Opinion Rob Chapman

[Cap]

Chapman stated he called Demetriou the same day as he discovered the side-payment promise type deal and discussed with Trigg.

That's not the same as fessing up re the Draft tampering allegation of promising to send Tippett to club of his choice for R2 pick.

My guess is we were open about Part 1, tried to cover up Part 2 but got caught out.

If only John Reid's paper trail was as good as Essendon's recording of 1000+ injections of unknown substances

Dimwit is talking about co-operating - which AFC have clearly done and they self reported a problem

Sorry, but Chapman has the right to be annoyed, I just hope he takes it further.

 

[The Sloane Ranger]

Dimwit is talking about co-operating - which AFC have clearly done and they self reported a problem

Sorry, but Chapman has the right to be annoyed, I just hope he takes it further.

Agree

One can but only think that the AFL just keep making up legislation on the run

 

[Cap]

Agree

One can but only think that the AFL just keep making up legislation on the run

It is a bizarre system the AFL have.

At least we got a bit more insight into what was going on.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

We "self reported" three years after our CEO found out about it and, according to the Board minutes, at least 12 months after the entire club knew about it.

In reality we only self reported after Gold Coast got pissed off that Sydney were going to swoop on their man using the illegal deal and were going to tell the AFL.

We get no credit for this.

 

[Cleric]

This thread is rubbish. Chapman did nothing. He rang Vlad and said what he said wasnt true which Vlad agreed was right. He said they even had a laugh about it. Yeah, thats what I fukn want, my admin laughing about our clubs woes. When he was asked if he was going to get a retraction from Vlad his comment was to Rowie "well you can ring him and see if he will" Fukn pathetic. Chapman is piss weak and should along with Triggy stand down. His comment that the AFL respects the AFC is just laughable. If the AFL did they would never had said it in the first place. I bet Vlad wouldnt do such a thing to Collingwood.
I am starting to really hate these two clowns at our club.

 

[King Elvis]

On 2 yeah, and they've been punished for this.

But I can't imagine that the penalty for that would be the same as the penalty for systemic steroid use for instance.

I was under the impression that under the WADA code, failure to document properly is considered a similar breach to confirmed use.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

I was under the impression that under the WADA code, failure to document properly is considered a similar breach to confirmed use.

Well, I don't see how the players are running around free if that is the case.

 

[Glenno23]

I was under the impression that under the WADA code, failure to document properly is considered a similar breach to confirmed use.

I thought this too, otherwise you'd have drug cheats everywhere and no paperwork

 

[jenny61_99]

This is one of the things that cannot be proven.

There is circumstantial evidence only that they took thymosin beta 4. But again, the club can't prove that the players didn't.

This is why they got a good deal. There was a lot of smoke, not much fire, and the Bombers probably did some dodgy stuff. Proving it conclusively in a court would take a lot and without positive tests there would always be doubt.

That's why the Bombers were in a position of strength, relative to us. We had a piece of paper labelled "Cheating" set out on AFC letterhead and signed by a club official, Board minutes of the illegal clause being spoken about and Fabulous Phil's email trail spilling every bean.

Disagree Carl. They have a large amount of circumstantial evidence indicating that TB4 was given to players. Apart from invoices, texts, signed consent forms, ASADA has evidence from Charter and Alavi (compounding chemist) that TB4 is all they supplied to Dank. The dosage for the thymosin listed on the consents match exactly that which Charter gave Dank for TB4. We also have Dank and Alavi apparently trying to re-issue invoices with changed details that were back dated. ASADA does not need positive tests to issue an ADRV. They also don't need proof beyond reasonable doubt, just balance of probability. It won't go to court - it goes firstly before an ASADA appointed ADRV panel. Players respond to their charges and then recommendations are made if their names will be entered on the register. At this point the players can appeal to the AFL tribunal, but that can only be about the processes leading to the infraction notice, rather than the charge at hand. Sanctions are then recommended to the AFL. If the AFL don't follow the recommendations, WADA can step over the top and appeal it to CAS - the highest level of appeal available in sport.

