Autopsy Round 9, 2024: Hawthorn v St.Kilda

[ScrappyDo]

I think any other coach would have seen Owens contested work early on and sat him in the middle from day one.

Just a second.
Mitch played forward last year because we got ****ed by injuries, and he did great.
Mitch has said publicly he liked being a forward and Banger has said he gets lost in trafic playing as a mid.
Yet with that said, upon Jack Hayes' return Mitch is playing more midfield time and not going very well at it (at least for the time being).
Where is the disconnect? Coz l don't see one.

 

[Sainter1873]

Our inside 50s are…just…bad. Always looks like we’re behind the defenders. All teams go long inside 50 but I’d like to see more kicks on the lead like Bonner’s kick to Membrey. Be first to the ball from clearances. Something is going amiss with our ‘system’ or whatever it is. We’re badly missing Higgins and Butler.

The midfield is being propped up by Marshall but this really is a double edged sword. He grabs it and hacks it forward, which means our clearances are shallow and poor quality. I wouldn’t mind seeing him try to get a handball to one of the midfielders more often. I saw him ignore a free Sinclair and thump it long inside 50 for a turnover. Can’t have that. Dow and Clark give us something different. Crouch would be handy.

Defence is rock solid. Howard, Wilkie and Battle are a solid key group and Bonner was good. NWM is patchy but will be elite fairly soon. I prefer Sinclair coming out of defence.

The loss stung. Our season is in the balance but do we have the ability to right the ship?

 

[Saintbloke]

I think it would be hard to Justify playing Campbell now there has been a commitment to do a full rebuild and bring in all of the kids we have in such a short period of time in pursuit of rebuilding for the future. I think Campbells selection would draw the harshest of criticism from the media and pundits with regards to sending a confusing message about what direction is the club headed in.

We need to be winning games, it's a pro environment, even if it means playing an old player like Cambell. Kids don't progress very well in a losing environment, and not all kids with potential go on to be good to great players. Having been a Saints supporter for decades, I think the "rebuilding" mantra is a load of cr*p and it gets continually wheeled out to cover poor form. The last coach who got serious about "rebuild" got the flick when he dared mention it.

 

[gringo2011]

Great post, some people can see it, do we want to be the same old saints? Only 2nd year into Rtb and a total overhaul of footy dept and the players will be next, this is a 5 year plan too many people think we under achieving well maybe a little but we definitely over achieved last year

Stavro suggested he thought that we would be challenging in 2025. If we are still rebuilding for the 15th year straight and the fans are meant to buy in… Jesus. This is a hard footy club to follow.

 

[gringo2011]

I think we have a lot more than we’re getting credit for and I actually have some faith in our drafting at present. Add a bag of cash to that and I’m very confident we’re on the right track.

I get worried when teams talk crap and have no idea where their list really sits. All that we’re top 4 and going challenge was delusional and frightening. We haven’t sat on our hands, we’ve drafted well, moved some on, traded and pitched to others. We only need to keep that going and get 1 big free agent over the line and the sun will come out again.

Melbourne were an absolute shambles as we have been and that’s why teams stay trapped on the bottom.

They only people wanting in to the Saints are Rory Lobb types who will get superstar money to take up cap space.

 

[gringo2011]

At least Membrey actually goes up the ground and gets the ball. King just sits in the goal square and doesn't move for the entire game.

He came right up the field yesterday, ignored the open guy running past and bombed it straight to a Hawks defender. I wish he had stayed home in the goal square

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

Just a second.
Mitch played forward last year because we got ****ed by injuries, and he did great.
Mitch has said publicly he liked being a forward and Banger has said he gets lost in trafic playing as a mid.
Yet with that said, upon Jack Hayes' return Mitch is playing more midfield time and not going very well at it (at least for the time being).
Where is the disconnect? Coz l don't see one.

Oh what a guy playing forward and training forward gets lost in traffic in the middle? So strange. Let’s never persist with him there then.
What’s this much more midfield time? The 5 minutes he was in there when the mids started actually looking better.
He has the potential to be a very good contest mid or an average general forward. I know which flame I’d stoke as a coach.

