Ross Lyon

[ST ROMNAR]

Agree with most of Big Mart's sentiments however I differ regarding developing of a team I believe this is the strength of Ross.
As FREO decline in the next few years it will show the ability or not, of Ross to develop players/team.
I have serious doubts about the game plan not evolving also the match day coaching which is very static, I feel that there is no plan B, as a game slips away Ross most often fails to adapt.
That being said I quite like Ross and wish him well.

 

[saintbill]

Aside from the recruiting of Lovett (read Lenny's book to understand how he said all the right things & then did the opposite) with a late 1st round pick, how is Lyon's list management so roundly criticised? Don't give me examples like Clarke, C.Gardiner or Jesse Smith as example either- they were picked up or traded for with very late picks.

The list management debacle of 2008-2011 sits right at the feet of John Peake & a recruiting budget as low as any in the league.

The development of players is a different story but Ross was focused on getting a flag (rightly or wrongly in hindsight).

IMO he's the best tactical coach in the league by a mile. Give him the lists that Clarkson or Hinkley have & he'd win the flag in a canter.

I'm still bitter that he left us in those circumstances....I wanted to back him to rebuild.

Can't say I agree with that. You are massively underrating Clarkson's achievements. He was effectively the mastermind by the rolling zone which bamboozled the league in 08 and pinched a flag when Geelong had a far superior list. Last year they went back to back despite losing their best player, and they did so with a completely different game plan to 08.

Additionally, on paper, many would argue Sydney have a better list last year and they also experienced a much better run than the Hawks from an injury perspective. Hawthorn pants them because they are a superior team, not because they had a better list. For that, Clarkson can take massive credit.

As for Port and Lyon, I certainly don't think that Lyon would make Port a better side. Hinkley fosters an attacking running style that fits well with that playing group. Their natural flair would be killed off to some degree by Lyon. I think this is what makes them dangerous and actually troubles Hawthorn, who they will need to beat if they want to win a flag.

Lyon was an extremely effective coach, but his value is diminishing each year in my opinion. I remember every game in 09 and the ball movement from other teams was just so stagnant, it just played right into our hands and allowed us to completely strangle them. The good teams are just so much better at moving the ball quickly now, and breaking the lines to bust open the defensive zone. Lyon is going to have to come up with some other tricks to be anywhere near Clarkson's league. I sense he might just be the stubborn type, which is going to make that very difficult.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

And Clarkson was bamboozled by Lyon's press in 2009.

Not a match day coach? Kick straight in 09 & we all know the result.

Clarkson has benefitted from being at a stable club with huge resources to develop players. He's a great coach no doubt, I rate Ross his equal despite what he did to the club that I love.

I don't believe the 'he can't develop players' to an extent. How many of our players improved dramatically from 2008 to 2010? How many fell away under Watters & we're not the same players? Lyon obviously could get the best out of blokes & correct me if I'm wrong, but IMO that is exactly what development is all about. Players being the best they can be.

 

[Freomaniac]

and your post right there highlights the problem.... neale shouldnt have played 25 games in two years. he should have played a full season in 2013. compare him to hill. hill played a full season in that grand final year in a side with much more depth and more competition for spots.

Theres a big difference between the 2 and both their situations.

Hill debuted in 2009 when the club had an ageing and crap list that finished 14th that year. He was pick 3 in that 2008 draft and he was certain to get games. Not to mention freo didn't have any decent outside running mids. His only competition for the winger spots is Mzungu, Danyle Pearce and Clancee Pearce.

Lachie Neale came in at pick 58 in the 2011 draft and he was behind the likes of Mundy, Fyfe, Barlow, Suban, Nic Lower and others. Now he is just behind the big 2 in mundy, fyfe and suban and in the 22. He played 10 games in 2-12 then 15 in 2013 and he missed a month of footy at the start of 2013 with injury. Besides inaccurate goal kicking, the other mistake freo made in the 2013 grand final was putting neale as the sub which cost us dearly.

Freo very confident on getting rance

It wont happen despite him being from WA. Buddy didn't want to join freo, why would Rance?

 

[Defacto]

Theres a big difference between the 2 and both their situations.

Hill debuted in 2009 when the club had an ageing and crap list that finished 14th that year. He was pick 3 in that 2008 draft and he was certain to get games. Not to mention freo didn't have any decent outside running mids. His only competition for the winger spots is Mzungu, Danyle Pearce and Clancee Pearce.

