Robert Shirley unsure about the future

[J-Train]

I dont think that one would say that Dougie flits around the packs................
on the contrary, Dougie is more the "getting in and under and earning the hard ball, tackling, supporting your teammates with shepherds and doing the 1 percenters" type of player with an attacking side to his game as well.
Of course, he still has a way to go.

Anyway, my original comment was not aimed at a Shirley v Douglas comparison per se but more a "look to the future" type of comparison.

I was just being cheeky jonnypanther, that's why i included the face.

 

[johnnypanther]

I was just being cheeky jonnypanther, that's why i included the face.

I missed the face ....
my apologies - now just make sure your mob lose to us in round 22

 

[WALL-e]

Geez if that's not proof AFL players get paid too much then I don't know what is. He's 19? Bought his own house? Jesus wept.

His first 2 year deal would have been in the 40-50 base range with a 1,200 bonus per match.

His latest contract would be in the 50-60 range with 1,500 bonus.

That's not a massive salary, especially for what he does, I was goofing off at uni at 19.

It could be proof that our banks make it too easy to borrow money.

First home owners grant, easy lending, and what (at his age) is a nice steady income and you have the makings for sub-prime #2

Lets hope Cooky keeps his spot.

ps, Cooky will!

 

[WALL-e]

I was just being cheeky jonnypanther, that's why i included the face.

May I ask, how would you feel in round 22 if Shirley tears Judd a new rectum?

Happ? Sad? Confused?

 

[J-Train]

May I ask, how would you feel in round 22 if Shirley tears Judd a new rectum?

Happ? Sad? Confused?

I will have mixed emotions as I am a 30 (I'm 32) year supporter of the Blues, but have links to Rob so always want him to play well. I faced this exact dilemma last year when I flew down to Melbourne to watch the Blues and the Crows and Rob had a blinder against Juddy and we lost by 5 goals. I was happy for Rob but I only get to see the Blues live once or twice a year so i was hopeful of a victory.

 

[fryingpan]

His first 2 year deal would have been in the 40-50 base range with a 1,200 bonus per match.

His latest contract would be in the 50-60 range with 1,500 bonus.

That's not a massive salary, especially for what he does, I was goofing off at uni at 19.

Still think it's too much. Weekly bonuses? Their weekly bonus is more than I get a week ffs. Think it's far too much for a mediocre player. Should be on 30-35k a year. Don't get me started on the players who get paid 300k+

 

[WALL-e]

They are up from sunrise most mornings and their job goes home with them. Diet, public scrutiny etc.

They get fairly compensated for what they do.

Mediocre player on 30K?

He's living away from home, has rent, cost of living, etc.

We should up the salary as much as we can afford so we don't lose players to other sports and so we can attract other leagues players.

Yeah they get paid to play the game they love, but walking down the street unrecognised while not worrying how many colories their lunch has is a priviledge they get paid to lose.

 

[Wood_Duck]

Do you like running backwards in a race?

Nope, just a better grip on reality than some. Shirley can potentially play the role he is playing for 3 more years. Douglas will not be on the list for 3 more years. Nothing particularly against Douglas, but we have any number of younger players that will take his place, Armstrong, Cook, Petrenko, Martin, Sloane etc. They will all be ahead of him in a year or so's time. He is easily replaceable. Shirley is going to be harder to replace and quite frankly he deserves a spot on the list before some others. With both Goodwin, Mcleod and possibly Burton all at the end within the next 12 months or so, I see no issue with keeping Shirley on the list.

 

[johnnypanther]

Nope, just a better grip on reality than some. Shirley can potentially play the role he is playing for 3 more years. Douglas will not be on the list for 3 more years. Nothing particularly against Douglas, but we have any number of younger players that will take his place, Armstrong, Cook, Petrenko, Martin, Sloane etc. They will all be ahead of him in a year or so's time. He is easily replaceable. Shirley is going to be harder to replace and quite frankly he deserves a spot on the list before some others. With both Goodwin, Mcleod and possibly Burton all at the end within the next 12 months or so, I see no issue with keeping Shirley on the list.

