Autopsy Round 7 vs Saints rant thread

[Big Sim]

So we all agree then - it wasn't such a bad loss - it was a loss which is bad...
learn - move on.

Hear hear

 

[blueboy25]

Ditto AJ who should have let Henderson cover Milne because he was goal side. Joseph gave away an unnecessary free and a goal.

This is the exact moment my foxtel remote was nearly smashed into a million pieces.

 

[Blue since 72]

The run of 4 behinds in a row in the second quarter really hurt us. All of them gettable shots. Nail those & we go in at half time with a lead & our tails up. Instead in the 3rd quarter we find ourselves playing catch up football, missed a couple of more gettable opportunities & lose the quarter despite having the better of the quarter.

Agree wholeheartedly, would have walked off at half time with a completely different mindset.

However the reality was missed chances. The players should have come out like raging bulls at the start of the 3rd and got back into the game but instead you could mount an argument that they played like they expected it to happen rather than making it happen.

Group mindset is the key yet it looks like it is fragile under constant pressure.

 

[mike ockerts]

Agree wholeheartedly, would have walked off at half time with a completely different mindset.

However the reality was missed chances. The players should have come out like raging bulls at the start of the 3rd and got back into the game but instead you could mount an argument that they played like they expected it to happen rather than making it happen.

Group mindest is the key yet it looks like it is fragile under constant pressure.

Agree in a way, the problem at visy park people, is to few want to "pay the price" to few are willing to roll up the sleeves and fight for what they signed up for and "pay the price"
Those here with a football back ground will know what I mean by "pay the price"

 

[laminex]

This is the exact moment my foxtel remote was nearly smashed into a million pieces.

I had my remote in my hand at that time, i lifted my arm to throw it at my new 65" TV.

Thanks god for once in my like i didn't do something so stupid and go thru with what i wanted to do.

 

[ESKIE]

Carlton FC ‏@Carlton_FC
"We could've helped Marc out a bit more as a team. We could've been more aggressive with Jones." #RattenPresser



Ratts presser today, ... so why wasn;t something done at the time?

could've, would've, should've

 

[Talart248]

Agree in a way, the problem at visy park people, is to few want to "pay the price" to few are willing to roll up the sleeves and fight for what they signed up for and "pay the price"
Those here with a football back ground will know what I mean by "pay the price"

There are times when I see a game of footy being played in the current style and have to accept the umpires would run out of pen ink writing reports if the players started to have a real "old fashioned dip." I don't mean thumping opponents either.

Paying the price is something that champion teams do to win premierships. They do it the whole season and not at the end in the last game.

 

[steveo898]

Carlton FC ‏@Carlton_FC
"We could've helped Marc out a bit more as a team. We could've been more aggressive with Jones." #RattenPresser



Ratts presser today, ... so why wasn;t something done at the time?

could've, would've, should've

Such a tease ey! Always looks like he is about to lock down his position as one of the greats in the competition, But never can get any consistency in his game

 

[Blue since 72]

Such a tease ey! Always looks like he is about to lock down his position as one of the greats in the competition, But never can get any consistency in his game

Bit unfair. The best mids in the game get tagged out of a game sooner or later. Been happening to Judd for a few years now.

 

[Peete]

Lots of ways to negate a tag to our advantage - McClure made an excellent point regarding what Murphy OR the bench should have told Murphy to do.

If they want to tag Murphy - Murphy tags one of their best - essentially dragging his tag with him - freeing up one of our players - last week it would have been Judd....DOH!

Ratten said today something interesting - he said we played like silos- if you look at Adelaide they play like a team.

Last few weeks we look like three seperate dysfucntional structures B/M/F- with no linkages between any...thats why we looked slow and thats why we had bad ball into F's.

This week we get back one vital link - YarrAn - so we might be able to (again) go from HB to lead up marking target ( Betts/Gartlett/Walker in forward F50 with one precise running kick - this was the winning formula last year .

 

[Blue since 72]

Lots of ways to negate a tag to our advantage - McClure made an excellent point regarding what Murphy OR the bench should have told Murphy to do.

If they want to tag Murphy - Murphy tags one of their best - essentially dragging his tag with him - freeing up one of our players - last week it would have been Judd....DOH!

Ratten said today something interesting - he said we played like silos- if you look at Adelaide they play like a team.

Last few weeks we look like three seperate dysfucntional structures B/M/F- with no linkages between any...thats why we looked slow and thats why we had bad ball into F's.

This week we get back one vital link - YarrAn - so we might be able to (again) go from HB to lead up marking target ( Betts/Gartlett/Walker in forward F50 with one precise running kick - this was the winning formula last year .

