Discussion Ross Lyon

[goodie23]

Great article. Particularly interesting:

This time, however, a post-season operation on a hip cartilage tear he sustained in the Round 1 game against Geelong meant he had time to reflect.

This is a man who truly bleeds for the club. Give him the captaincy next year, it's time

 

[CHBench]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

Nice to hear, but im not throwing a party or anything, interesting he highlighted the fact Ross' contract hanging their heads last year as a factor - or rather not having that surround this year has contributed to a clean slate, but i dare say BJ's sitch is gonna draw as much if not more attention.. Does this mean he's gonna sign soon?


Would like to hear what the David Armitage's and Tom Lynch's and Tom Walsh's of the world think of Ross Lyon. Pretty sure they've asked all the accomodated reg senior players who wouldn't have a bone to pick, but i want some truth bombs.

 

[Squizz]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

Sorry to harp, but again that's a poor effort from Lyon.

The guy has a cartiledge tear which needs time to heal, yet he keeps playing (poorly by his standards). I remember wondering why he went a bit handball happy - 68 kicks (and average of 8 kicks a game) to 89 handballs from round 2 to 9 - makes sense now.

Not pleasing.

 

[sammm]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

Sorry to harp, but again that's a poor effort from Lyon.

The guy has a cartiledge tear which needs time to heal, yet he keeps playing (poorly by his standards). I remember wondering why he went a bit handball happy - 68 kicks (and average of 8 kicks a game) to 89 handballs from round 2 to 9 - makes sense now.

Not pleasing.

so whose fault is it? the player for saying that he is ok to play. the club or the coach? its not just BJ as being the only player who played injured last year.

but i wonder would it not have been better for him to have surgery after round 1 last year then rest etc

 

[Squizz]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

so whose fault is it? the player for saying that he is ok to play. the club or the coach?

We are talking about BJ, who would probably put his hand up to play with a broken leg. We had this issue with Ball years ago, and more recently with Kosi in 2010.

I'd question whether any of these were in the interests of the team or the player.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

Benchy, just on Armo and Lyon. Armitage's brother is a regular poster on Saintsational, DWOODROW. It is quite clear from his comments that Armo despised Lyon with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns. Hated him. Felt that he was extremely hard-done by throughout Lyon's tenure: not picked on his merits; and when he was picked, played out of position in roles that did not utilise his strengths. This was exacerbated by the fact that often other players lacking those strengths were placed in his preferred roles instead.

I get the impression that these are very similar reasons to Ball's for leaving. Both of them are quite similar players, and whereas Ball has excelled at Collingwood where his role is appreciated, he and Armo's role was not appreciated at all by Ross Lyon.

From all reports Watters has a much greater appreciation of Ball's style of game, and thus this will have positive implications for Armitage.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

so whose fault is it? the player for saying that he is ok to play. the club or the coach? its not just BJ as being the only player who played injured last year.

but i wonder would it not have been better for him to have surgery after round 1 last year then rest etc

Beeg bleeds for the jumper, and had a great degree of respect and trust of Lyon. If Lyon told him to suck it up and take it for the team, I suspect he did just that.

Lyon is to blame, here.

(sorry, I don't usually get this grumpy about Lyon, but yeah, some of his personnel policies have come to light, and were not at all acceptable)

 

[mysainters]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

Beeg bleeds for the jumper, and had a great degree of respect and trust of Lyon. If Lyon told him to suck it up and take it for the team, I suspect he did just that.

Lyon is to blame, here.

(sorry, I don't usually get this grumpy about Lyon, but yeah, some of his personnel policies have come to light, and were not at all acceptable)

How long was BJ's rehab?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was about 9 weeks from start to finish?

So I guess he still would of been able to return about midway through the season if he'd had surgery week one....and been back for the business end.

I feel strange about it PS, because I had a lot of time for Lyon. He wooed me over the journey, yet like you, certain things trouble me now.

 

[StFly]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

This is true but some people seem to forget that whilst Goddard wants to play for the Saints, he wants to be rewarded fairly in monetary terms. Therefore he's going to look silly if he says I'll be staying at St.Kilda until the club has laid out its exact offer. Club has done a fair bit of re-jigging contracts to prepare for this and free agency. I would think free agency targets would be getting looked at right now and once is this assembled, a figure will be put to BJ's management.