 

[jenny61_99]

Well, I don't see how the players are running around free if that is the case.

Because the investigation has not concluded.

 

[spenze]

I was under the impression that under the WADA code, failure to document properly is considered a similar breach to confirmed use.

It is but the AFL can't judge or don't have the same juridicial powers that WADA have. For example, it looks like they took Thyomosin 4 or whatever it is called but for the AFL, they can't prosecute them on the basis of circumstancial evidence but WADA can and will. There was no smoking syringe as such for them to ban Armstrong but enough hearsay, paper trail and the same shit going on within his teams that he got done.

Personally King, I am not too surprised by what the AFL have dished out ( effin disappointed that at the very least Hird wasn't made to have those god damned ears of his pinned) because it was basically all they could do and wrap it u before the finals series ( in saying that the end of first round compo is shit).

The bigger deal is still to come because on the evidence of charges that ASADA have sent in the report to the AFL, Essendon players will be sent infractions and if the evidence is circumstancial enough on T 4, they'll be 2 year infractions

 

[crowded house]

This is one of the things that cannot be proven.

There is circumstantial evidence only that they took thymosin beta 4. But again, the club can't prove that the players didn't.

This is why they got a good deal. There was a lot of smoke, not much fire, and the Bombers probably did some dodgy stuff. Proving it conclusively in a court would take a lot and without positive tests there would always be doubt.

That's why the Bombers were in a position of strength, relative to us. We had a piece of paper labelled "Cheating" set out on AFC letterhead and signed by a club official, Board minutes of the illegal clause being spoken about and Fabulous Phil's email trail spilling every bean.

Considering Jobe admitted to taking AOD Essendon shouldn't have a leg to stand on. The performance enhancing aspect/legality of it doesn't need to come into it because it is a drug which isn't approved for use in australia. It is totally against the club's duty of care to its players.

 

[jenny61_99]

Considering Jobe admitted to taking AOD Essendon shouldn't have a leg to stand on. The performance enhancing aspect/legality of it doesn't need to come into it because it is a drug which isn't approved for use in australia. It is totally against the club's duty of care to its players.

It's actually not approved for human therapeutic use anywhere in the world. You can sprinkle it on your wheaties and slap it as a cream on your arse, but you can't inject it.

 

[King Elvis]

Well, I don't see how the players are running around free if that is the case.

I don't see how Jobe still has his Brownlow after admitting to taking AOD either - they're desperately trying to perform damage control: whether ASADA lets them is the question.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Because the investigation has not concluded.

These are the investigators who couldn't catch Ben Cousins.

The players have nothing to fear IMO.

 

[FR0GGY]

These are the investigators who couldn't catch Ben Cousins.

The players have nothing to fear IMO.

Not everyone can swim

 

[jenny61_99]

These are the investigators who couldn't catch Ben Cousins.

The players have nothing to fear IMO.

These are the investigators that rubbed two VFL players out for 2 years - one for just buying supplements on line - he never received them, never tested positive and he was done for intent. You forget that a lot more money and resources have been poured into ASADA since this whole mess went down in February. The Essendon INTERIM report had 400 pages and cross referenced 13,000 documents. They are crossing their i's and dotting their t's - and when you consider they have athlete's livelihood at stake, you want them to get it right.

 

[BACCS]

Forget AOD, they took Thysomisen (sp?) 4, which is banned.

That is just heresay facts, nothing that would hold up in court unless Dank came forward with any evidence of it. Well, when I say zero, there are texts and the like, but nothing that would hold up at this stage. It's why ASADA is still investigating so they can gather enough circumstantial evidence that it's put beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[Ramify]

Hmmm, So we touch ankles and take it hard after self reporting and penalising ourselves over some dodgy clause that didnt even breach the salary cap.

