Recruiting Zones

[PRDPower]

I know this is slightly off topic, but i feel the need to express this thought somewhere. And with the 'go home' factor playing a major part in this discussion, it is as good a place as anywhere.

Feel free to abuse me for raising this in the wrong place


As a lot of people have said, Melbourne (for SA kids) seems to be seen as a move up in the world and many have no desire to move back home. For Melbourne kids drafted to SA (and other states) there is constant media attention (see Dangerfield on Before the Game and Bernie Vince on the Footy Show) on the fact the move home is an option.

So, i suggest the introduction of a new 'Preparatory Round' of the draft. This would adopt a somewhat zonal form.

One way to do it would be to reintroduce zonal regions for each club, from which they can 'reserve' one player before each years draft. For example, Victorian teams would be allotted regions similar to TAC Cup teams, whilst the SA teams - for example - would adopt the SANFL teams that they are already aligned with for Father Son.

The other way would be to purely limit it by state. For example: If Melbourne were to finish last out of the 10 Victorian Clubs, they would get the first pick of the Victorian players. If Port were to finish lower than Adelaide, they would get the first pick of the SA players.

Personally i prefer the first option, as it encourages a greater interest from AFL clubs in the development of junior and grassroots footy.

To prove how this would change things (using the first option), for 2010 the Crows would have got Sam Day and the Power Jared Polec - before the Suns could get their hands on them.

I know there are likely to be a lot of flaws in this theory, but i feel it has legs in preventing the 'go back to melbourne and be a star' factor.

I can't create new threads (Cause i'm a shy little newbie ) but if someone feels this is in the wrong place and worthy of discussion, feel free to steal my idea and start up a new thread

 

[Portia]

Re: Jackson Trengove - The future?

Its been discussed before and is basically the opposite of the equalisation measures that the AFL are behind, which are the only thing that will enable the AFL to develop teams in `emerging' markets (eg. NSW/QLD).

It will have ill-effects for Port too, if you think about it. How do you get a quality key position forward when the entire first round is out of the drafting pool, and SA so rarely has a highly rated KPP?

And of course, you then get the issue with the AFL providing such a large amount of funding to Victorian junior development and **** all to SA, which the SANFL will be happy to continue because they want control. I don't think there's any doubt that the TAC is the best resourced junior competition in Australia, so wouldn't that be nice for the Vic clubs?

The only things I can think of that could help protect from `go home' without completely changing the current system are a rigidly enforced salary cap, including either a cap on, or subsidy for, player off-field media earnings, and the removal of the pre-season draft as a mechanism to force unfair trades.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Re: Jackson Trengove - The future?

Also you'd have all kinds of dodgy dealings with gun kids being paid under the table to move to a different recruiting zone.

I don't think this kinda thing would work for us.

 

[Portology]

Re: Jackson Trengove - The future?

Also you'd have all kinds of dodgy dealings with gun kids being paid under the table to move to a different recruiting zone.

I don't think this kinda thing would work for us.

Yeah I used to like the idea of having a "zone selection" in addition to the draft-and-cap system, but you're right, it's dead.

The drain of talent wouldn't even need "dodgy dealings", it would be the kid's parents being paid to move via employment offers and other plausibly deniable subsidies (eg scholarship from a private school with money "laundered" via donations from arms length "old boy" networks). Just because some Lygon St business networking/social club proclaims its love of Carlton doesn't mean their donation to school XYZ that funds a scholarship for interstate kids to come to Melbourne is financially connected to Carlton FC in any way at all. The fact that the kids happen to play footy is nothing at all to do with the AFL at that point.

If Centrals can get around a zoning system that has salary caps, imagine what an Essendon or Carlton might do... oh wait...

 

[Portia]

Re: Jackson Trengove - The future?

In reality, the Go Home factor is a bunch of bullshit in 90% of instances. Its just that `go home' is a socially acceptable reason for a player to change clubs for more money and off-field opportunities.

 

[Waspy79]

Re: How did Port Adelaide lose its soul?