Lachie Neale came in at pick 58 in the 2011 draft and he was behind the likes of Mundy, Fyfe, Barlow, Suban, Nic Lower and others. Now he is just behind the big 2 in mundy, fyfe and suban and in the 22. He played 10 games in 2-12 then 15 in 2013 and he missed a month of footy at the start of 2013 with injury. Besides inaccurate goal kicking, the other mistake freo made in the 2013 grand final was putting neale as the sub which cost us dearly.



It wont happen despite him being from WA. Buddy didn't want to join freo, why would Rance?

FFS not your hill, hawthorns hill

 

[Freomaniac]

FFS not your hill, hawthorns hill

Fair enough. Still as I said, Neale was a late pick as stated and they wouldn't get instant games unless proven.

 

[Defacto]

Fair enough. Still as I said, Neale was a late pick as stated and they wouldn't get instant games unless proven.

but he was ready to go. something ross himself was on record as stating. hill was hardly ready, if you are going to compare the two, but they kept pushing him through in a side with much more depth

 

[Big Mart]

He did develop players... To fit a role.

He didn't trust/develop young players, thus didn't develop or evolve the team.... There was never a fresh element each year... Young players filled an injury void and made way as soon as an older but less talented player was available
Seriously... Dean Polo (who btw seemed a nice guy, no swipe at him)

The bizarre dropping of Armitage late 09?
The dropping of Steven 2010?

One a current leader, one a B&f watching whilst our much publicised bottom 6 made the cut??

Young players absolutely stalled under Watters... To the point where they lost confidence... Got delisted or traded.

 

[Nutsngum]

Young players absolutely stalled under Watters... To the point where they lost confidence... Got delisted or traded.

What? One of the few good things that Watters did was engage in the youth development. Unless you meant Lyon?

 

[sammm]

I

What? One of the few good things that Watters did was engage in the youth development. Unless you meant Lyon?

I Think he meant Lyon

 

[ike2112]

I think it's harsh to say young players stalled under Watters; it was more that they were already struggling and on the way out. Bear in mind majority of the young lads on the list were low picks.

I think the situation was exasperated further by Watters and the rest of the staff misjudging the list a little; they seemed to think we were still an outside chance at the 8, when in reality the bottom was about to fall out. During the season aims seemed to change, decisions on gameday contradicted earlier statements, and I think young players got games for the hell of it rather than on merit.
But overall I don't see that Watters being a bit better of a coach (or people person) would have made any difference to the career path of the delisted guys 2011-13.

 

[Defacto]

The thing that always has me scratching my head with Lyon is he's a coach that takes risks. He's not one to die wondering. But then he's also one of the most cautious coaches as well. It's bizarre

Just can't seem to trust youth and back them in but he's ok taking a punt on GF day such as dropping Big Ben and going in with one ruck. Bizarro stuff

 

[ike2112]

I think he's the sort who sits down in offseason and works everything out in minute detail.
But is then prone to making a decision on gameday that might contradict the overall strategy.
If it works, he's adaptable, if it doesn't, he's inconsistent.

 

[VDS66]

Most coaches dont even get close to a premiership. How can u guys bag Lyon as a coach... Unbelievable.
Premierships are like diamonds. There hard to find. Not only are they hard to win but its hard to get a team in a position to really contend for 1. But heres a coach that regularly gets his team to top 4 almost every year hes been a head coach and people still dont think hes good. I cant remember people complaining when we were smashing teams by 100 points every week and winning prelims.
It doesnt just come down to how good players u have either. I could name a few teams that should have a good enough list to contend and yet dont even get close. and this happens all the time.

Great comments.

2009 was a freak year.

If he gets slammed for not winning a flag, then he has to be given credit for getting us there in 2010, despite everything that went wrong with Roo and Gram.

 

[VDS66]

And Clarkson was bamboozled by Lyon's press in 2009.

Not a match day coach? Kick straight in 09 & we all know the result.

Clarkson has benefitted from being at a stable club with huge resources to develop players. He's a great coach no doubt, I rate Ross his equal despite what he did to the club that I love.

I don't believe the 'he can't develop players' to an extent. How many of our players improved dramatically from 2008 to 2010? How many fell away under Watters & we're not the same players? Lyon obviously could get the best out of blokes & correct me if I'm wrong, but IMO that is exactly what development is all about. Players being the best they can be.

People with any doubts should read The Bubble. To say he had the players running through walls for him would be a massive understatement.

 

[gringo2011]

I think it's harsh to say young players stalled under Watters; it was more that they were already struggling and on the way out. Bear in mind majority of the young lads on the list were low picks.

I think the situation was exasperated further by Watters and the rest of the staff misjudging the list a little; they seemed to think we were still an outside chance at the 8, when in reality the bottom was about to fall out. During the season aims seemed to change, decisions on gameday contradicted earlier statements, and I think young players got games for the hell of it rather than on merit.
But overall I don't see that Watters being a bit better of a coach (or people person) would have made any difference to the career path of the delisted guys 2011-13.