Entirely depends on the package deal in such situations, and I don't mean draft picks, I mean the outside TPP payment schemes these top tier players get to "fluff" their pay packet. Everyone likes to throw around guys like Judd & Ablett for being mercs for taking a vastly increased TPP packet, yet a core component for the switch was the added incentives outside of it, like the VISY associations. Clubs these days are more "halfway houses" than simply footy clubs as if you stick around you are groomed, prepped and doors open in corporate Australia that a 200k increase to crack that 1m mark ends up being insignificant.

I feel strange about it PS, because I had a lot of time for Lyon. He wooed me over the journey, yet like you, certain things trouble me now.

There were several "weeks" last year and slightly less prior to where "decisions" or the "flow" of the side were simply odd, I can recall commenting on some in isolation, such as Eddy as a lead up target one week, several assists, shots on from outside 50 and fluid movement one week the next no assists and spotting up from outside 50 equated to obvious coaching instructions. However, due to the "success" these "oddities" were rarely anything to harp on about as they were minor.

What is gleaned from hindsight now that Ross has left however is a possibility to connect the dots that were always there.

 

[CHBench]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

Benchy, just on Armo and Lyon. Armitage's brother is a regular poster on Saintsational, DWOODROW. It is quite clear from his comments that Armo despised Lyon with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns. Hated him. Felt that he was extremely hard-done by throughout Lyon's tenure: not picked on his merits; and when he was picked, played out of position in roles that did not utilise his strengths. This was exacerbated by the fact that often other players lacking those strengths were placed in his preferred roles instead.

I get the impression that these are very similar reasons to Ball's for leaving. Both of them are quite similar players, and whereas Ball has excelled at Collingwood where his role is appreciated, he and Armo's role was not appreciated at all by Ross Lyon.

From all reports Watters has a much greater appreciation of Ball's style of game, and thus this will have positive implications for Armitage.

I did catch a few of DW's posts, but sifting thru the rest of the site got a little annoying. All that is not surprising tho, which is why i want the question asked. Like you, im expecting big things from Armo this year, even though he played every game last year, i very much think we'll be seeing him well and truly breakout properly this season. His comments on SW's style were interesting.

Not surprisingly, Armitage is just as complimentary of new senior coach Scott Watters for his direct approach.

"He's been brilliant. He is a really down to earth kind of guy. He tells you how it is and he tries to help you," he said.

"He talks to you and lets you know what you need to improve on and what you're expected to do in the team. He's very focused."

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/128928/default.aspx

"He talks to you". Read between those lines. IIRC Tom Lynch had similar things to say about Brenton Sanderson, which was the tipping factor for his move.


On BJ's hip - Imagine losing BJ, then Lenny - the two that nearly dragged us over the line to #2, within 7 days of the season starting after the double GF loss, nudes, kim and nz. Would've absolutley shot the supporters. Wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't BJ's or RL's call to keep him playing on. You couldn't script that shit. Absolute disaster in every sense.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

I did catch a few of DW's posts, but sifting thru the rest of the site got a little annoying. All that is not surprising tho, which is why i want the question asked. Like you, im expecting big things from Armo this year, even though he played every game last year, i very much think we'll be seeing him well and truly breakout properly this season. His comments on SW's style were interesting.




"He talks to you". Read between those lines. IIRC Tom Lynch had similar things to say about Brenton Sanderson, which was the tipping factor for his move.


On BJ's hip - Imagine losing BJ, then Lenny - the two that nearly dragged us over the line to #2, within 7 days of the season starting after the double GF loss, nudes, kim and nz. Would've absolutley shot the supporters. Wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't BJ's or RL's call to keep him playing on. You couldn't script that shit. Absolute disaster in every sense.

Some injuries need to be fixed , but dont get worse if you dont.
BJ must surely have been in that category ( given that he's not crippled right now ).
If they had operated immediately he MIGHT have been back in time to play finals. Probably the decision to play on wasn't that bad.