Is that bolded part an oxymoron?

I dont particularly want to get into a slanging match bagging our own players and its all our own opinions and biases anyway.
FWIW my opinion is that Shirley is replaceable and we have a ready made one in Sloane waiting in the wings. (...and Doughty etc also cover his role).
Shirley has been and still is a good servant of the club but IMO he may be on the list of delistings this year because he is a senior player and the other senior players are ahead of him. Unfortunate......until the AFL comes up with a better plan to accommodate these types of senior &/or depth/fringe players (eg Torney/R Roertson etc etc) who are somewhat unfairly cut off lists prematurely by necessity under the current system.

As for Douglas, IMO he is good enough to be on the list another 3 years (especially given the advent of new clubs).

I just think that the Crows have been doing the right thing with their list management over the last few years and that they should continue that process and not drop the ball and allow our list to degenerate into what happened in 1997 onwards.... (ie too many middle of the road/fringe/depth/older players) therefore unfortunately someone like Shirley may need to go this year.

 

[Vader]

Ironically, if he doesn't get delisted this year then there's a very good chance of him still being around in 2011 or 2012.

The next 4 drafts are all heavily tainted, as we know. The 2009 draft was weak to start with, then lost a sizable portion of the best talent when the AFL increased the minimum draft age. The 2010-2012 drafts will be decapitated by GC & WS.

Effectively, this means that we'll be looking to minimise our exposure to all of these drafts - taking the minimum number of draftees possible. The flipside of this is that we'll be looking to delist & retire as few players as possible (subject to the minimum 3 ND selections rule).

It's hard to see any of the fab 3 going on beyond 2010 - Macca & Edwards would be celebrating their 35th birthdays mid-season and Goody's not THAT much younger. Robert Harvey and Michael Tuck are almost the only players to go on past this point in the last 20 years.

Assuming we have 1 or 2 delistings to make as well, due to players failing to make the grade (eg Gallman, Gill), then we should reach our target next year without any need to cull Shirley.

Thus, a reprieve this year buys him a minimum of 2 more seasons.

Forecasting departures at the end of 2011 becomes murkier, but you wouldn't bet on Burton (33 by the end of that season) and Doughty (32 by the end of that season) to continue past that point. It doesn't take too many players failing to make the grade and Shirley gets re-signed for 2012 as well.

I'm not suggesting that this scenario WILL happen - but it could. There is certainly no reason why a near death experience for his career this year should mean a guarranteed death 12 months later.

 

[Wood_Duck]

Is that bolded part an oxymoron?

In so many ways its not.

So you dont think that Shirley could play until hes 32. You need to get a grip.
Are you one of these blokes that would have sacked Matthew Richardson, Craig Bradley, Robert Harvey and many more the day they turned 30.

Youd rather have an ordinary 25 year old depth player on the list than a 30 year old that can still be a valuable player at AFL level?

I dont get the paranoia of having 3 or 4, 30 plus players on the list. Matt Rendell actually said last week that the reason we had been brutal with the likes of Massie and Torney in recent years was so we werent forced to retire anyone else prematurely given the weekend state of the drafts. I'd expect we will delist on performance over the next couple of years rather than age. Our older players will retire over the next few years and there will be some lesser performed young blokes that will get the chop.

 

[King Elvis]

His first 2 year deal would have been in the 40-50 base range with a 1,200 bonus per match.

His latest contract would be in the 50-60 range with 1,500 bonus.

That's not a massive salary, especially for what he does, I was goofing off at uni at 19.

It could be proof that our banks make it too easy to borrow money.

First home owners grant, easy lending, and what (at his age) is a nice steady income and you have the makings for sub-prime #2

Lets hope Cooky keeps his spot.

ps, Cooky will!

How sure are you of those figures? They seem a little light on... but I might be thinking of a first rounder; the income varies based on when you're taken in the draft, correct?

 

[Crow-mo]

From what we've been told, the player available at our 3rd pick in this draft will almost certainly not be good enough to play AFL football. You're suggesting we should select a complete spud, just so that we can move on a player who has played 150 games and finished top10 in our club B&F on several occasions?

