, Edwards, Grimes, RCD, Ross, Dow. Anyone who wont be in the best 22. Bring in 3 gun mids and go for flag glory.

 

[wegetpumped]

The hate on Broad year after year I just don't get as he's been our most consistent back. Hardly puts a foot wrong instead we idolize a vlastin who gives away more goals than he saves. Macca and Graham are good players who will thrive with better quality around them. They are not match winners but are players required to win matches.

 

[Dr Tigris]

Exactly the point i am trying to make to majic

Any player picked outside the top 10 is speculative and hit and miss
if you have the opportunity to trade for a known top talent like Toranto who is only 24 - You do that trade

Exactly.

We've been picking big bodied inside mids for years and haven't got it right yet. Ross looks like a decent B grade mid. That's OK, but you really want some genuine talent in there to win premierships.

It's one of those things, you pick for talent. And by pick 20 the sure A graders are gone. Sometimes you get Shai Bolton, sometimes you get a decent B grader, sometimes you get flashes, but nothing serious, sometimes you get nothing.

The really good inside mids tend to be top 10 picks. Sort of like high end KPFs. So if we have to trade for one, then so be it.

 

[energyquant]

The window is shutting. The list is all one year older. If they really want a flag next year retire delist or trade. Graham, Macintosh, Broad, Jack r, cotch, Edwards, Grimes, RCD, Ross, Dow. Anyone who wont be in the best 22. Bring in 3 gun mids and go for flag glory.

You can't turn over a list that quickly. Graham, Macca, Broad, Grimes are all locks for 2023.