 

[sammm]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

I did catch a few of DW's posts, but sifting thru the rest of the site got a little annoying. All that is not surprising tho, which is why i want the question asked. Like you, im expecting big things from Armo this year, even though he played every game last year, i very much think we'll be seeing him well and truly breakout properly this season. His comments on SW's style were interesting.




"He talks to you". Read between those lines. IIRC Tom Lynch had similar things to say about Brenton Sanderson, which was the tipping factor for his move.


On BJ's hip - Imagine losing BJ, then Lenny - the two that nearly dragged us over the line to #2, within 7 days of the season starting after the double GF loss, nudes, kim and nz. Would've absolutley shot the supporters. Wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't BJ's or RL's call to keep him playing on. You couldn't script that shit. Absolute disaster in every sense.

do you think the players are then saying that Ross didn't talk to the younger players much for the 5 years as coach? or maybe it was just in the last year or 2? or what?

maybe all coaches are like that? its hte assistants that talk to the players the coach probably does not have the time to go to each players regulary??

what do you all think?

 

[mysainters]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

do you think the players are then saying that Ross didn't talk to the younger players much for the 5 years as coach? or maybe it was just in the last year or 2? or what?

maybe all coaches are like that? its hte assistants that talk to the players the coach probably does not have the time to go to each players regulary??

what do you all think?

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere (and don't quote me) that up until last year Ross didn't really go to watch Sandringham or see how the kids were going?

Then he made some kind of admission after the NZL thingo, when a few kids went of the rails a little, that he was perhaps out of touch. He then started turning up sometimes, taking more of an interest?

 

[CHBench]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

My knowledge only goes as far as heresay. I do remember there were rumblings that the squad was fairly segregated during Ross' time, with RL focusing a lot of his time on the older players and barely had much for the younger lot. Almost like they trained seperately. I didn't take much notice of it at the time, but the confirmation of Ross' lack of interest in the affiliation with Sandringham, both the club as a whole and the Saints players taking the field for them, makes me think there was a bit of truth to it.

Then his whole attitude towards introducing younger players to the 22, Jack Steven was the only one that could break down the wall in 5 years. McEvoy's wall was broken by default.

And i doubt Malthouse, Matthews, Roos etc won their premierships by blowing off half their playing list.

 

[mysainters]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

It also explains the regret expressed towards his departure from the 'core' players, I'm sure that if you were in, you were in.

Maybe Ross was born a man child, and doesn't know what it was to be a young man?

 

[Squizz]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

Maybe Ross was born a man child, and doesn't know what it was to be a young man?

Would have thought he'd be more understanding:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/ross-lyon-interview/story-e6frf9n6-1111112929162

 

[mysainters]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

Would have thought he'd be more understanding:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/ross-lyon-interview/story-e6frf9n6-1111112929162

Thanks for that, interesting read.

I don't know, it's doesn't just appear to be one or two rumblings, it seemed across the board if you were under 22....it was kind of a tough environment to develop both personally and as a footballer.

 

[Crippa2Sipa]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

Thanks for that, interesting read.

I don't know, it's doesn't just appear to be one or two rumblings, it seemed across the board if you were under 22....it was kind of a tough environment to develop both personally and as a footballer.

LOL.

So from one or two disgruntled players we now leap to rumblings "across the board if you were under 22".

Lucky Ross left before the mutiny erupted!

I never heard any rumblings emanating from our stars-in-waiting, like Sipa, Crippa, Crocker and Ledger. Courtesy of AFL Media, there's footage for all to see of Ledger relishing his development under Ross with a quite extraordinary degree of zest.

I never heard any rumblings either (when he was a mere lad growing up in that "tough environment") from young Ben McEvoy, whose development "both personally and as a footballer" under Ross is universally feted.

Having said that, I can and do sympathize with your need on here and on SS to engage in these oh-so-subtle attempts at character assassination.

You loved Ross while he was here.

You really, really loved him.

Anyone in that predicament would find it hard to let it go and move on now he's gone.

 

[mysainters]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

LOL.

So from one or two disgruntled players we now leap to rumblings "across the board if you were under 22".

Lucky Ross left before the mutiny erupted!