You delist someone and draft a replacement if & when the replacement is likely to improve your team list.

I'm not happy with finishing 6-8 ever year and I don't think that the club is either. If we followed your suggestions we'd be dumping all of our experienced players and finishing 12th or 13th.


This is a load of rubbish too. Let's compare our team from R1 with R21.
OUT: Bock, Cook, Petrenko, Walker, Dangerfield
IN: Shirley, Burton, Sellar, Symes, Johncock

Of the outs... Bock would be an automatic selection if he were fit. Dangermouse has played almost every game this year, John Reid has explained the reason for him being in the SANFL this week - and has said that he'll be back in the AFL next week if everything goes according to plan.

Of the ins.. Sellar & Symes are both youngsters, as per your desire. Burton & Johncock are both automatic inclusions who were unavailable for the R1 game (injury & compassionate leave). That leaves Shirley, who effectively replaced Myke Cook. You've got rocks in your head if you think that Cook deserves this spot more than Shirley, based on form over the last 2 months.


We do need to manage the exit of our senior players so that they don't all leave at once. This much I agree with. We have 5 players aged 30+, Shirley isn't one of them and won't be until June next year. Why should the youngest member of the group be the first to depart? If anything, the odds are that he could hang around the longest, departing in 2011 or 2012 after the mad rush to retire in 2010.

He's not a 6/10 player either. He wouldn't have finished in the top 10 of our club championship for the last several years if they rated him this lowly. You don't rate him, that's clear. The club does. He's no Macca, Roo or Goody, but he's far better than you give him credit for.


You can add Mackay to the list. Dangermouse will be back for the finals as well. I'd bank on Douglas making way next week (unless injury opens up another slot for him).

That bumps our number of finals debutants up to 4 - 3 if Griffin or Moran can displace Sellar, which is by no means certain. All of a sudden your argument begins to look rather weak.

The only other youngster putting forward a case for a finals debut is Walker. But who do you drop to bring him in? I'm assuming that Douglas is already making way for Dangermouse, so that's the easy answer gone. Hentschel's coming off a 4 goal game and Burton would probably be ahead of him in the queue as well, having kicked 4 goals against both Geelong & Port - and looking dangerous against Collingwood until he got injured.

If you don't want us to finish 6-8th on the ladder, then surely we should be putting our best team out there on the park? Who drops out so that Walker can come in? Which youngster, currently playing in the SANFL, should come in to make our team stronger - and who drops out as a result?

The club are NOT treading water and they're not holding onto the scraps of 2006 either. Compare our R21 team, with the team which played in the 2006 PF.
IN: Symes, Vince, Hentschel, Knights, Tippett, Douglas, Maric, Mackay, Otten, Sellar
OUT: Torney, Bassett, Welsh, Mattner, Bode, Clarke, Perrie, Biglands, Bock, Burton

Hentschel wouldn't be an IN if he hadn't been injured on Black Sunday 2006. Bock & Burton would also be playing this week if they weren't injured.

Of the outs, only 2 players are still at the club. To them, you can also add the following players who are also no longer on our list - Gibson, Hart, Hinge, Hudson, Jericho, Massie, McGregor, Meesen, Obst, Pfeiffer, Ricciuto and Skipworth.

Of the ins, 5 are new to our list since that day. 2 more were in their first year on an AFL list at the time. I'd say we've been turning them over pretty well since that time. The players we've retained have been necessary to provide the best possible environment for our youngsters to develop.

2009 has been an excellent development year. We've debuted 6 players this year and had 3 other 2nd year players become regular members of our 22. There is very little more that I would have asked of the club this year, with every youngster who deserved a game being given a game. The only exception to this would be Taylor Walker, who seems to be stuck in no-mans land at present - full of confidence at SANFL level and too good for that competition, yet completely lacking in confidence when playing at AFL level.

There is every chance that Shirley may get delisted at the end of this year, though the AFL's decision to change the rookie rules yesterday may have just granted him a lifeline. If they DO decide to axe him, it will not be for any of the reasons you have outlined above, other than (maybe) the need to carefully manage the departure of our 6 oldest players to ensure they don't all depart simultaneously, leaving a gaping hole in our list at the worst possible time.

