Autopsy Round 10, 2024: St.Kilda v Fremantle

[KingJim]

Wilsooooooon. Give us 20 more! Standout.

 

[Sully111]

Wasn't it stated in one of the training reports recently from someone here that Windy took a tackler on and got caught and Ross went off and made him do laps or something?

Players look like they've had their mojo coached out of them to me.

 

[littlecreatures]

Wasn't it stated in one of the training reports recently from someone here that Windy took a tackler on and got caught and Ross went off and made him do laps or something?

Players look like they've had their mojo coached out of them to me.

Context is everything sometimes. Windy couldn’t execute a pass inside 50, tried deviating and pulling out the don’t argue, got done by Lance.

For what is largely a no contact drill, it’s a bit silly to try the don’t argue because you can’t execute inside 50 which is basically the drill.

 

[Cairnsman]

So your thesis is to keep playing him in the seniors even if he is no good, just because he thinks he is good?

Crazy logic there.

What?

 

[Teflon]

No one likes the way we are playing & not scoring but just to take the other extreme for a minute - all preseason we heard about Northball and what an exciting attacking developing team they would be. They have scored 677 points for the year and have a percentage of 56.8%. We have scored 722 points & 94.1%

That fell apart for them pretty quickly & I don’t think I’ve heard the term Northball for 2 months. My point - it’s easy to say and not so easy to implement & can fall apart very quickly.

Also in 2009 we scored heavily and strangled teams with the Lyon Cage. So give RTB some elite talent to work with and then watch us score.

Great post
Forget game plan nonsense it comes down to talent

 

[Sully111]

Context is everything sometimes. Windy couldn’t execute a pass inside 50, tried deviating and pulling out the don’t argue, got done by Lance.

For what is largely a no contact drill, it’s a bit silly to try the don’t argue because you can’t execute inside 50 which is basically the drill.

Had a feeling when I typed that I'd be wrong lol

I do feel like the younger players seem lost though

 

[Teflon]

A big over reaction. That's not how I heard it or interpreted it all. From memory I think Lyon said Pou was happy to play twos again. I read that as meaning he was okay if they thought he needed another game at Sandy, not meaning he wanted to play there. I actually took it as a complement to Pou that he was okay with whatever the coaches thought best.

Obviously some people hear what they want to hear depending on their personal agenda.

That’s exactly as I heard it
If anything he was complimentary of Pou’s attitude
Spot on

 

[Teflon]

The malaise is a result of injury to the midfield and eating away at our depth. Losing mids and small forwards while the kids have gone backwards. We then lost confidence and competitiveness. I hope we stay down now and load up in the draft.

To save us from being decimated we are locking down and. making the Saints the worst team to watch in footy. Ideal we get a few players back and look attractive and competitive without winning many more games.

I hope we stay down too - simply no point limping to 10th
I agree with Punter we could see a bounce here - who knows Lyon may have assessed to go forward he’ll go back first and bang the defensive drum into them ?
That sets us up longer term , protects from blow outs short term till the cavalry and new talent takes shape. It’s all speculation but the shift is interesting

 

[Coconut_twirl]

Sad state of affairs when our full forward is getting a pass mark for his game with a 0 goals 1 behind match. Yes I know delivery was poor...but still.

But he tried very hard with intent.

 

[EddieMurphy]

But he tried very hard with intent.

Trend is up (effort but not results) which is the minimum we needed to see.

 

[Oh When the Saints]

We need to set ourselves up similar to Hawthorn did prior to the Gold Coast/GWS competition entry. Albeit they won a flag in 08 and we haven’t.

Get young, get younger again, recruit from top end of draft, have our age demographic timed to peak at the 25-28 bracket when Tassie enter the comp in roughly 2028.

Have Lyon be our Paul Roos. Ingrain an attitude and acknowledgement of non negotiables into our youth that will be their default when they eventually do enter that sweet spot of age.

Yep. Listen to Andy Brayshaw talk about how he wouldn't be the player he is today if Ross Lyon hadn't taught him how to play AFL. Ross instills the right kind of discipline, mindset and understanding of the game. Nearly all the young guys he had at the Dockers in his last 2 years have succeeded and they all pay credit to him when interviewed. Whether or not he stays with this group beyond the next 2 years, he's the right guy to ingrain the right habits and standards for elite performance, just as Paul Roos did at Melbourne.