Essindon, deny, deny ,deny, Threaten legal action, Slutmouth the Boss and his boys no end, still accept no real responsibilty or acknowledge that any wrong doing has been commited even after apparently showing remorse for the things they havent done, continually leak blatent lies and misrepresentations about the whole scenarion to the media whilst insinuating its a hatchet job put against them by the AFL, Burn files, misplace databases and we are the ones that were un-cooperative?

Man this competition and its leaders are like a squirming worm.

 

[BACCS]

I don't see how Jobe still has his Brownlow after admitting to taking AOD either - they're desperately trying to perform damage control: whether ASADA lets them is the question.

They will never be charged on AOD, I'm fairly sure of that. The grey areas surrounding its classification are just too strong. If ASADA or WADA were concerned about the AOD issue, Watson would have been handed an infraction notice as soon as he admitted to taking. The other drug mentioned earlier is what may get them.

 

[Elder van Berlo]

I was under the impression that under the WADA code, failure to document properly is considered a similar breach to confirmed use.

No, under the AFL Anti Doping Code (which is the relevant document players can be charged under), failure to keep proper records is an offence punishable by fine (Rule 7.4). It is not an "Anti Doping Rule Violation" which gives rise to suspension (Rule 11).

Rule 11.2 - use or attempted use of a prohibited substance - is the one they will get them with, if any. Hard to prove though where no proper records are kept, except if players have made admissions.

 

[jenny61_99]

They will never be charged on AOD, I'm fairly sure of that. The grey areas surrounding its classification are just too strong. If ASADA or WADA were concerned about the AOD issue, Watson would have been handed an infraction notice as soon as he admitted to taking. The other drug mentioned earlier is what may get them.

Not convinced AOD is a dead rubber yet. Lets not forget the mysterious Mexican mix of "amino acids" that nobody knows what was in it.

 

[spenze]

These are the investigators who couldn't catch Ben Cousins.

The players have nothing to fear IMO.

Didn't the AFL sign to WADA in 2010 and before that were conducting their own independent tests?

The more I read the charter, the more I still think they are in for another big whack of pain. Might be reading it wrong on the end of a long day but parts in section 14 make me believe there could be more draft picks to be taken

http://www.aflcommunityclub.com.au/fileadmin/user_upload/Play_AFL/AFLAnti-DopingCode2010ASADA.pdf

 

[Elder van Berlo]

Disagree Carl. They have a large amount of circumstantial evidence indicating that TB4 was given to players. Apart from invoices, texts, signed consent forms, ASADA has evidence from Charter and Alavi (compounding chemist) that TB4 is all they supplied to Dank. The dosage for the thymosin listed on the consents match exactly that which Charter gave Dank for TB4. We also have Dank and Alavi apparently trying to re-issue invoices with changed details that were back dated.

All well and good. Who took the stuff?

ASADA does not need positive tests to issue an ADRV. They also don't need proof beyond reasonable doubt, just balance of probability.

Must be proved to the "comfortable satisfaction" of the Tribunal. Somewhere between the balance of probabilities and beyond reasonable doubt tests.

It won't go to court - it goes firstly before an ASADA appointed ADRV panel. Players respond to their charges and then recommendations are made if their names will be entered on the register. At this point the players can appeal to the AFL tribunal, but that can only be about the processes leading to the infraction notice, rather than the charge at hand. Sanctions are then recommended to the AFL. If the AFL don't follow the recommendations, WADA can step over the top and appeal it to CAS - the highest level of appeal available in sport.

I thought there was another level between the AFL Tribunal and CAS - AFL Appeals Board or something. Not that it really matters anyway, ultimately WADA/ASADA can appeal to CAS if aggrieved by decision below, which gives me some level of comfort that the AFL can't just cut some sweetheart deal.

 

[jenny61_99]

It's on the consent forms and players testimony. Read the 34 pages of charges against essendon. Sections at the back are clearly lists of names and substances redacted.