List Mgmt. Rebuild or refresh?

[Mr Magic]

Exactly.

We've been picking big bodied inside mids for years and haven't got it right yet. Ross looks like a decent B grade mid. That's OK, but you really want some genuine talent in there to win premierships.

It's one of those things, you pick for talent. And by pick 20 the sure A graders are gone. Sometimes you get Shai Bolton, sometimes you get a decent B grader, sometimes you get flashes, but nothing serious, sometimes you get nothing.

The really good inside mids tend to be top 10 picks. Sort of like high end KPFs. So if we have to trade for one, then so be it.

Not sure what is a A, B, C, D etc..
mid these days

Not sure Ross is a B grade yet. Yet I would rather keep him than trade for Hopper. I think mids with height and size that can move are very valuable coming from the Lions days and then Geelong premiership teams with Bartel, Ling etc.. Warner was a later pick. They come on quicker compared to KPP. Even if we picked up someone like a Hewett of CFC in the draft it might make a difference with a later pick. If it does not work it does not work and you go again.

I think Clarke's team has been pretty good in recent drafts. They seem to know what they are doing for mine and I have confidence in them they have the right eyes of what to look for generally.

Every years different , I think they have a eye for talent and value, I don't think one can force these things unless there are obvious ones that have slipped wrongly, to got to play how each draft goes. I think the drafts have changed a bit in recent years, They seem to be getting a bit deeper but more speculative

For me I tend to know more when I look at a players highlights and vision. A guy like Ward last year, you know is going to be good because he ticks various boxes including on the vision. But it looks like we got a good value pickup in Sonsie

 

[Del65166]

How many clubs can you name who don’t have top-5 picks, quality academy/zone picks or quality father-sons worthy of top-5 on their list ?

It’s basically every team, every year … so of course the flag winning team has them.

Dogs : Bont, Macrae, JUH, Darcy
Pies: Pendles, Daicos, Moore
Tigers: Cotchin, Martin, Prestia
GWS: Taranto, Kelly, Whitfield, Callaghan, Coniglio
Freo: Brayshaw
Brisbane: Rayner, mcLuggage
Sydney: Heeney, Mills, Buddy
Carlton: Weitering, Walsh, Cerra
Essendon: Parish, McGrath
GC: Rankine, Lukocious, King
Saints: King, Billings, Crouch
Geelong: Hawkins, Cameron
Hawks; Ward, DGB, Wingard, O’Meara
Crows: Thilthorpe,
North: LDU, JHF, Cunnington

There’s plenty of players around top-5 I’ve missed I’m sure.

So almost no matter who wins the flag, you can say “See, they have a range of top-5 picks on their list”

If Bolton, Baker, Gibcus and Balta were taken top-5 in their respective drafts then would that be OK? What’s it matter that Bolton and Balta were taken in the 20s given a re-draft would have Bolton number 1 and Balta top-5? And Baker would be top-10 and Gibcus maybe top-5 and not 9.

Taranto was a pick-2, who we could get perhaps for equivalent of pick-10 and pick-30. Keeping in mind teams don’t easily hand over top-5 picks so it’s not like it’s easy to turn 10 and 30 into 5.

So Taranto or 2 x kids at 10 and 30? Give me the locked and loaded guaranteed gun player with a blemish free off-field record every day of the week.

If we are not planning on winning a flag whilst Taranto is still playing (up to at least 2030) then what the hell are we doing?



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Since Cotch, Dusty times the top 5 or top 10 drafted players have had good careers, played a lot. But do we factor in they are often in poor sides/franchise sides and like and get a lot of games? Our top 10 draft picks mids are pushing 30 years old. The Dogs midfield is not dragging them across the line to wins anymore West Coast have fallen off tne cliff despite bringing in Kelly to their midfield.
Giants have got a glut of mids.
Is Tarranto alone enough for us to turn into flag contenders? Probably need Hopper too (not a bad thing) he can play. He's been squeezed out by Coniglio. I don't see much of tne Pies so I don't know about deGooey. But we have to clear out Cotch, Jack R and try to get some interest in Dusty,, Graham, Broad, Kmac types.

If we are stuck with Dusty and his salary I can't see getting a flag list. Do all of the above with freed up Dusty money in 2 years and trade hard then.