The other stat (probably already mentioned) that was interesting was:

2021 (Ratten) – avg 75 points per game
2022 (Ratten) – avg 77 points per game
2023 (Lyon) – avg 77 points per game
2024 (Lyon) – avg 72 points per game to date (was 77 points per game after round 8)

We have not meaningfully changed our scoring since Lyon took over. Ratten was no better offensively, despite having a midfield in 2021 with a fit AA Steele, Ryder, Crouch, plus Jones and Billings playing at a higher level. It's all perception.

We have meaningfully improved our defence though. Ratten couldn't coach defence at the Blues or Saints.

Until our midfield improves, we will struggle to score heavily. Crouch and Clark fit will help but the real improvement comes via the young guys learning and continually hitting the draft.

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

His averages this year are almost exactly the same as last year. Down 1 disposal and 0.2 goals a game this year.

AFL Tables - Mattaes Phillipou - Stats - Statistics

I still think he should be doing better though and, obviously, his last few games have been pretty terrible.

Eye test is everything though. Last year he looked a player

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

Saw this on a Saints Facebook page and its too funny not to share, now that's a rant


We are ******* s**t!
We need to kick goals to win games of football. Why the heck are we so s*t at scoring??? Zero forward craft. We are the shittest team to watch in the league. Shittest game plan, most pathetic offense, over hand balling, absolute ****** trash! Pox ridden ******* dog s**t

Was the poster Ross Lyon?

 

[Present Not Past]

Geelong have still got players they took in the 2006 draft.
Hell they have players WE took in the 2007 draft.

If you aren't constantly shoving players out the door, you aren't constantly having to replace them.

Notable Ins vs Outs.
How did Richo have a chance when we lost 25 good best 22 players, and struggled to find 7?

2009: Peake / Ball , Hudghton.
2010: -- / King
2011: Ross, Webster / Gardiner, Baker.
2012: Roberton, Hickey / Goddard, Peake, Gram
2013: Longer, Bruce, Billings , Dunstan, Acres, Savage / DalSanto , McEvoy. Blake , Milne , Koschitski
2014: Membrey , Sinclair / Gwilt , Stanley, Hayes , Jones
2015: Carlilse Gresham / Schneider, Ray
2016: Steele, Stevens , Brown, Battle, Marshall, Carlilse / Fisher
2017: Clark / Dempster, Riewoldt, Montagna.
2018: King, Wilkie / Hickey , Stevens, Gilbert
2019: Hill, Howard, Jones , Butler / Armitage , Longer , Acres Steven
2020: Crouch, Higgins, Wood / Brown, Savage
2021: Wanganeen-Milera Owens, Windhager / Roberton , Dunstan Carlisle,
2022: Philipou / Geary
2023 : Wilson / Gresham, Billings

You seemed to have forgotten that St Kilda drafted Paddy McCartin in 2014.
That's alright. Everyone has forgotten as well.

 

[Ads734]

On the Bonner big mistake, boy was Brad Hill leading very fast on that kick in. He was not an easy target to hit running that hard. Hill didn't make it easy for Bonner by any means.

I take all the commentary on Bonner. He's a good not but great, ambitious kick. He's probably on a par kicking wise with Webster, but Webster is hard so gets more credit, and fair enough too.

But with Paton in the side, as well as Webster, Sinclair, NWM and Stocker on the sidelines, and all far from our worst this season, I've arrived at the stage were I wouldn't be kicking up a fuss if Bonner missed this weekend. I'll also be fine if he plays.

The ball went through hills fingers. He’s nearly a 250 gamer. That’s a mark everyday of the week.

 

[gringo2011]

I hope we stay down too - simply no point limping to 10th
I agree with Punter we could see a bounce here - who knows Lyon may have assessed to go forward he’ll go back first and bang the defensive drum into them ?
That sets us up longer term , protects from blow outs short term till the cavalry and new talent takes shape. It’s all speculation but the shift is interesting

With Crouch back and Snags and Butler ready to come back we should be a more competitive side.

 

[gringo2011]

Eye test is everything though. Last year he looked a player

It's easier for the kids to be on the periphery and play on lesser players. When you lose senior players the pressure pushes down on the kids. That's why Sydney and Geelong seem to seamlessly develop kids and only the real stars push up in sides like North.

Phillipou is playing on ball against the best players in the league and not impacting. He then goes back to the forward line and the entries are terrible and he can't get easy marks and touches because Snags, Butler and King aren't making space for him. Confidence drops off, starts trying too hard and we get to were we are at.

If he's still struggling in 2 years we have a problem. Right now he's a second year player struggling to make an impact. All kids have gone backwards apart from Windhager for the same reason.