I like the idea of one pick in the draft being a compulsory zone selection - possibly round 2. It's likely to keep the two most important parties of the league happy - the player will stay in his home state - and the fan will get at least one player on its list each season that it can identify with. I think being able to identify with the club's players is a key factor in maintaining interest and support from the fans. Currently Port fails in that area - our youth is primarily Victorian born and bred. Sure the zone selection may not always work in your club's favour as you may take a player ahead of when he was forecast to go, but this would even out over the years, and I think the positives outweigh the negatives. It wont happen though.

 

[Forzaport]

Re: How did Port Adelaide lose its soul?

I like the idea of one pick in the draft being a compulsory zone selection - possibly round 2. It's likely to keep the two most important parties of the league happy - the player will stay in his home state - and the fan will get at least one player on its list each season that it can identify with. I think being able to identify with the club's players is a key factor in maintaining interest and support from the fans. Currently Port fails in that area - our youth is primarily Victorian born and bred. Sure the zone selection may not always work in your club's favour as you may take a player ahead of when he was forecast to go, but this would even out over the years, and I think the positives outweigh the negatives. It wont happen though.

Maybe every club should be entitled to one pre-draft zone selection? Imagine the shit storm that would produce!

 

[powermacs]

Re: How did Port Adelaide lose its soul?

Maybe every club should be entitled to one pre-draft zone selection? Imagine the shit storm that would produce!

Wouldn't work, collingwood would just relocate talented juniors to their zone when they are 14.

As for that fool that's posting on here how can an opposition supporter be so negative toward the club, insult port supporters on the port board and get away with it??

 

[edgie]

Re: How did Port Adelaide lose its soul?

Wouldn't work, collingwood would just relocate talented juniors to their zone when they are 14.

Just make it so the players and family have lived in the state for 10 or so years. Anyone recently relocated is open season.

 

[Ebert80]

Re: Jackson Trengove - The future?

if this was the u.s and he left a club due to family reasons at his age he would never get any respect. Either start talking about a deal or pissoff.. I hate this putting off talks shit. He could atleast say " we are working out something" if his holding out for a bigger pay.. He doesnt deserve it yet. Same with Carlile who to me doesnt even look like he wants to be there during matchday..

Australia isn't the US though. Unfortunately the VFL 25 years ago thought they'd copy US sport and bring in the draft, when some type of zoning would have been much better.

 

[Portology]

Re: Jackson Trengove - The future?

Australia isn't the US though. Unfortunately the VFL 25 years ago thought they'd copy US sport and bring in the draft, when some type of zoning would have been much better.

Better for who ? Zoning would require us to be a pseudo-state-team.

For families living in metro Melbourne among eight zones, sometimes in two zones at once, it would result in ridiculous situations.

Ease of tampering has been discussed elsewhere, someone suggested a "10 year residency rule". Zoning alone may pass legal challenge, but I'm not sure a for-profit entity will get away with imposing rules on which side of the road a 9 yr Melbourne old kid can earn a living in 10 yrs time. F/S picks have the RIGHT to opt out (restraint of trade?). Zoning has a role as a medium term strategy for game development in NSW & QLD. Nowhere else. It's a national competition, not a suburban semi-amateur competition.

Anyway I'm $%&*ing embarrassed it comes up always in context of whining about a player retention issue. Do Vics moan about it like we do ?

Would zoning fix the dysfunctional AFL development path provided by default by the SANFL clubs - with all their other priorities in the way ? Given zoning, Trengove wouldn't be here at all. Which AFL standard KPD might we have had struggling in SANFL reserves the past 10 years ? Schoenmaker ? Lake ?

 

[PAFCsince1870]

Re: Jackson Trengove - The future?

Yea there is no way zoning would work in the modern competition, especially with the expansion into states like Queensland and New South Wales.

IMO, Port just have to start taking some local talent in the next few drafts instead of taking Vic boys. The WA teams seem to prefer to draft this way and rarely is there speculation about any of their players being "homesick".

 

[FishingRick04]

Re: Jackson Trengove - The future?

How is the SANFL to blame for this Portology? I dont get

 

[Portology]

Re: How did Port Adelaide lose its soul?

Just make it so the players and family have lived in the state for 10 or so years. Anyone recently relocated is open season.