 

[SleepingGiant]

Exactly.

We've been picking big bodied inside mids for years and haven't got it right yet. Ross looks like a decent B grade mid. That's OK, but you really want some genuine talent in there to win premierships.

It's one of those things, you pick for talent. And by pick 20 the sure A graders are gone. Sometimes you get Shai Bolton, sometimes you get a decent B grader, sometimes you get flashes, but nothing serious, sometimes you get nothing.

The really good inside mids tend to be top 10 picks. Sort of like high end KPFs. So if we have to trade for one, then so be it.

Bullshit. The only tried and tested way is to play the probability matrix of draft picks and bottoming out for the required period to get enough volume of this picks to land a list capable of contending.

Anything other then building a young core is straw clutching.

 

[Not Important]

Bullshit. The only tried and tested way is to play the probability matrix of draft picks and bottoming out for the required period to get enough volume of this picks to land a list capable of contending.

Anything other then building a young core is straw clutching.

gws says hi!

 

[Rioli2Rioli]

RCD was a later pick and more speculative. RCD was never a proven inside mid despite the attempts of the marketing department posters on bigfooty.

I think there are more proven inside mids in this draft with size, I have hardly seen any vision of teh candidates yet and some will go high. Hopper simply is not good enough given he will be 26 as well next year, not worth it pick wise, not worth the salary.

No one knows what will happen in the draft yet and what machinations will still occur. We can trade up and down , go in and out so who knows what happens when more is known closer to the day

Actually he was not considered a big inside mid. He was a tall utility and no one was really sure how he would fit. It is not as if he was racking up big

I wrote he was never considered a proven inside mid

Your attempt to play with words is just making you silly and unless you go back and remove your posts will then look stupid for doubling down.



So tell me how many 18 years olds are "Proven Inside Mids"


Just give it up and stop getting embarrassed even more

 

[Dr Tigris]

Bullshit. The only tried and tested way is to play the probability matrix of draft picks and bottoming out for the required period to get enough volume of this picks to land a list capable of contending.

Anything other then building a young core is straw clutching.

Chill.

The discussion was about the specifics of getting high end inside mids. Not about building a list to win premierships.

So don't bullshit me. Or at least do it politely.

Re the actual content of what you say, I don't think that bottoming out is necessary. What is necessary is having a core of high end talent, a well balanced and deep squad, a good game plan and a winning culture.

High end talent is far more likely to be top 10 picks - which is what I think you are saying you have to bottom out to get.

Balance and Depth requires good drafting and development + trading and FAs. This isn't really about low picks, it's about doing the whole process well over a length of time.

Premierships are almost always won by mature teams, in the core at least. How you build that core varied by team. But nowadays drafting most of the core of typical. But it is also typical for teams to trade/FA in good players for the holes in the team.

We are trying to do the whole premiership rebuild thing differently. We've drafted and developed whilst on top. We have about 1/2 of a very good team from doing that. It's about getting a few more top end players where we need them - inside mid short term and KPF medium term - and moving on from the old core to the new one.

That is damn difficult. But we are a long way to doing it. So I reckon/hope you are wrong. We don't need to be down for a few years. We are well into a really solid rebuild, so much that it looks like a refresh.

If we do that we are the first team to do it. Although the Swans do have a fairly similar philosophy and approach.

 

[Mr Magic]

Your attempt to play with words is just making you silly and unless you go back and remove your posts will then look stupid for doubling down.



So tell me how many 18 years olds are "Proven Inside Mids"


Just give it up and stop getting embarrassed even more

Your lack of comprehension and understanding is embarrassing yourself.

There is no play on words. The use of words is referred to being clear and concise. If you wish to have a imagination that strays it is not my problem

If my words are not succinct why would anybody read them? Why would I bother posting in the first place? For the fun of it?? yeah right!!

 

[_RT_]

Exactly.

We've been picking big bodied inside mids for years and haven't got it right yet. Ross looks like a decent B grade mid. That's OK, but you really want some genuine talent in there to win premierships.

It's one of those things, you pick for talent. And by pick 20 the sure A graders are gone. Sometimes you get Shai Bolton, sometimes you get a decent B grader, sometimes you get flashes, but nothing serious, sometimes you get nothing.