Nicely argued. good post

 

[WALL-e]

Yep first rounders get a higher base.

There was an article on Gibbs, and how much he received as he played all 22 and it ended up being about $110,000. But his base was $55,000, then he had 22 x $1,200 for the games, then he had performance targets of 10 games played and 20 games played which kicked in about $20,000 and a couple of other odd bonus’ etc.

I’m not sure how heavily conditioned rookie contracts can get, and I imagine the AFL has standard rookie contracts for players on where they were taken like the NBA/NFL etc have, but contracts get extremely complex at times. I hate to keep referring to the NBA, but I’ve seen a player (Troy Murphy, then with the GSW) fake an injury in the last game as he had a performance based clause in his contract, stating if he averaged 10.0 rebounds per game he would receive an additional 1 million. He had an average of 10.0 going into the last game and didn’t want to risk it, so blatantly faked an injury.

Other clauses include winning the MVP, not going to gaol, doing so many hours practice etc, they go crazy, and it looks like, through free agency etc, this is where AFL is heading.

That Gibbs situation, where his base ended up being half of his salary, shows the drive these youngsters should have to play footy games as early as possible. Though, when moneys involved the best thing for the team (like playing injured) can happen.

I think we’ll come to see some absolutely crazy contracts in the free agency coming days of the AFL. You could pick up a head case player, and have a clause in there that he not hit the piss, or a curfew, or have that he attend so many functions with the team or even submit to so many random breath test during the year.

But back on topic (sorry, I enjoy the management side of sport), I don’t think their overpaid, when I’m out and I see these poor guys who have dirty slurries hanging off them trying to get r*ped (I’m sorry to anyone who finds it offensive but it’s more truth than you’ll hear on ACA), have drunken sports nuts go up to em and either chew their ear off for hours or proceed to tell them exactly how shit they are and heros that want to hit em over the head because their life amount to nothing.

This is a 24/7 profession and isn’t just game day and 2 by trainings. 24/7/52 FOOTBALL.

 

[relapse]

From what we've been told, the player available at our 3rd pick in this draft will almost certainly not be good enough to play AFL football. You're suggesting we should select a complete spud, just so that we can move on a player who has played 150 games and finished top10 in our club B&F on several occasions?

You delist someone and draft a replacement if & when the replacement is likely to improve your team list.

I don’t think using B&F voting to validate Shirley’s status means too much, let not forget that Adelaide doesn’t use a traditional 3,2,1 system, it uses a system where players don’t have to be in the best three players to receive votes. Under Adelaide’s system if you can play nearly all 22 games and play at an acceptable level even if you aren’t close to best on ground you will still poll votes in best and fairest. No-one has ever questioned Shirley’s commitment and work ethic, rather his lack of an offensive side to his game. If it was a 3,2,1 system and he was finishing high then it obviously shows that he is regularly featuring in the best three players, but our system in an effort to open up the voting also awards votes for players who play semi-decent. Jason Torney did very well in the B&F in 2007 as well and Torney had a far better season in 07 than Shirley this year, but we cut Torney so I am not convinced at our B&F voting is an accurate tool to determine the worth of a player.

The second sentence would mean that you would never move on players . Why did we allow Jarman to retire when we drafted 2 spuds like Ben Finnin and Jacob Shuback. Jarman was worth 2 of those players. The crux of the issue is that there comes a time in a players career where the club or the player needs to pull the pin, I am sure that St Kilda would have picked a up a spud with at least one of their picks and that retaining Harvey may have offered more, but like the Kenny Rogers song “you have to know when to hold them and when to fold them”.

We also need to be conscious also of the fact that we want to secure Tippett so maybe moving someone like Shirley on and recruiting a new player will also free up some salary cap space.

'm not happy with finishing 6-8 ever year and I don't think that the club is either. If we followed your suggestions we'd be dumping all of our experienced players and finishing 12th or 13th.