F/S picks have the right to opt out. No lawyer but I'm guessing restraint of trade law probably requires it. I reckon you couldn't "force" a kid to a club in any way outside an open and equal drafting process.

How does "in the state" work with 8 metro Melbourne zones or did you want those clubs just to cherry pick the top 8 Vic kids first ? Families move within cities so for Melbourne based kids you either end up biasing it towards all Vic clubs by making all of Victoria a "Vic" zone or against them all by drawing ridiculously many lines down the middle of a Melbourne map.

Say you go the "many lines" route, lets stay in Melbourne. Some parents move, and regularly. Why should their kids miss out ? Some live between two homes 50/50 well into their teens, who gets to choose ? Can't do it by (say) mapping back from school enrollment zones since many go to private schools now. Toss a coin ?

Zones are just unworkable and un-enforcable in a professional game. And at first contract renewal, you're into normal workings of a market anyway. Four of the premierships 2001-2005 suggest salary cap allowances work well for fixing homesickness, don't need overly complex zones for that at all.

 

[Portology]

Re: Jackson Trengove - The future?

How is the SANFL to blame for this Portology? I dont get

Not for the Trengove situation - absolutely not.

The SANFL are guilty of many other things though, they proudly state a clubs' primary aim is to win SANFL flags, not to produce AFL quality talent. So "picking local" is an issue of quantity and quality. And also there is only ever room for one pseudo-state-team.

I was responding to this reflex "gee we ought to grow our own and zone select or just draft local" response that happens a lot whenever there is a question about a kid re-signing.

No matter whether we draft or "zone select" they still have to grow up through the SANFL system. Players leave: homesickness, the dollar, club facilities and whether they think they are getting a decent development opportunity. Only one of those issues is fixed by zones or "picking local".

 

[PAFCsince1870]

Sorry mate but taking out the GC/GWS anomaly the vast majority of quality players leave a club to go home.

Name me some players who left their home state to go elsewhere on their own accord. Shaun Burgoyne was one. I'm struggling to think of many others that didn't involve GC.

There is little proof that picking local wouldn't work. The fact is besides Hartlett we've rarely gone local with our early picks since the days of the Cornes brothers and Shaun Burgoyne.

 

[Portia]

Re: Jackson Trengove - The future?

Anyway I'm $%&*ing embarrassed it comes up always in context of whining about a player retention issue. Do Vics moan about it like we do ?

They did when they were losing decent players to SA clubs, but that stopped happening ages ago.

For similar whingeing, you should also check any thread about Tom Scully going to GWS.

 

[tribey]

Re: Jackson Trengove - The future?

Anyway I'm $%&*ing embarrassed it comes up always in context of whining about a player retention issue. Do Vics moan about it like we do ?

Essendon's official website - their indie one, not the BigPond template - still erroneously bleats they got zero compensation for Wanganeen.

 

[Portia]

There is little proof that picking local wouldn't work.

OK, so here's a challenge.

Put together a FF/CHF/CHB/FB of SA players that Port could've drafted in the past 10 years, keeping in mind that if the Crows have an earlier pick they would pick that player. The group need to be capable of being integral to a premiership side.

I'll be nice and say you only need to find 3 of the 4. Good luck!

 

[edgie]

I'm not thinking deeply about any of this, but I'll suggest some more ideas for you to deconstruct.

Have it seperate to the draft, or in an alocated round of the draft. Keep the first round for what it is, then a second round for zone only selections.

And you're acting as if Melbourne is the only place in Victoria that produces footballers. I can already think of Hawthorn to get Tasmania and North to get Ballarat, as well as city zones. Hey, Geelong can get Geelong! There's an idea!

 

[Waspy79]

Modern premierships are built on strong midfields.

Regardless, here is a list of the first two south aussie players taken in the last 10 drafts, and in brackets the first pick used by both SA clubs in that draft.

