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Reviewing the GOAT debate.

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Aug 19, 2004
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Brilliant and well constructed argument by Raymond Lee who is a very well tennis historian, i completely agree with him :thumbsu:

Reviewing The Great Debate By Raymond Lee
http://www.tennisweek.com/news/fullstory.sps?inewsid=6636241

Over the last few years Roger Federer has been accustomed to having incredible praise heaped upon him for the amazing feats that he has performed on the tennis court. There is no doubt that he is a fantastic player. Clearly if he retired right now he would be considered at the least one of the finest players in tennis history.

Federer, as virtually all tennis aficionados know, just recently broke the official record for majors with his victory over a very game Andy Roddick in an epic 77-game showdown that was the longest Wimbledon final ever. Federer now owns 15 Grand Slam titles, he completed the career Grand Slam by winning Roland Garros last month and is the reigning US Open, Roland Garros and Wimbledon champion.

Federer's resurgence this season has prompted people to again ask the obvious and too often repeated question, "Is Roger Federer the Greatest of All Time (GOAT)?"

What is amusing to me about this question is that just earlier in the year many (a few of them the same people) were asking "Is Rafael Nadal the GOAT?" Now maybe it’s just me but I would like to think there is only one GOAT in the history of tennis and definitely not two GOATS simultaneously. At the rate GOATS are popping up I feel we should have a shepherd to tend to the flock. The emergence of a new GOAT in tennis should be a very rare occurrence, not every few months. Even potential GOATS should be very rarely seen.

This question is now being asked mainly because Federer is the all-time Grand Slam singles king. It is clearly the majors record that Federer broke but at the same time it really isn’t the record. No, this is not like the riddle of the Sphinx but it’s an attempt to explain the different conditions in which Federer, Sampras and many in the Open Era have played under as opposed to the players in the past.

Bill Tilden, at his peak in the 1920’s, was widely acclaimed as the Greatest Player of All Time. According to Bud Collins’ Tennis Encyclopedia he won 138 of 192 tournaments as an amateur and had a 907-62 match record. Bill Tilden’s match winning percentage was .936! All the top players were in the amateurs at the time so clearly Tilden was the best player in the world.

With this type of dominance you would think Tilden would have won close to thirty majors in his long career and yet Tilden won only ten majors in his career. Why is that you may ask? Simple, the man didn’t enter many majors in his best years. If you don’t enter a tournament you can’t win it.

In the 1920’s and the 1930’s boat travel was the best way to go from place to place. This could take many weeks and the player or players would not be able to practice or keep in shape. The travel lag also must have been horrible. Most players chose not to do this as spending weeks aboard a boat could wreck their entire year on the tournament circuit.

It’s not unreasonable to think that if Tilden played all of the majors in the 1920’s, assuming he had the airplane travel we have today that he would have won at least 20 majors out of 40 entered.

Later the Professional Tournaments were formed and many players like Tilden chose to turn pro in order to make a living at the sport they loved. The primary problem with this was that once a player committed the unpardonable sin of turning pro, they were banned from playing the majors. And if you can’t play the major tournaments, you’re not going to win the major tournaments.

In 1937 Don Budge won the last two majors of the year and in 1938, the next year he chose to travel by boat to go to all four majors in an attempt to win the Grand Slam. Budge succeeded, sweeping all four majors in the same season to give rise to the term "Grand Slam" and extend his streak to six straight majors.

Budge decided to turn pro to compete and make a living on the professional tour and never played a major again. To be fair, I’m not sure if Budge would have won six majors in a row if all the top pros like Ellsworth Vines, Hans Nusslein and Fred Perry were allowed to play the majors but I think you get the point. Budge, like many following him and some before him never had a chance to break the majors record because once he turned pro he wasn’t allowed to enter the majors.

The record for majors is 15 currently (I expect Federer to probably add to that total in the future) but it really should have been higher if Open tennis existed earlier and if the transportation was better in the past. So given the same conditions over tennis history I would tend to think the record should have been in the mid-twenties. I was not surprised at all when a great player like Federer broke Pete Sampras’ majors record so quickly. I felt at the time Sampras’ record of 14 was very very vulnerable.