I don’t see how dumping Shirley and questioning whether Macca and/or Burton should retire is dumping all the experienced players. I am not the biggest Doughty fan, but he has been in good form and deserves to be there. The club is satisfied with finishing 6-8 because we see the same senario leading upto September when we see the side being loaded up with Shirley and Burton.

This is a load of rubbish too. Let's compare our team from R1 with R21.
OUT: Bock, Cook, Petrenko, Walker, Dangerfield
IN: Shirley, Burton, Sellar, Symes, Johncock

Of the outs... Bock would be an automatic selection if he were fit. Dangermouse has played almost every game this year, John Reid has explained the reason for him being in the SANFL this week - and has said that he'll be back in the AFL next week if everything goes according to plan.

I hope Dangerfield returns for the finals. Why pull Cooke’s name out, Sloane looked okay on the weekend, the guys need work and time devoted into them to develop. Remember we are talking about going forward as a club and looking towards next year and Shirley’s spot on the list next year, I am just questioning the value in the club of keeping players in the SANFL next year if we roll out the Robert Shirley train for 22 games next year.

I have said before that you have to learn to walk before you can run and we need to start getting some players walking before we can bring them in at finals time, so the issue would apply more to next year as we have already dropped the ball and it’s too late this year because Shirley was brought back from the dead.

We do need to manage the exit of our senior players so that they don't all leave at once. This much I agree with. We have 5 players aged 30+, Shirley isn't one of them and won't be until June next year. Why should the youngest member of the group be the first to depart? If anything, the odds are that he could hang around the longest, departing in 2011 or 2012 after the mad rush to retire in 2010.

To put it simply because he is clearly the worst of our 6 mature players. Doughty, Edwards, Macca and Goodwin would all be higher rated than Shirley. If the club persists with retaining Shirley until the end of 2012 I also feel pretty confident that we will be looking for a new coach because that in itself be a sign of a much bigger problem. If our most experienced player in the squad is Robert Shirley then I would be seriously questioning the player development and future planning by the club. If we had a 32 year old Robert Shirley as our sole veteran we would be a laughing stock.

He's not a 6/10 player either. He wouldn't have finished in the top 10 of our club championship for the last several years if they rated him this lowly. You don't rate him, that's clear. The club does. He's no Macca, Roo or Goody, but he's far better than you give him credit for.

As for not agreeing that Shirley is a 6/10 I am interested where you think he sits. Lets say that Ablett is a 10/10 and someone like Scott Thompson is an 8/10, I don’t think it is unfair to Shirley to have him as a 6/10.

You can add Mackay to the list. Dangermouse will be back for the finals as well. I'd bank on Douglas making way next week (unless injury opens up another slot for him)

That bumps our number of finals debutants up to 4 - 3 if Griffin or Moran can displace Sellar, which is by no means certain. All of a sudden your argument begins to look rather weak.

David McKay and Brad Moran both played against against Collingwood last year in the elimination final,.so no my argument doesn’t look week. If Dangerfield doesn’t come back into the side for the finals and Moran or Griffin (both have played finals before) replace Sellar then as I said in my post that Otten will be the only player that will be a finals debutant this year.

The only other youngster putting forward a case for a finals debut is Walker. But who do you drop to bring him in? I'm assuming that Douglas is already making way for Dangermouse, so that's the easy answer gone. Hentschel's coming off a 4 goal game and Burton would probably be ahead of him in the queue as well, having kicked 4 goals against both Geelong & Port - and looking dangerous against Collingwood until he got injured.

If you don't want us to finish 6-8th on the ladder, then surely we should be putting our best team out there on the park? Who drops out so that Walker can come in? Which youngster, currently playing in the SANFL, should come in to make our team stronger - and who drops out as a result? .

The real issue is that our squad is a squad that at best is one that will finish 6th-8th, the question I always have though is aiming for today or aiming for tomorrow. Aiming for today will not achieve us a premiership now and I dont think it will it help us achieve a premiership tomorrow.

I don’t have a problem with Hentschel being in the side and I am loving the fact that he is playing well, if he has overcome his injury then he could still have a good career in front of him. Burton might be an option this year, but again next year though we need to move away from relying on a 31 year old forward who has come back from a knee reconstruction and look towards the future.