If he thinks that then it says to me that the team for whatever reason didn't adhere to the game plan. Surely Yarran isn't the only one with the keys to the car.

Now I'm pretty sure they know what the plan is so does that bring it back to lack of effort in implementation or did they just go to water because the other side pushed them?

 

[carlton2dabone]

hello,

I dont necessarily disagree with you but would like to point out that many times a team gives 100% early in the season and dominates but by the end of the season they have no left to offer and then they either miss out on the finals or miss out on the premiership, ala, Essendon last year. Sure the perfect way to win a flag is to dominate the entire year and then finish it off on the day that counts most, but being a realist, this does just not happen that often as other teams then have the time to analze your gameplan and so forth to thwart you.

Many supporters expect perfection from the team on gameday, but everyone has to realize that the game goes for 2 hours which means that it is entirely unrealistic to expect the players to not have some fumbles, some errant kicks, some dropping marks and some mind lapses throghout the entire contest. I can undertsand the frustration of many with Mondays game, and i was as frustrated as any with the way it played out, but not because of errors in general but because they were just so many of them.

If you look back at last year and the first 7 rounds of this year, that quantity of mistakes has just not been that prevelant in our games, and I know that our players are some of them most skillful in the league, so I am just puttting this down to players have a bad day on the job (we all have those), and also to a little bit of being down on confidence.

The thing that worries me is that we have beeen getting smashed in the clearances which should be our top strength. Its not because the players are soft as many here are suggesting, it because of our current setups at stoppages. What happens is that the opposition have started to put extra numbers around the stoppages to limit our access to the ball, and even when we do get first hands on the ball, the opposition have extra players there to pressure us into losing control of the ball.

Having said that, we are still getting more F50's than the opposing teams which means that we are still getting our hands to the ball. The way we do this is by either winning it in defence and then going forward or by winning the possession straight after they get the first position out of a clearance.

Remember people to win a game of footy, you have to score more points than your opposition which means that you have to get forward more than them and convert those forward thrusts. Having more forward entries compared to the saints, suggests that we are doing this, our problem is that we are not making the most out of the forward entries.

This is because the opposition are crowding numbers back to congest our forward line and not give us the space to convert. With having more numbers back there than we do, they are inevitably going to win possession in our forward half more than we do, nothing we can do about that.

What we have to do is make sure that when they do win possession we have a wall set up outside of our forward 50 to stop the counterattack and then to pump it back into our forwards. Now we can either chip it around waiting until we find a clear target which means our delivery has to be 100%, or we can bomb it back in long, and hope our players can either rove or kick a miracle goal which will not happen that often withe the amount of players in such a small area.

So heres what i propose, we need to either start bringing more of our players into the stoppages to match theirs, or we continue to do as we are doing.

My preference is to keep doing what we are doing, because i personally would rather watch an exciting game of football than a boring, over gongested, low scoring game. Think about it people, if we startewd to play the Ross Lyon type of football, would you be happy with that. I personally would not be.

Sure we all want to win, thats a given, but i look forward to carlton games not because of the final result, i look forward to the games so that i can have 2 hours of entertainment where i can cheer the things they do on field. If i just wantewd the wins, i would just check the scores ate the end of the game, and thats what i would be doing if we played a boring Ross Lyon defensive type of game. I look forward to see a Simpson recieve on the outside and run up the wing to deliver to a forward, I look forward to seeing one of our backmen spoil or mark, and then quickly movew the ball on to our players who have run off the oppponents to provide the spread that makes the game exciting, etc.

What we have to do is increase our workrate to run back into defence once we lose control of the ball. If we do that then we can keep our special and exciting movement of ball, but we will also be able to help our defence out.

Now, I understand that with our spread and running offensively off our opponents, that most times we will not be able to cover them when we lose control or turn the ball over, but i except that because thats just the way the game goes.

The opposition can kick 180 points for all i care, as long as we kick more than them. Doesnt matter to me whether they kick a little or alot, as long as we kick more than them to win the game. On Monday we could have done that, because we had more F50 entries than them, but what stropped us from doing exactly that was the way we delivered the ball forward.

So we need to sharpen up our delivery into forward 50 and we can still win thbe game.

i expect the team to put more effort into the stoppages, i expect them to run a little harder to try and cover their opponents when we lose control of the ball, and i expect them to kick better into the forward line and even try and find better options in forward.

if we can do that, then we will undoubteldy come our as victors, so people, please, its not as dire as some of you are making it out to be, we just have to brush up on some aspects of our game, and i will guarantee that we will win.

our skills are better than they were the last game, and that is proven with our last year and last seven rounds, we just have not been making as many mistakes as we did on Monday, that game was just a off night.