The really good inside mids tend to be top 10 picks. Sort of like high end KPFs. So if we have to trade for one, then so be it.

Rory Laird was pick 86
Lachie Neale was pick 56
Touk Miller was pick 29
Zac Merrett was pick 26
George Hewett was pick 32
Ben Keays was pick 7 in the rookie draft
Luke Parker was pick 40
Tim Kelly was pick 24
Josh Dunkley was pick 25
Jarryd Lyons was pick 61
Jack Crisp was pick 86
Jack Steele was pick 24

That's a dozen midfielders taken outside the first round that I'd rate as A grade midfielders. You don't need to have access to top 10 picks to find A grade midfielders, a lot of it relies on your recruiters as well as a bit of luck with how a player develops once in the system. I mean our own Lambert was overlooked in many drafts and when finally given his chance was a very good midfielder who flourished in the right system that used his strengths to great effect.

 

[Dr Tigris]

Rory Laird was pick 86
Lachie Neale was pick 56
Touk Miller was pick 29
Zac Merrett was pick 26
George Hewett was pick 32
Ben Keays was pick 7 in the rookie draft
Luke Parker was pick 40
Tim Kelly was pick 24
Josh Dunkley was pick 25
Jarryd Lyons was pick 61
Jack Crisp was pick 86
Jack Steele was pick 24

That's a dozen midfielders taken outside the first round that I'd rate as A grade midfielders. You don't need to have access to top 10 picks to find A grade midfielders, a lot of it relies on your recruiters as well as a bit of luck with how a player develops once in the system. I mean our own Lambert was overlooked in many drafts and when finally given his chance was a very good midfielder who flourished in the right system that used his strengths to great effect.

Yes, but you are much more likely if you have that top 10 pick.

We have picked talent, but not succeeded in getting that type in our best 22. Not sure why, but they are available.

 

[_RT_]

Yes, but you are much more likely if you have that top 10 pick.

We have picked talent, but not succeeded in getting that type in our best 22. Not sure why, but they are available.

Unfortunately for us the arrival on Covid has had a big impact on the development of our young midfielders. Basically lost 2 seasons of games that should have seen them come on in the way we all expected. Ross RCD Dow & Martyn should all be thereabouts or in the 22 already, but they aren't and the main reason they aren't IMO is because of that interruption.

 

[TigerImposter]

Again go to the draft and we may end up with another RCD

Corey Ellis, Reece Conca, Ben Lennon and whoever we messed up on. It's a gamble and i would prefer on a BBMF ready made. Hopper is better than B+ and being severely under rated. If he came onto our list next year he would suddenly become elite overnight.

 

[TigerImposter]

Rory Laird was pick 86
Lachie Neale was pick 56
Touk Miller was pick 29
Zac Merrett was pick 26
George Hewett was pick 32
Ben Keays was pick 7 in the rookie draft
Luke Parker was pick 40
Tim Kelly was pick 24
Josh Dunkley was pick 25
Jarryd Lyons was pick 61
Jack Crisp was pick 86
Jack Steele was pick 24

That's a dozen midfielders taken outside the first round that I'd rate as A grade midfielders. You don't need to have access to top 10 picks to find A grade midfielders, a lot of it relies on your recruiters as well as a bit of luck with how a player develops once in the system. I mean our own Lambert was overlooked in many drafts and when finally given his chance was a very good midfielder who flourished in the right system that used his strengths to great effect.

That's a bit stretched RT as how many drafts did those guys come out of. There's at least two good ones on average in the top 10 every year and if you're picking beyond that then it's a lottery.

 

[TigerImposter]

Unfortunately for us the arrival on Covid has had a big impact on the development of our young midfielders. Basically lost 2 seasons of games that should have seen them come on in the way we all expected. Ross RCD Dow & Martyn should all be thereabouts or in the 22 already, but they aren't and the main reason they aren't IMO is because of that interruption.

So 17 other clubs weren't affected by COVID. That's a nonsense on stilts excuse as many players of their age bracket and younger have come on.

 

[db26]

Corey Ellis, Reece Conca, Ben Lennon and whoever we messed up on. It's a gamble and i would prefer on a BBMF ready made. Hopper is better than B+ and being severely under rated. If he came onto our list next year he would suddenly become elite overnight.