The club are NOT treading water and they're not holding onto the scraps of 2006 either. Compare our R21 team, with the team which played in the 2006 PF.
IN: Symes, Vince, Hentschel, Knights, Tippett, Douglas, Maric, Mackay, Otten, Sellar
OUT: Torney, Bassett, Welsh, Mattner, Bode, Clarke, Perrie, Biglands, Bock, Burton

Hentschel wouldn't be an IN if he hadn't been injured on Black Sunday 2006. Bock & Burton would also be playing this week if they weren't injured.

Of the outs, only 2 players are still at the club. To them, you can also add the following players who are also no longer on our list - Gibson, Hart, Hinge, Hudson, Jericho, Massie, McGregor, Meesen, Obst, Pfeiffer, Ricciuto and Skipworth.

Of the ins, 5 are new to our list since that day. 2 more were in their first year on an AFL list at the time. I'd say we've been turning them over pretty well since that time. The players we've retained have been necessary to provide the best possible environment for our youngsters to develop.

It’s not so much the personnel that we have left, but rather the faith that we show in personnel from that era and believing that they will lead us to success when they have continually failed since 2006 to do so. It’s about going back to the same old well in September. It’s the fact that Shirley has become a walk up start to the side after not setting the world alight in the SANFL, Burton played in the SANFL and we were told that it didn’t matter about Burton’s numbers he was only playing with the Eagles for match fitness. So we have players in the SANFL tearing it up like Phil Davis and Walker sets it on fire in the SANFL then we have Shirley and Burton that only have to play an average game to get in the side because they are Craigy’s favourites.

2009 has been an excellent development year. We've debuted 6 players this year and had 3 other 2nd year players become regular members of our 22. There is very little more that I would have asked of the club this year, with every youngster who deserved a game being given a game. The only exception to this would be Taylor Walker, who seems to be stuck in no-mans land at present - full of confidence at SANFL level and too good for that competition, yet completely lacking in confidence when playing at AFL level.

Well when you compare it to other years when we have lagged badly behind other clubs in the competition it has been better. It is something that needs to continue next year though and we need to bring in 2 to 3 new people next year as well. We have been hurt this year by the fact that the club held Walker back last year and didnt give him a taste.

 

[Drummond]

This is a load of rubbish too. Let's compare our team from R1 with R21.
OUT: Bock, Cook, Petrenko, Walker, Dangerfield
IN: Shirley, Burton, Sellar, Symes, Johncock

As usual, Craig weeding out the young talent over the course of the season. A way to ensure rebuilding is done ever so slowly...

 

[fryingpan]

As usual, Craig weeding out the young talent over the course of the season. A way to ensure rebuilding is done ever so slowly...

Do you think Cook & Petrenko deserve to be in the 22 do you?

 

[macca23]

As usual, Craig weeding out the young talent over the course of the season. A way to ensure rebuilding is done ever so slowly...

Boring ......

 

[twentydollarnote]

Its true a little bit, how shirely was left out earlier in the seaon but now is back in is bizarre. I think dangerfield and walker omissions will hurt us they are the kind of players who need to be squeezed in somewhere, pentrinko and cook probably arent ready yet and dont really add anything special we dont already have.

 

[relapse]

Its true a little bit, how shirely was left out earlier in the seaon but now is back in is bizarre. I think dangerfield and walker omissions will hurt us they are the kind of players who need to be squeezed in somewhere, pentrinko and cook probably arent ready yet and dont really add anything special we dont already have.

I seriously wouldnt be surprised to see Burton in for Douglas and to see Dangerfield playing for West. Neil Craig diagnosed it as destination disease, but I think it applies to the coaches box moreso than the team.

From what I heard Shirley came back after a stoush between Craig and Viney in the middle of the year after Craig threatened to take the midfield duties from Viney. Looks like Neil got his way.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

His first 2 year deal would have been in the 40-50 base range with a 1,200 bonus per match.

His latest contract would be in the 50-60 range with 1,500 bonus.

That's not a massive salary, especially for what he does, I was goofing off at uni at 19.