 

[Peete]

If he thinks that then it says to me that the team for whatever reason didn't adhere to the game plan. Surely Yarran isn't the only one with the keys to the car.

Now I'm pretty sure they know what the plan is so does that bring it back to lack of effort in implementation or did they just go to water because the other side pushed them?

Blue72

Link guys with speed, skill and ability to execute under pressure 99% of the time are very rare. The team is coached under three different assistant coaches (at least) - you can have all the individual units looking good as units - but transition play is what makes it all work. ( hence importance of link players)

We were #1 scoring from rebound side in competition till recently - YarrAn absolutely vital to the way we want to play. The importancve of this is that a HB transition straight to F50 is the most killing play - ands we were the best at that via YarrAn ( Laidler is stopper and giver to YarrAn ) - against Saints we kicked to middle from restart - hampson plamed off to Simpson who gave andf got to Eddie and kicked a 48 meter goal. remeber? well this is high risk compared to what YarrAn does - he moves and moevs - giving lead opportunities to Walker/Betts/gartlett - or whoever...sometimes he can even run and bounce and kick from 50 himself to score..ultimate get out strategy.

Fom midfield missing link is 'clean ball extraction' - we have lots of kicking AND running options from here - people call it 'outside run' It has failed because we haven't got enough clean ball extraction - what I call clearances to advantage - the real clearance stat that matters. typical play in MF is Scotland to Simpson down wing or Gibbs to Murphy down wing - or Judd dead ahead to leading mark.

Running hand ball game is exciting but really an out of congestion strategy at best - it is who ends up with ball in hand to kick to advantage that gives you the scoring power that destroys other teams.

YarrAn ( and Laidler) outs have hurt the rebound power of Carlton enormously - YarrAn is pretty much unstoppable because he creates enormous space and time through speed. Defences looking at him running zig zag patterns dont know who to set-up on. We get more space for Eddie and Jeff- which is what these two havent had sicne YarrAn has been out. Defences cant keep up wioth speed of Betts/gartlett/Waljker on leads anyway.On the end of a YarrAn pass all you need is a good kick. Walker is much more potent than Waite doing this. Betts has good % at goal. Jeff can kick 'em better if he has tad more time.

Hampson/Kreuzer in front of goal all they have to do is markl 2/10 and bring to ground the rest.

Also (sorry about length) we havent been as effective containing them in F50 - because sides have been able to set defence up against us and get outs- they have had time. Gartlett ran his legs off against Saints - but they were spread - giving themselves time- because our entries into their F50 were slow and inexact. When we bomb to 50 - we are just floating ball into teh air to a 50/50 at best - defences are designed to manage thsi type of entry. they cant manage teh other type.

YarrAn is a big in for us. We need some midfielders to step up the ability to get clean ball to advantage now - and we are back in business - unstoppable really.

Your point on intensity is about matching others in that part of game which requires grind. ie just stop other team forward progress. This isnt rocket science to achieve. Just teach Robinson/Curnow NOT to get sucide ball out - better to just punch it forward and chase it - like we did against Collingwood. You dont need to get a perfect extraction every clearance- - just do what Sydney do - and keep ball locked in if you cant give it out to advantage. This is teh side of teh game we have to commit to when we need to play it - this is the hardness that ios missing.

 

[Blue since 72]

Blue72

Link guys with speed.......this is the hardness that is missing.

Don't have an issue with the importance of Yarran coming in but surely our plan isn't that reliant on one guy. If it is it's the wrong plan.

Same goes for Carrots being out. If our much vaunted midfield can't handle one good player out of the side we're in big trouble.

While these two and Laidler are important cogs we should be able to keep winning if they're not there.

For me Monday night was about once again (see Bombers game), not dealing with and getting on top of a physical side around the stoppages where we ended up with panicked kicks and handballs and untidy and undisciplined disposal, primarily into our forward 50.

At it's most basic we played the game rushing every disposal. In essense we didn't handle the opposition's physical pressure, either in real time or perceived.

 

[The Coach]

Bit unfair. The best mids in the game get tagged out of a game sooner or later. Been happening to Judd for a few years now.

It is atrocious that we let it happen - taggers are easier targets than shooting hall ducks. Only been involved with elite Metro footballers but they regularly looked after each other. A lot of the time when a Judd or Murph are going for the ball their tag is right on their hammer - you know where he is going to be, you run a little off to the side of Juddy or Murph (and this is all pre-discussed and even practised at training) and you come in and bump his tagger as he thinks he is about to pounce on our man. It is still legitimate - it is called BLOCKING. We never seem to do it - can only remember one time on Monday when Simmo was trying to go to Hayes who was running with Juddy and Simmo put Hayes on his arse.

ps And we are not only talking about Robbo, Scotty etc here, there will be many ops for Juddy to do it for Murph and visa versa. Think Ling, Selwood, Bartel, Kelly

 

[steveo898]

Bit unfair. The best mids in the game get tagged out of a game sooner or later. Been happening to Judd for a few years now.