 

[gringo2011]

The ball went through hills fingers. He’s nearly a 250 gamer. That’s a mark everyday of the week.

Accidents happen and it was probably a bit too much on the kick and a bit of spending it before he had it. At the end of the day it was symbolic of the way the game was going. We got let off and then found a way to shoot ourselves in the foot again.

 

[The Punter]

The ball went through hills fingers. He’s nearly a 250 gamer. That’s a mark everyday of the week.

Not for Brad Hill - he has always had terrible hands. That pass could be kicked to him 100 more times and Hill would mark it maybe once or twice.

 

[Cairnsman]

No one likes the way we are playing & not scoring but just to take the other extreme for a minute - all preseason we heard about Northball and what an exciting attacking developing team they would be. They have scored 677 points for the year and have a percentage of 56.8%. We have scored 722 points & 94.1%

That fell apart for them pretty quickly & I don’t think I’ve heard the term Northball for 2 months. My point - it’s easy to say and not so easy to implement & can fall apart very quickly.

Also in 2009 we scored heavily and strangled teams with the Lyon Cage. So give RTB some elite talent to work with and then watch us score.

No talent = no execution

It ain't rocket surgery

And that's not meant to be an expression of my undying love for a coach, it's just the facts based on the history of every premiership ever won, you still need a good coach, but you need the right amount of talented players more.

 

[sauce_head]

Eye test is everything though. Last year he looked a player

Yeah I agree he looks way off this year.

 

[Saintbloke]

Great post
Forget game plan nonsense it comes down to talent

Basset could have saved his money by keeping Ratts, if game plans don't make any difference. A bunch of talented players running around with no direction or plan wont go very far. The past is gone, and that's where Lyon's heyday of coaching was.

 

[phantom13]

Great post
Forget game plan nonsense it comes down to talent

Yeh im not so sure about that. If we played slingshot corridor footy we have Sincs, Nas, Hill, Wood, Henry. Were built to run and gun. Were gonna get smacked in the midfield for sure but theres a scenario that plays into our strengths, were not doing that. No team is good at all things all the time but Ross seems to want to play a style of footy thats completely contrary to our strengths.

Now others have noted that he might be starting with defence and instilling discipline and standards and i hope to god thats the case but its hard to see the plan right now.

Yep. Listen to Andy Brayshaw talk about how he wouldn't be the player he is today if Ross Lyon hadn't taught him how to play AFL. Ross instills the right kind of discipline, mindset and understanding of the game. Nearly all the young guys he had at the Dockers in his last 2 years have succeeded and they all pay credit to him when interviewed. Whether or not he stays with this group beyond the next 2 years, he's the right guy to ingrain the right habits and standards for elite performance, just as Paul Roos did at Melbourne.

The other stat (probably already mentioned) that was interesting was:

2021 (Ratten) – avg 75 points per game
2022 (Ratten) – avg 77 points per game
2023 (Lyon) – avg 77 points per game
2024 (Lyon) – avg 72 points per game to date (was 77 points per game after round 8)

We have not meaningfully changed our scoring since Lyon took over. Ratten was no better offensively, despite having a midfield in 2021 with a fit AA Steele, Ryder, Crouch, plus Jones and Billings playing at a higher level. It's all perception.

We have meaningfully improved our defence though. Ratten couldn't coach defence at the Blues or Saints.

Until our midfield improves, we will struggle to score heavily. Crouch and Clark fit will help but the real improvement comes via the young guys learning and continually hitting the draft.

2021 was COVID affected wasnt it? I also think 23 was the anomoly, we were not playing Ross ball at all so in reality were comparing 77 to 72. 5 points over the course of a season is the difference. you add that into last season and our percentage overall is better than Carlton or Port. The differences between most of those 4-12 teams over a season isnt much.

 

[malevu]

Including pretty much everyone in the media who commented on it.

I dont hate Ross so can we not make this a "youll look for any excuse" thing. My read of it was the same as a number of media pundits so at the very least its not just something ive made up here.

As I inferred in my post, "media pundits" with an agenda.

 

[phantom13]

As I inferred in my post, "media pundits" with an agenda.

I have no agenda and i took it that way. Someone like a Stevie J i dont think has an agenda (not that id listen too closely to him).

Ross sat next to most of these guys, if anything theyve gone pretty easy on him overall until now.

Anyway, i think it was a really poor choice for Ross to comment on it and I think its exposed Pou, others dont, we can all move on.