I think Sampras was and still is a fabulous player but Pete won his 14 majors in 52 attempts. It’s a very good record but all he had to do was break Roy Emerson record of 12 at the time. What are the odds that a player as great as Sampras isn’t going to win more than 12 tournaments out of 52 attempts? The law of numbers clearly favors the Great Pete Sampras here. It was wonderful that he did it but it was hardly a superhuman achievement given his 52 entries into major tournaments.

Let’s look at this from another perspective. Margaret Court started playing in the 1950’s and continued into the 1970’s and won 24 majors out of I believe 48 attempts, an excellent percentage of fifty percent. She played all the top players whether she was an amateur or a professional and still holds the majors record to this day, men or women. In 1970 Court won the first Open Grand Slam for women. Court, unlike great players like Pancho Gonzalez, Ken Rosewall, Lew Hoad and Rod Laver was never banned from playing the majors. I’m sure if she was banned from playing the majors during her best years that her record would be diminished in the eyes of many, yet Court would have been every bit as magnificent a player but many wouldn’t know it when they looked at her record..

Yet this very thing happened to great players like Don Budge, Jack Kramer, Pancho Gonzalez, Ken Rosewall and Rod Laver. They weren’t allowed to play the majors and played tennis in the obscurity of the old great pro tours. In the old pro tours there was tremendous competition, awesome players and yet very few knew they were playing. Gonzalez, Rosewall and Laver were all at their peaks as tennis players when they played in the old pro tours and when Open tennis started in 1968, all of them were no longer in their physical primes, despite the fact Laver won the Open Grand Slam in 1969.

Steffi Graf only played in the Open Era and won 22 majors in 54 attempts plus a Grand Slam in 1988. Graf’s winning percentage for majors won and majors entered is an excellent .407. Like Court and many top players, Graf was able to play in every major during a great portion of her career. Many consider Graf to be the true major tournament record holder because Court won double digits in Australian Championships that had weaker fields.

Actually Federer’s style is quite similar to Graf’s. Both have super forehands (both Graf’s and Federer’s forehands have been called the best in tennis history) and only good one handed backhands. Both cover the court very well and are extremely smooth movers. Graf and Federer have the ability to serve their way out of danger with excellent serves. They both play it relatively safe generally off the backhand, with Federer driving the ball a little more while Graf usually plays a heavy slice. Both are very content to rally from the baseline, waiting for the opportunity to hit a forehand winner.

The importance of the major tournaments tends to differ over certain periods of time. During a good portion of the 1970’s and early 1980’s, the Australian Open, which is traditionally a major, did not draw the all of the top players as majors do today. It was played toward the end of the year which is the holidays for many players and because of this many of the players did not want to enter. The Australian lost much of its importance during this period of time.

Tournaments including the year-end Masters, the WCT championships were considered clearly more important than the Australian Open. So during the 1970’s and early 1980’s you had winners like Mark Edmondson, Brian Teacher, Johan Kriek (198-82), and Vitas Gerulaitis. All of these players were excellent players and perhaps they may have won even if the top players came but it is doubtful. The top players usually skipped the Australian Open to either relax or prepare for other tournaments.

Essentially in that period, there were only three majors, the French Open, Wimbledon and the US Open. Great players like John McEnroe, Bjorn Borg and Jimmy Connors would have probably added to their majors resume if they decided to play the Australian Open during this down period. Nowadays the tournament has regained its importance.

Let’s look at some of Federer’s other accomplishments and see how they fare against other greats. Federer has won 60 tournaments in (if my count is correct) 175 tournaments entered as of July 11, 2009. Roger’s tournament winning percentage is 34.29%. An excellent total and percentage but far behind the official ATP tournament record of 109 by Jimmy Connors. Connors’ approximate tournament winning percentage incidentally is 31.2%. Bjorn Borg has an approximate tournament winning percentage of 48.3% and 100 tournaments won.

Now Connors has what is the official record but record keeping in the early days of Open Tennis were to say the least a bit confusing to be nice about it. The differences in tours like the ATP, the WCT and the Bill Riordan tours and other factors made accurate records virtually impossible. Jimmy Connors has actually won far more tournaments than recorded officially. I believe it may be in the 140’s. Bill Tilden is in the 160’s and Rod Laver is at 199 tournaments victories, according to my research. Laver’s total of 199 is staggering and I can’t imagine it being broken, at least for the next few decades.