2001
Jarrad Wright (who? - pick 35) (Brent Reilly)
Brian Lake (pick 71) (Barry Brooks)

2002
Andrew Mackie (pick 7) (Steven Salopek pick 6)
Jay Schulz (pick 12) (Luke Jericho pick 32)

2003
Adam Cooney (pick 1) (Fergus Watts pick 14)
Beau Waters (pick 11) (Troy Chaplin pick 15)

2004
Ryan Griffen (pick 3) (John Meeson pick 8)
Jordan Russell (pick 9) (Adam Thomson pick 11)

2005
Shannon Hurn (pick 13) (Richard Douglas pick 16)
Richard Douglas (pick 16) (Nick Lower pick 30)

2006
Bryce Gibbs (pick 1) (Travis Boak pick 5)
James Sellar (pick 14 LOL) (James Sellar pick 14 LOL)

2007
Brad Ebert (pick 13) (Patrick Dangerfield pick 10)
Levi Greenwood (pick 32) (Matthew Lobbe pick 16)

2008
Hamish Hartlett (pick 4) (Hamish Hartlett pick 4)
Phil Davis (pick 10) (Phil Davis pick 10)

2009
Jack Trengove (pick 2) (John Butcher pick 8)
Christian Howard (pick 15) (Daniel Talia pick 13)

2010
Sam Day (pick 3) (Brodie Smith pick 14)
Jared Polec (pick 5) (Ben Jacobs pick 16)

Would you prefer have:

Brian Lake
Andrew Mackie
Beau Waters
Jordan Russell
Richard Douglas
Bryce Gibbs
Levi Greenwood
Jack Trengove
Jared Polec

OR

Barry Brooks
Steven Salopek
Troy Chaplin
Adam Thomson
Nick Lower
Travis Boak
Matthew Lobbe
John Butcher
Ben Jacobs

I know which list I would take.

Obviously this is not a perfect analysis but if we were compelled to draft locally and had the first shot at available talent we would be in a far stronger position now than we are.

 

[Portology]

I'm not thinking deeply about any of this, but I'll suggest some more ideas for you to deconstruct.

Have it seperate to the draft, or in an alocated round of the draft. Keep the first round for what it is, then a second round for zone only selections.

And you're acting as if Melbourne is the only place in Victoria that produces footballers. I can already think of Hawthorn to get Tasmania and North to get Ballarat, as well as city zones. Hey, Geelong can get Geelong! There's an idea!

Interesting Tassie idea, since the alignment is based on term contracts with a state government. What happens when that changes ? When AFL politics wants it to change as sort of happened earlier this year between North and the Hawks ? When Tassie wants its own team ??

I picked on Melbourne because the very area where suburban footy comes from is the place where zoning would look and work most oddly of all.

With 3m people if zoning doesn't work in Melbourne metro it doesn't work.

If you made the second round the "enforced local pick" round, how is that very much different from it being, um, a second round ? You could call it "flanker/mid round" since it isn't going to be a speculative pick, it will be "best available" pick you dare not get wrong. Of second round quality.

How about reconstructing the Rookie draft to mean "Local" draft ? That way Freo don't get Barlow, but hey Geelong still get Pods. Given the SANFL's 2x salary cap vs VFL/WAFL we may attract some good second tier Vic kids and snap them up via the back door. Oh, wait... crap... what do the SANFL clubs exist to do again ?

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the idea of zoning; I'm old enough to have the emotional attachment to "local", but I think it's one of those things that don't go with "national". It's "heritage", we have it, the Cows don't*, and there's no going back.

* not strictly true. That first Cows generation 1991-1996 were very proud to claim they were mostly local boys. Heard them say so on 5AA...

 

[Portia]

Obviously this is not a perfect analysis but if we were compelled to draft locally and had the first shot at available talent we would be in a far stronger position now than we are.

Until we need key position players and the best ones are all gone to zone selections before the `first' round.

 

[alipate]

Instead of having each state split into zones would it work having the entire state as a zone? I think this might work better and maybe have it set up a bit like the nsw scholarships where we can pick up the kids in their mid teens and have control over their development.

 

[Quadzilla]

Instead of having each state split into zones would it work having the entire state as a zone? I think this might work better and maybe have it set up a bit like the nsw scholarships where we can pick up the kids in their mid teens and have control over their development.

... would be great for us and Crows for SA (but then you get a gun kid like Selllar at age 16 who turns out to be a spud at 20) and Weagles and Freo in WA but the Vics wont let us have a bar of this!