Valid points because of those names , but we build our premiership list from the draft and then added the cherry's on the cake. Our first round and roos second rounder will lose for those gws players to much for me 2 picks in top 20 add to our draft haul for me to the crop now.

 

[TigerImposter]

Valid points because of those names , but we build our premiership list from the draft and then added the cherry's on the cake. Our first round and roos second rounder will lose for those gws players to much for me 2 picks in top 20 add to our draft haul for me to the crop now.

I agree, but we need to bottom out completely to a basket case for that to happen and still choose wisely. My concern is the FD are not thinking along those lines .

 

[Mr Magic]

What is happening with Dusty?

If he sticks fine.

If he goes, it changes everything

I am not sure the Swans is a good fit for Dusty. I don't think Buddy was ever a good fit for the Swans no matter what the marketers say. It is not as rosy as some make it out to be at times from what I hear at times.

I not sure Buddy and the Swans where ever on the same page and seeing todays article about him going to Brisbane is quite comical and typical

Lockett at the Swans seemed to work better but it seems Swans just target profiles and get AFL HQ to support them

 

[_RT_]

So 17 other clubs weren't affected by COVID. That's a nonsense on stilts excuse as many players of their age bracket and younger have come on.

Who taken around the same pick as RCD in the 2018 draft has come on? Clark McHenry Sturt Duursma Stocker Smith O'Halloran McLennan Hill Rowbottom are the 10 players taken either side of RCD and Clark & Rowbottom would be the only 2 playing regularly at AFL level this year.

Dow in 2019 draft same applies with Weightman & Sam De Koning the only 2 taken 5-6 spots either side of Dow that have come on.

Sure there have some kids taken in the 2018-2019 drafts that have flourished but most of them would be the top end kids or those who were given regular senior footy as their teams rebuilt, while our kids were trying to break into premiership sides.

It's only now that we've started transitioning to the next generation that we've started to see kids coming on and surprise surprise buts it's been when they've been able to play regular games

 

[TigerImposter]

Who taken around the same pick as RCD in the 2018 draft has come on? Clark McHenry Sturt Duursma Stocker Smith O'Halloran McLennan Hill Rowbottom are the 10 players taken either side of RCD and Clark & Rowbottom would be the only 2 playing regularly at AFL level this year.

Dow in 2019 draft same applies with Weightman & Sam De Koning the only 2 taken 5-6 spots either side of Dow that have come on.

Sure there have some kids taken in the 2018-2019 drafts that have flourished but most of them would be the top end kids or those who were given regular senior footy as their teams rebuilt, while our kids were trying to break into premiership sides.

It's only now that we've started transitioning to the next generation that we've started to see kids coming on and surprise surprise buts it's been when they've been able to play regular games

IT'S not covid related and just a reality that they weren't good enough. I could run through drafts of previous years and find all the blokes that didn't make it. The reality is if what your saying is true then all those players in those two drafts and possibly the next two after will all be under developed. Never read such a nonsense of an excuse in my life.

 

[_RT_]

IT'S not covid related and just a reality that they weren't good enough. I could run through drafts of previous years and find all the blokes that didn't make it. The reality is if what your saying is true then all those players in those two drafts and possibly the next two after will all be under developed. Never read such a nonsense of an excuse in my life.

So you've got a bunch of young footballers who played little or no football for near 2 years because if Covid, but it never hampered their development.

Surely you can see how not playing games would impact a players ability to develop their game and its not just players at our club either. There are kids at every club that will have been impacted in different ways. The ones that will survive are the ones who knuckle down and continue to push themselves, while those who don't will get cast aside.

 

[TigerImposter]

So you've got a bunch of young footballers who played little or no football for near 2 years because if Covid, but it never hampered their development.

Surely you can see how not playing games would impact a players ability to develop their game and its not just players at our club either. There are kids at every club that will have been impacted in different ways. The ones that will survive are the ones who knuckle down and continue to push themselves, while those who don't will get cast aside.

So it should have affected the whole of the AFL evenly. So it was no disadvantage to the competition. Survivors are the ones with the talent and footy nous and yes hard workers, but RCD, Martyn and co were rubbish and never going to make it no matter how hard they pushed themselves. Covid is irrelevant and just a lame excuse.