I never heard any rumblings emanating from our stars-in-waiting, like Sipa, Crippa, Crocker and Ledger. Courtesy of AFL Media, there's footage for all to see of Ledger relishing his development under Ross with a quite extraordinary degree of zest.

I never heard any rumblings either (when he was a mere lad growing up in that "tough environment") from young Ben McEvoy, whose development "both personally and as a footballer" under Ross is universally feted.

Having said that, I can and do sympathize with your need on here and on SS to engage in these oh-so-subtle attempts at character assassination.

You loved Ross while he was here.

You really, really loved him.

Anyone in that predicament would find it hard to let it go and move on now he's gone.

Plenty of other people have said similar on this thread, are you going to engage them in a similar conversation?

I have said, even on this thread, I have a lot of time for Lyon. I will be watching in earnest tonight when he is on the couch.

Ben has developed wonderfully, but not even I am rose coloured to believe he'd have been first ruckman last year if Gardi was fit and available.

Yes, his embracing of the youth had a marked change in 2011 and he was very good with the kids drafted, that I agree with.

I was participating in a conversation, however if people don't want to talk about Lyon anymore, I can be on board with that.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

Actually in support of your overall argument, SK, I don't think our young guns were managed well last year. Managing them doesn't mean just playing them. The young guns he played last year were played for too long, and ended up with injuries that further slowed their development. It is just further proof of Lyon's inept approach to developing youth. That was okay, because we didn't hire him to do that - we hired him to get us a premiership NOW, and to hell with the future. He missed his chances, and the future has become now. Hence all the investment in proper youth management at the club now.

 

[Crippa2Sipa]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

we hired him to get us a premiership NOW, and to hell with the future. He missed his chances

He missed his chances? HIM? Don't make me laugh. Players are paid the big bucks to make sure we don't miss the easy shots on goal that the coach's game plan put us in a position to kick. They didn't. We lost. End of story. Move on.

 

[Sunshine Saint]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

I was a huge supporter of Ross Lyon in his time at St Kilda.

For all of my frustrations with his excessive defence and his unjustified extreme loyalty to several players eg Zac Dawson and Raph Clarke, he took us to three Grand Finals and ever so close in two of them.

Great games, great results (well in all bar a few) and a fabulous time to be a Saints supporter.

Unfortunately the way Ross left St Kilda and the manner in which he switched to Fremantle, have tainted an outstanding record at St Kilda.

Tonight on "On the Couch" was his chance to redeem himself in many supporters eyes. To honestly outline what happened and why.

Ross Lyon tonight, was lucky he wasn't being interviewed by the character from the TV Show "Lie to Me", as he entire demeanour and body language, screamed that he wasn't being straight, or honest for the entire interview. If you missed it and get a chance, count the number of times that he looks to the heavens when trying to construct an answer.

Very very disappointing again Ross.

The King is Dead, long live the King. A new era, a successful era for St Kilda.

 

[mysainters]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

I think C2S entire argument, is that he doesn't actually have to justify anything.

According to them, the blame lies entirely with St Kilda. Any setting of things straight tonight, would of purely painted the club in a terrible light, and he has chosen to maintain a dignified silence because he has more integrity.

I still don't understand why Ross took the path he did, agreeing to terms, going behind his managers back, letting the entire football world (including the players) understand that he was turning up to a presser to announce his signing when he wasn't.

Was that some form of payback, purely to humiliate the club with visions of the CEO pacing the office hitting the TV that night, and giving everyone opportunity to ridicule the club?

If someone could shed some light on that, I would be grateful.

 

[hayes]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

I was a huge supporter of Ross Lyon in his time at St Kilda.

For all of my frustrations with his excessive defence and his unjustified extreme loyalty to several players eg Zac Dawson and Raph Clarke, he took us to three Grand Finals and ever so close in two of them.

Great games, great results (well in all bar a few) and a fabulous time to be a Saints supporter.

Unfortunately the way Ross left St Kilda and the manner in which he switched to Fremantle, have tainted an outstanding record at St Kilda.

Tonight on "On the Couch" was his chance to redeem himself in many supporters eyes. To honestly outline what happened and why.