Federer currently has 15 majors but if you include the old pro majors in the 1940’s to 1960’s (they are not recognized as majors), Ken Rosewall has 23 total majors and Laver has 19. Considering there were no more then three pro majors every year as opposed to four majors a year in the Open Era, the totals of Rosewall, Laver and other pros from that time are even more impressive. Rosewall at one point won 10 majors out of 11 entered, including nine straight during his best streak. Rosewall has also won approximately 130 tournaments in his career.

Here's my conclusion: when you factor in decades of tennis history that many seem to have forgotten, then Roger Federer may or may not be the GOAT in the future. His record is staggering but to be honest if you look at his career record compared to the greats of the past, he is not a giant among ants, as many seem to make him out to be. He is one of the giants among the many other giants that have played tennis in the past. He has the majors record because the Open Era has been only around for a bit over 40 years and I think he probably will add to the record.

It’s a quirk of tennis history that the record for majors among the men isn’t in the twenties or even the thirties. Right now I will write that Federer may possibly be the GOAT in the future but nothing indicates in his career statistics that he is definitively the GOAT now. It is very debatable whether he is even the greatest of the Open Era.

Federer is about to turn 28 and he has plenty of time to add to his remarkable resume of accomplishments. Laver for example at 28 would in the future win a pro Grand Slam and an Open Grand Slam.

We have to wait and see how Federer’s career continues in the future. Right now I would venture to say that we have two potential future GOAT candidates, Federer and Nadal, because of Nadal’s youth and established record. Their rivalry, along with Murray, Djokovic and the resurgent Roddick should be something to treasure in the future.
 
****ing brilliant and non-biased article.

The comparison between the men's and women's games in history puts it all into perspective, and it's all evidenced by fact, rather than 'nadal is the best!', 'no federer is the best!'
 

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Great article. Interesting about Margaret Court though, I reckon hardly anyone (especially outside of tennis) really know how good she was. Looking at it now, she's probably one of Australia's greatest ever sports people.
 
Good article but I have two quibbles.

1. It says " the importance of the major tournaments ends to differ over certain periods of time" This is only partially true. Wimbledon and the US Open are the two oldest nd most prestigious and have mever suffered fallow periods. There has never been a time when either has not been in the top 2 events.


2. Not even the most rabid Fed fan pretends he is a "giant among ants". No one has ever suggested such a thing. I for instance ( and only as an example) regard him as a sublime player but regard McEnroe as almost as gifted and Laver as having a better overall record.
 
Number of grand slam wins is only one measure adn not necessarilly the best though for the general sporting public it is all that matters. They know Nicklaus 188 Woods 14 etc just as they know Fed 15, Sampras 14 etc

Weeks at number one is possibly a better or at lest equally good open era guide and today willl see Federer notch up week number 246, 22 behind Connors, 24 behind lendle and 40 behind Sampras. He is thousands of ranking points ahead and with the exception of the open does not have bagfulls to defend in coming months. Barring injury or illness it is impossible to imagine he won't pass both Connors and Lendl in the next 25 weeks and Pete is within sight.
 
Great article. Its difficult to compare different eras for all the reasons mentioned in the article.

The article touched on a lot of statistics but one thing which wasnt really noted is the more subjective notion of "which player had more impact on the game".

Iv been around long enough to see Fed and Sampras and not really much of the other candidates so Im not sure how Fed stacks up against others like Laver and Tilden in this regard but I can assure you Fed has had a much greater impact on the game than Sampras.

Federer has taken the game to a much higher level and brought a lot of the top 10 players up with him. He plays with a style and all-roundedness which epitomises everything that is great about tennis. He introduced the notion of the "all-court" game, being good at every skill.

Sampras was great at many existing skills in tennis like serving and volleying and had great mental toughness. But to me he did not take the game to a higher level, he was merely great at what had already been seen. Federer showed us things that hadnt been seen.

Other players that I have seen 'change the game' are McEnroe (best hands Iv ever seen and brought new strokes to the game) and Rafa (whose defensive and topspin game have changed the game).

Also... not much mention of Navratilova?
 
Great article. Its difficult to compare different eras for all the reasons mentioned in the article.