Hahaha oops! I was ment to reply to a comment regarding Waite not Murphy, My bad!

 

[Peete]

Blue : YarrAn - as previously said (maybe too many words) creates time and space for our forwards - because he runs and carries for so long..opposition is just clueless about where and who he will hit with one of his lace out 40 meter passes...awesome distributor of the ball- and then if the opposition hangs off him? - he runs to the fifty and kicks one himself..

He is worth whatever is required to sign him IMHO

Five: totally agree with what you say - basic team footie you woudl think

btw - how many times have you seen Judd or Murphy put on a hard body hip an shoulder bump or block?

 

[blue gunslinger]

actually judd blocks often esp around bounces in the fwd 50
hard or not it is usually effective as opp often won't run thru him knowing the umps ewatch him

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Guru,

[YOUTUBE]FYv2n-hRsa0&ob=av3n[/YOUTUBE]

enjoy the madness.

It had to happen.

 

[Blue since 72]

It is atrocious that we let it happen - taggers are easier targets than shooting hall ducks. Only been involved with elite Metro footballers but they regularly looked after each other. A lot of the time when a Judd or Murph are going for the ball their tag is right on their hammer - you know where he is going to be, you run a little off to the side of Juddy or Murph (and this is all pre-discussed and even practised at training) and you come in and bump his tagger as he thinks he is about to pounce on our man. It is still legitimate - it is called BLOCKING. We never seem to do it - can only remember one time on Monday when Simmo was trying to go to Hayes who was running with Juddy and Simmo put Hayes on his arse.

ps And we are not only talking about Robbo, Scotty etc here, there will be many ops for Juddy to do it for Murph and visa versa. Think Ling, Selwood, Bartel, Kelly

I have seen a bit of blocking by the boys but Ratts appears to have never been a fan of serious blocking for Judd or anyone else.

When the media have brought it up numerous times over the years re Judd Ratts says 'yeah we could have probably helped him out a bit more' but he never seems to have put an obvious plan in place.

The Eagles used Rowen Jones religiously to block for Judd and the running gag over here after Judd won his first Brownlow was that he should have shared it with Jones.

 

[The_Wookie]

I sometimes wonder if Ratten looks at his midfield and says "blockers? what the hell do you want blockers for"

Remember when Ratten was a best and fairest winning mid? Alongside the likes of Greg Williams, Craig Bradley and Fraser Brown. No one blocked for anyone. You went and got the damn ball with people hanging off you and all sorts of behind the play shenanigans going on. Try telling Williams or Brown they needed Blockers. They didnt.

Inside and outside mids is a crock in my opinion.

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

I sometimes wonder if Ratten looks at his midfield and says "blockers? what the hell do you want blockers for"

Remember when Ratten was a best and fairest winning mid? Alongside the likes of Greg Williams, Craig Bradley and Fraser Brown. No one blocked for anyone. You went and got the damn ball with people hanging off you and all sorts of behind the play shenanigans going on. Try telling Williams or Brown they needed Blockers. They didnt.

Inside and outside mids is a crock in my opinion.

Post of this thread well said Wookie

 

[Duiganator]

This loss still hurts. **** you Carlton.

 

[rampar]

It is still legitimate - it is called BLOCKING. We never seem to do it

They spread looking for an easy receive and super coach stats. Carlton haven't shepherded or blocked for the past 10 years. Most seem happy to accumulate stats (carrazzo excepted).

 

[40yearBLUE]

I sometimes wonder if Ratten looks at his midfield and says "blockers? what the hell do you want blockers for"

Remember when Ratten was a best and fairest winning mid? Alongside the likes of Greg Williams, Craig Bradley and Fraser Brown. No one blocked for anyone. You went and got the damn ball with people hanging off you and all sorts of behind the play shenanigans going on. Try telling Williams or Brown they needed Blockers. They didnt.

Inside and outside mids is a crock in my opinion.

Pretty much agree

Craig Bradley was definitely more adept as an outside mid (I had a Tiger work mate that called him Out-here Bradley).

But you are quite correct, all mids, in fact all players at times have to get their own ball.

But in a perfect world you have runners and link men......aka outside mids. And some players seem more at home in an "in and under" role aka inside mids.

Inside and outside is just part of the new jargon I have been banging on about for a few weeks. Not much new under the sun as they say.