Ross Lyon tonight, was lucky he wasn't being interviewed by the character from the TV Show "Lie to Me", as he entire demeanour and body language, screamed that he wasn't being straight, or honest for the entire interview. If you missed it and get a chance, count the number of times that he looks to the heavens when trying to construct an answer.

Very very disappointing again Ross.

The King is Dead, long live the King. A new era, a successful era for St Kilda.

Just saw the interview and to me it looked like if he answered the questions truthfully it would've done more harm than good so he said things like "I don't think I need to answer that" etc, but IMO he did what was best for him and his family. Freo offered him more money for more years and he almost had to take it. I appreciate what he did for us and probably the AFL in general (he changed the game with the forward press), but its time to move on and I'm looking forward to the next era and a more balanced gameplan.

 

[Crippa2Sipa]

Re: 2012 Media Thread

I think C2S entire argument, is that he doesn't actually have to justify anything.

According to them, the blame lies entirely with St Kilda. Any setting of things straight tonight, would of purely painted the club in a terrible light, and he has chosen to maintain a dignified silence because he has more integrity.

I still don't understand why Ross took the path he did, agreeing to terms, going behind his managers back, letting the entire football world (including the players) understand that he was turning up to a presser to announce his signing when he wasn't.

Was that some form of payback, purely to humiliate the club with visions of the CEO pacing the office hitting the TV that night, and giving everyone opportunity to ridicule the club?

If someone could shed some light on that, I would be grateful.

OK, since you ask SainterK, I'll try - again.

1. Ross didn't "go behind his manager's back". The manager is not some sort of victim as has been portrayed - except perhaps a victim of his own greed. As soon as contract talks with Freo began, Ross and his manager (Craig Kelly of ESP) - who also manages Mark Harvey - mutually agreed to terminate their relationship as a conflict of interest had arisen. Ross then hired another agent (his lawyer) who could guarantee confidentiality for Ross in his negotiations with Freo. Ross put all this on public record in his 1st presser with Freo.

Agents owe duties of confidentiality and undivided loyalty to their clients. In the situation that had arisen, ESP could not keep Lyon's confidences without betraying Harvey's faith. In that situation, ESP were OBLIGED to cease acting for Ross and Ross was right to ask them to do so.

Privately, Kelly was pissed off of course. It was in HIS interest that Ross do the deal with St Kilda - not Freo - because by Ross not doing the deal with St Kilda Kelly missed out on a slice of a very large pie. So Kelly (perhaps wanting to impress his other client, Nettlefold (the conflicts here are mind-boggling!) mouthed off in the Melbourne press about what an outrage had just been committed and how he had sacked Ross etc. I did chuckle, however, when I noticed, during his interviews in WA (when he thought Ross might be watching) he was a good boy & told the truth.

2. Those who accuse Ross of being "duplicitous" for talking to St Kilda and Freo at the same time are being silly. Ross was a free agent. He was free to walk at any time, to negotiate with 10 clubs at a time, and to disappear from one negotiation and show up at another. He was free to do so thanks to the clause we put in his contract which allowed him to leave at any time in return for the right to sack him at any time. This joke of a contract - Ross's "reward" for coaching a near perfect season and bringing us to the brink of a premiership in 2009 - denied Ross the security of a contract-payout that even the worst coaches in the League (such as Matthew Knights - who was paid $1m for being sacked) enjoy.

True, such a "contract" could only have been written by ******s - the same ******s who offered Ross a pay-cut in recognition of his efforts in 2010 in coaching us to a draw in the grand final despite Riewoldt being out for most of the season and Collingwood stealing all our IP.

But that was the situation we created. Not only that, we knew Ross was being pursued by another club for unheard of figures. So the onus was on us to act, and act quickly. We didn't. We faffed about. Then when pen was about to be put to paper, something occurred that upset Ross to the core. He left. We stuffed up. End of story.

Respect the man and move on.

3. You imply that Ross should have leaked to "the entire football world" his confidential negotiations with Freo while he was still engaged in them. You're joking, right?

4. As an aside, apropos of a poster on SS who claims to be aware of various confidential clauses in Ross's contract with Freo, and who has accompanied his "disclosures" with absurdities such as "Ross screwed his management" - I hope you can now see why it is impossible for any reasonable person to take such a person seriously.