To me the biggest factor in Ross and Watters not developing youth was the fact we just had terrible luck with drafting. It's not easy to pick who will make it, so much has to go right even to get into the seniors especially when you have a good team. A kid needs a spot to open up, make an instant impact, hold it, stave off injury and be good enough in staying motivated playing lower grades to have received the spot in the first place. Then you have to be of a very high standard to make the team any better.

Recruiting guns instead of spuds is partly luck. Collingwood got Pendlebury, Beams, Sidebottom etc over a couple of drafts and went up quickly, Geelong likewise found Christensen, Duncan and Motlop etc and have been able to stay up.

We had about 5 drafts with not much to show for them. That killed us not the coaches IMO.

 

[SaintLex]

To me the biggest factor in Ross and Watters not developing youth was the fact we just had terrible luck with drafting. It's not easy to pick who will make it, so much has to go right even to get into the seniors especially when you have a good team. A kid needs a spot to open up, make an instant impact, hold it, stave off injury and be good enough in staying motivated playing lower grades to have received the spot in the first place. Then you have to be of a very high standard to make the team any better.

Recruiting guns instead of spuds is partly luck. Collingwood got Pendlebury, Beams, Sidebottom etc over a couple of drafts and went up quickly, Geelong likewise found Christensen, Duncan and Motlop etc and have been able to stay up.

We had about 5 drafts with not much to show for them. That killed us not the coaches IMO.

It's partly luck, but it has much more to do with recruitment and even more to do with development. Collingwood and Geelong are two of the best clubs in both those departments because they have the resources and knowledge. To blame all our issues on Ross Lyon or Scott Watters is short-sighted, imo, but there's no doubt that we brought it upon ourselves in some way. If we were to place blame it would be shared by the coaches, recruiters and the board.

 

[gringo2011]

It's partly luck, but it has much more to do with recruitment and even more to do with development. Collingwood and Geelong are two of the best clubs in both those departments because they have the resources and knowledge. To blame all our issues on Ross Lyon or Scott Watters is short-sighted, imo, but there's no doubt that we brought it upon ourselves in some way. If we were to place blame it would be shared by the coaches, recruiters and the board.

Yeah thats true as well. The Cats had something like 4 full time development coaches to just manage their VFL players, Ross famously didn't even care to speak to his VFL players and apart from our senior coach at Sandy they were left to self manage. Watters demanded more from the board and did instigate some development strategy at least. Jack Steven said that Watters had spoken to him more in his first two weeks than Lyon had in the previous years at the club.

Ross was looking for rough diamonds with pre loaded development who were ready to step up. Peake was considered a less risky option than Steven because you might lose a bit of unpredictable brilliance but you get a guy who has played enough senior footy to not give you any surprises. It's two different systems but what ever he did he gave us a couple of shots at glory so did okay and nearly was a legend of our club.

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

Im grateful for the very competitive yrs we had
But im pretty sure Lyon isnt sitting around thinking about St.kilda anymore.
Hes moved on. So have I.

 

[karaoke]

Im grateful for the very competitive yrs we had
But im pretty sure Lyon isnt sitting around thinking about St.kilda anymore.
Hes moved on. So have I.

^ +1

 

[CountryRace]

I'd be shitting my self as a freo fan in regards to my lost long term health... Seems to go all I. I reckon

Unless they get a flag

 

[mysainters]

Ross would of been really uncomfortable today.

For mine, there was more there today than the trainng before the grand finals.

Show us some love, and.....

 

[Armitage2Riewoldt]

Ross would of been really uncomfortable today.

For mine, there was more there today than the trainng before the grand finals.

Show us some love, and.....

Spent a solid 15 seconds wondering why Seb would have been uncomfortable - he's fairly pale and it was really warm?

Agree, very good turn out. I enjoy seeing the street of Seaford clogged, even if it only happens once a year.

 

[mysainters]

Spent a solid 15 seconds wondering why Seb would have been uncomfortable - he's fairly pale and it was really warm?

Agree, very good turn out. I enjoy seeing the street of Seaford clogged, even if it only happens once a year.

Nah I meant Ross Lyon, all those "fans" about...no security crawling everywhere

 

[CountryRace]

Spent a solid 15 seconds wondering why Seb would have been uncomfortable - he's fairly pale and it was really warm?

Agree, very good turn out. I enjoy seeing the street of Seaford clogged, even if it only happens once a year.

How much were they asking for the parking next to the ground?

Agree it's funny to see the small street people everywhere