The article touched on a lot of statistics but one thing which wasnt really noted is the more subjective notion of "which player had more impact on the game".

Iv been around long enough to see Fed and Sampras and not really much of the other candidates so Im not sure how Fed stacks up against others like Laver and Tilden in this regard but I can assure you Fed has had a much greater impact on the game than Sampras.

Federer has taken the game to a much higher level and brought a lot of the top 10 players up with him. He plays with a style and all-roundedness which epitomises everything that is great about tennis. He introduced the notion of the "all-court" game, being good at every skill.

Sampras was great at many existing skills in tennis like serving and volleying and had great mental toughness. But to me he did not take the game to a higher level, he was merely great at what had already been seen. Federer showed us things that hadnt been seen.

Other players that I have seen 'change the game' are McEnroe (best hands Iv ever seen and brought new strokes to the game) and Rafa (whose defensive and topspin game have changed the game).

Also... not much mention of Navratilova?

One of the most accurate comments recently posted on this forum.

Aesthetics comes into it. I grew up partly in the UK surrounded by soccer fans of a certain generation who swore to a man that George Best was the greatest soccer player they had ever seen. Why? The impact of his game not its success.

If you had two players of the past 30 years to see I think McEnroe and Federer make the most aesthetic appeal. That's my view but i think its hard to avoid it.
 
Great article as I think federer is overrated...as is always the person who is still playing, thanks to the media. He is one of the best ever and you can say best in this era that's fine but i just think there are a few greater than him.
The main one I talk about because I just don't understand is how people easily say he is better than is laver
8 grand slams in 2 years...7 years apart! He couldn't play in any others between those 2 years so just imagine how many he would've won. surely he would've got another 8. this is why, like the article says, you cant just use the fact he now has won the most majors. Rosewall won 10 out of 11 majors at one stage

I also don't think he is the greatest because champions like Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods always step up when it matters and Federer, when there is finally some competition, doesn't. I love it when say for example today he double faults and makes lots of unforced errors and no first serves because it takes me back to when he used to crack the sh*ts always when he was playing in a time when Sampras and Agassi were at their peaks.
However he has usually still managed to win against most in losing situations in the last few years because the opponents seem to just choke eg haas, roddick of this year. There is no way federer dramatically lifted his game against them - when it counted - they just gave it away. After that he lifts and doesnt let them back in though.
Once again today his amazing serve goes away when it really matters. However, if he wouldve broken Del Potro to be say 4-4 in the 5th im sure he wouldve served many aces again and ran away with it but thankfully del potro stood up and therefore truly deserved that win.

It wont be long before everyone starts saying rafa is the greatest ever..if he stays fit which will highlight how the majority of people always favor current players more
 
To be honest I dont know whats going to happen to Rafa now. He is a great player but his game always relied so heavily on 'desire' and he didnt look his old self at the US. If his desire drops 1 or 2% then he wont get near Fed's total. His game was also very physically taxing and Im not sure how much longer his body will cope with the way he hits the ball.

Samwise I agree that the media build up Fed but no more so than Woods or Jordan. Those guys have lost some crunch battles also. Fed will still be good next year, I am very confident of that. Cant wait to see him play in Aus.

The great thing about mens tennis at the moment is that there are a really great bunch of players in the top 10. something which you couldnt say earlier on when Hewitt was No. 1. There was Hewitt and Roddick, that was about it. Now I love watching all of Fed, Djoko, Rafa, Del Potro, Murray, Tsonga, Verdasco, Davydenko. They all have different game styles and are all great players.
 
The article touched on a lot of statistics but one thing which wasnt really noted is the more subjective notion of "which player had more impact on the game".
That's a good point...the GOAT debate seems to involve a lot of talk about Grand Slams won, who played whom, division in Amateur/Open competition...but what sometimes gets lost amongst the discussion is the actual tennis ability displayed on the court.

The ability to hit different shots: serving (just look at the women's game to see how important a 2nd serve is), groundstrokes (the ability to impart different spins), volleys, drop shots, defensive ability, etc..
Strategic ability: tactics, adjusting to opponents and their styles
The mental side of the game: responding to adversity, play on crucial points

This would also be relative to respective eras since of course equipment changes and athleticism changes over time - which comes back to the "impact on the game" statement.