It could be proof that our banks make it too easy to borrow money.

Maybe he's been betting on South Adelaide to lose?

 

[crowman86]

No way to Pets or Cook belong in our 22 atm. Anyone that thinks so has rocks in their head. We play our best 22, don't gift games to kids, especially as of this afternoon we were still looking at a top 4 finish.

 

[johnnypanther]

In so many ways its not.

So you dont think that Shirley could play until hes 32. You need to get a grip.
Are you one of these blokes that would have sacked Matthew Richardson, Craig Bradley, Robert Harvey and many more the day they turned 30.

Youd rather have an ordinary 25 year old depth player on the list than a 30 year old that can still be a valuable player at AFL level?

I dont get the paranoia of having 3 or 4, 30 plus players on the list. Matt Rendell actually said last week that the reason we had been brutal with the likes of Massie and Torney in recent years was so we werent forced to retire anyone else prematurely given the weekend state of the drafts. I'd expect we will delist on performance over the next couple of years rather than age. Our older players will retire over the next few years and there will be some lesser performed young blokes that will get the chop.

Firstly, let me say quite emphatically that i am NOT one of those blokes who would have sacked Matty Richardson, Bradley, Harvey etc..
Furthermore, i have NO paranoia of having 3 or 4 30yo+ players on the list particularly of the calibre of McLeod, Goodwin, Burton, Edwards all 4 of whom i think should go on next year. I think also Doughty should too which makes 5!
However, i do think that 5 is enough and that Shirley does not quite come into the category and in order to continue our good list management of the last few years then he would be delisted this year - unfortunately and unfairly to him perhaps - but to quote Vader : "There is every chance that Shirley may get delisted at the end of this year, though the AFL's decision to change the rookie rules yesterday may have just granted him a lifeline. If they DO decide to axe him, it will not be for any of the reasons you have outlined above, other than (maybe) the need to carefully manage the departure of our 6 oldest players to ensure they don't all depart simultaneously, leaving a gaping hole in our list at the worst possible time."

Relapse somewhat covers my thoughts on the matter:
"I hope Dangerfield returns for the finals. Cooke... Sloane looked okay on the weekend, the guys need work and time devoted into them to develop. Remember we are talking about going forward as a club and looking towards next year and Shirley’s spot on the list next year, I am just questioning the value in the club of keeping players in the SANFL next year if we roll out the Robert Shirley train for 22 games next year.

I have said before that you have to learn to walk before you can run and we need to start getting some players walking before we can bring them in at finals time, so the issue would apply more to next year as we have already dropped the ball and it’s too late this year because Shirley was brought back from the dead.


To put it simply because he is clearly the worst of our 6 mature players. Doughty, Edwards, Macca and Goodwin would all be higher rated than Shirley. If the club persists with retaining Shirley until the end of 2012 I feel .. that in itself be a sign of a much bigger problem. If our most experienced player in the squad is Robert Shirley then I would be seriously questioning the player development and future planning by the club. If we had a 32 year old Robert Shirley as our sole veteran we would be a laughing stock.

I don’t think it is unfair to Shirley to have him as a 6/10."

As for your comment - "Youd rather have an ordinary 25 year old depth player on the list than a 30 year old that can still be a valuable player at AFL level?"
.... now i assume that you are referring to Douglas as the ordinary 25yo depth player and Shirley as the 30yo valuable player...
well my answer to that is an emphatic yes i would prefer Douglas and with a big too
and furthermore when Shirley is 30yo next year, Douglas will only be 23yo.

 

[relapse]

No way to Pets or Cook belong in our 22 atm. Anyone that thinks so has rocks in their head. We play our best 22, don't gift games to kids, especially as of this afternoon we were still looking at a top 4 finish.

Newsflash the bulldogs won last night, the top four is finalised.

If our side was good enough we would have beaten Geelong at Skilled and beaten Collingwood at home and be in the top four, we lost both of those games so we are were we deserve to be in the top 8.

 

[crowman86]

Newflash , when the team was picked we were still a chance. You want to pick the squad assuming you can correctly guess the outcome of other games?