 

[_RT_]

So it should have affected the whole of the AFL evenly. So it was no disadvantage to the competition. Survivors are the ones with the talent and footy nous and yes hard workers, but RCD, Martyn and co were rubbish and never going to make it no matter how hard they pushed themselves. Covid is irrelevant and just a lame excuse.

Why should Covid have affected the whole league evenly? Not every club was in the same position. Some clubs were beginning rebuilds, others were in the middle of rebuilds where putting games into their young kids was the priority.

While we were in the middle of premiership fights where our kids development was primarily going to happen through playing in the VFL.

So heading into the 2020 season our plan would have been to have the likes of Ross RCD Dow and Martyn playing majority of the games in the midfield to develop their craft and then when the season got cancelled all they could do was train the the hub and be involves in scratch matches where they were often mixed in with players from other teams, but according to you it hasn't had any impact on their development.

 

[TigerImposter]

Why should Covid have affected the whole league evenly? Not every club was in the same position. Some clubs were beginning rebuilds, others were in the middle of rebuilds where putting games into their young kids was the priority.

While we were in the middle of premiership fights where our kids development was primarily going to happen through playing in the VFL.

So heading into the 2020 season our plan would have been to have the likes of Ross RCD Dow and Martyn playing majority of the games in the midfield to develop their craft and then when the season got cancelled all they could do was train the the hub and be involves in scratch matches where they were often mixed in with players from other teams, but according to you it hasn't had any impact on their development.

Aaaaahhhh bc they picked players in the draft at the same time. We came off a premiership if I recall. Just hogwash RT. So it affected everyone equally irrelevant to where they were in their developmental stage.

 

[_RT_]

Aaaaahhhh bc they picked players in the draft at the same time. We came off a premiership if I recall. Just hogwash RT. So it affected everyone equally irrelevant to where they were in their developmental stage.

Through the 20/21 seasons our VFL side played 10 games total and the AFL side 43 games with 21 played in the 2020 premiership year and 22 in 2021.

RCD played in 14 games of 43 games (0 in 2020)
Dow played in 12 of 43 games (0 in 2020)
Martyn played in 13 of 43 games (0 in 2020)
Ross played in 20 of 43 games (7 in 2020)
But according to you Covid has had no impact on their development

As for the other teams as I said a lot of the players who haven't be as impacted in their development are those that went to sides that were embarking on or already in a rebuild so playing their kids was a priority while we were embarking on a fight for a 3 flag in 4 years in 2020 and then a 3rd flag in a row in 2021, which meant that putting games into the kids wasn't the priority.

 

[TigerImposter]

Through the 20/21 seasons our VFL side played 10 games total and the AFL side 43 games with 21 played in the 2020 premiership year and 22 in 2021.

RCD played in 14 games of 43 games (0 in 2020)
Dow played in 12 of 43 games (0 in 2020)
Martyn played in 13 of 43 games (0 in 2020)
Ross played in 20 of 43 games (7 in 2020)
But according to you Covid has had no impact on their development

As for the other teams as I said a lot of the players who haven't be as impacted in their development are those that went to sides that were embarking on or already in a rebuild so playing their kids was a priority while we were embarking on a fight for a 3 flag in 4 years in 2020 and then a 3rd flag in a row in 2021, which meant that putting games into the kids wasn't the priority.

YES and Sonsie has played 3 games in his first season. So what's your point as they've played in a successful club which is hard to break into. Geelong and Swan players have similar issues. Martyn and RCD are sub vfl standard so why would they get a game in the seniors? Dow and Ross are developing nicely and what i expect from 3-4 year players that have had to wait for a crack bc senior players are dropping off. COVID has nothing to do with their stunted development as you're either good enough or not up to it.
Even Shai BOLTON only 9games in his first 2 seasons. bc our side was so strong with depth.

Shai Bolton of the Fremantle Dockers Career AFL Stats

Shai Bolton of Fremantle Dockers career AFL statistics

www.footywire.com

 

[tunksy]

The window is shutting. The list is all one year older. If they really want a flag next year retire delist or trade. Graham, Macintosh, Broad, Jack r, cotch, Edwards, Grimes, RCD, Ross, Dow. Anyone who wont be in the best 22. Bring in 3 gun mids and go for flag glory.

and have absolutely zero depth