I mean, if were looking for the greatest player, shouldn't we think about who played the best on the court as well as their accomplishments?

Federer to me has everything a tennis player could want - the ability to do everything on the court coupled with good shot selection and a strong mentality makes him hard to beat.
Not to say that overall ability is the be all and end all. As they say in boxing "Styles make fights" and today was a good example. Del Potro may not have Federer's all-round ability but did what he does well - hit the ball hard flat, in the right areas, consistently while keeping his head in the crucial moments.

To be honest I dont know whats going to happen to Rafa now. He is a great player but his game always relied so heavily on 'desire' and he didnt look his old self at the US. If his desire drops 1 or 2% then he wont get near Fed's total. His game was also very physically taxing and Im not sure how much longer his body will cope with the way he hits the ball.

Yeah for Rafa injuries are the main concern. He was carrying an abdominal injury at the US and admitted that it affected his ability to serve...and I think his lack of free/easy points on serve was a big factor against Del Potro in the semi. To make it that far after a decent layoff with injury is still pretty damn impressive.
Yes, His game may rely heavily on desire, but that may be underselling the fact that he is a rock solid player from the baseline. I'm betting he'll be amongst the GOAT debate (and with a career grand slam) when all is said in done.
 

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..but what sometimes gets lost amongst the discussion is the actual tennis ability displayed on the court.

The ability to hit different shots: serving (just look at the women's game to see how important a 2nd serve is), groundstrokes (the ability to impart different spins), volleys, drop shots, defensive ability, etc..
Strategic ability: tactics, adjusting to opponents and their styles
The mental side of the game: responding to adversity, play on crucial points

Im a firm believer in this, particularly on the womens side. You see girls playing now who have huge amounts of power, none more so that Serena Williams. But I think Martina Hingis was a far better tennis player than any of the power hitters we have today. Hingis was the last of the real tennis players before power became a major weapon in womens tennis.

Both Williams sisters have won more slams than Hingis but I still think as a player, Hingis was more gifted.
 
Im a firm believer in this, particularly on the womens side. You see girls playing now who have huge amounts of power, none more so that Serena Williams. But I think Martina Hingis was a far better tennis player than any of the power hitters we have today. Hingis was the last of the real tennis players before power became a major weapon in womens tennis.

Both Williams sisters have won more slams than Hingis but I still think as a player, Hingis was more gifted.

Word. I was a huge Hingis fan, and I really lost interest in the WTA after her first retirement. She had so much finesse about her strokes and shot selection. But at the end of the day, she couldn't outhit the Williams sisters and had no second serve.
 
Also a big Hingis fan. Used to love watching her beat the Williams sisters.

In regards to her second serve, yeah it was crap but that was the whole point, she relied on other things during the rally to win her the point. Plus just about every womens player has a bad second serve, except Williams x2 and Stosur.
 
Agree 100%. Hingis is my favourite Women's player and since she has retired my interest in the WTA tour has completely dropped off. You could watch her play and actually enjoy Womens tennis as she had true skills and was an all round player. Her second serve was too slow, but the rest of her game was great to watch. To see players like Safina get to number 1 in the world is sad for the sport. It is so much about who has the biggest serve and forehand these days, there is no tennis smarts, just ball bashers. Hopefully Henin comes back so we can actually watch a bit of class again.
 
Agree 100%. Hingis is my favourite Women's player and since she has retired my interest in the WTA tour has completely dropped off. You could watch her play and actually enjoy Womens tennis as she had true skills and was an all round player. Her second serve was too slow, but the rest of her game was great to watch. To see players like Safina get to number 1 in the world is sad for the sport. It is so much about who has the biggest serve and forehand these days, there is no tennis smarts, just ball bashers. Hopefully Henin comes back so we can actually watch a bit of class again.

Even Henin is a bit of a ball basher. Womens tennis is now all about power. Hingis was the last of the truly great womens tennis players and had the power hitters not arrived so quickly and in such large numbers she would have dominated womens tennis for a lot longer than she did.
 
She would have kept dominating even when the power hitters were around. She retired at 21.

Henin wasn't a bull basher. She had great court smarts, was mentally tough and had good legitimate strokes on both sides of her body. She could also volley.
 

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