 

[D2D3]

Was at the game. Here are my takes.

Beautiful day in Launceston after some early rain, ground was in great shape with no wind to speak of.

There were more Saints than Hawks Supporters at the game, Ree Smith from the Tasmanian Saints supporters group does a great job

We were flat from the start, the pre game drills were poor compared to a a well drilled Hawthorn

RTB was out coached, the way Hawthorn moved the ball from defence into attack was plain embarrassing

We have no small forwards and it was completely evident. If goals weren’t from King, Battle or Membrey… then they weren’t coming. Critical mistakes under pressure meant we never looked like scoring even from constant forward entries

King has no sense of ball movement whatsoever. Maybe needs to be moved to defence to learn about ball flight and positioning.

NAS brought the stadium to a standstill in the second quarter. For a fleeting moment I thought I was watching Nicky Winmar again

Some poor selections, Henry wasn’t ready and we missed Pou’s forward craft

Not all negative, Battle can play anywhere and I thought Windhager was strong

Hawthorn lead all day and sometimes very comfortably. Scoreboard flattered us, stats also flattered us. Constant switching of play did nothing other than inflate the stats as we couldn’t win important one on ones.

Stats lie, we were beaten resoundingly.

Midfield aside, our sudden lack of small forwards is concerning given when we were playing well it was a strength. Just pick two guys who at minimum can chase and tackle so the ball doesn’t bounce out of our forward line instantly. You don’t want to look at fantasy as anything but it is well known in those circles half backs have field days against us. Surely this is one of the easiest areas to improve our game.

 

[TheNewEnsign]

“Give it time” should probably replace “fortius quo fidelius” as our club motto at this point.

For some reason I just went back and re-read that email from Andrew Bassat from May 2021 that '(we) knew that with our list profile we would need to be patient to be competitive every week against the better sides and that our genuine window would more likely start in 2022 than 2021'.

I wonder what they think of our list profile now...

 

[ScrappyDo]

Members has been a great servant. Love him to bits.

But he is either horribly out of form and needs to be dropped. Or he is finished at AFL level.

Hopefully the first one.

I believe Caminiti has potential and should be in for Membrey soon.

Hammer has played 23 games. We need to persist with him and develop him like Freo have done with Josh Treacy. They persisted despite Treacy not getting much of it because there were signs. The Dockers are getting rewarded for that now as he approaches game 50.

Treacy has played 45 of 75 games (60%) since drafted.
Hammer has played 23 of 31 games (75%) since drafted.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Oh what a guy playing forward and training forward gets lost in traffic in the middle? So strange. Let’s never persist with him there then.
What’s this much more midfield time? The 5 minutes he was in there when the mids started actually looking better.
He has the potential to be a very good contest mid or an average general forward. I know which flame I’d stoke as a coach.

So you're saying playing him forward last year was wrong? I think the rest of the AFL world might disagree with that tbh.

 

[Parkysp]

Thinking about the good games Mitch has played last year and against the Pies this year it has been as a marauding fwd/mid/fwd. That is starting high fwd. Running up into the midfield, getting involved in some bash and crash, taking the ball and driving it forward then following it down deep to help out again. Impacting the play across the ground

We haven't seen that from him basically since the Pies game. Why? We loved him for the freedom he had to express himself in his own way. Where has that gone? I'm not convinced that playing purely forward or purely midfield is the way to go with him. He looks like to me a player in his head trying his hardest to do as coached but lost his best ability...his natural instincts.

 

[thekizzler]

Treacy has played 45 of 75 games (60%) since drafted.
Hammer has played 23 of 31 games (75%) since drafted.

Yeah. What I said isn't a criticism of our development of Caminiti. It's what I want to see going forward. Although I think a lot of Hammer's senior games has been when King is out. How many games they played together?

Treacy kicked 15 goals in 17 games last season. He was persisted with despite kicking less than a goal a game. He has 19 goals in 9 games this season.

I'm not saying Hammer is definitely going to make it (or even that Treacy will be a consistent gun) but he has shown more than Treacy did in his first 23 games. And Treacy is putting together some good football.

It's the path the club should take with Hammer and hopefully he can get there.

 

[Sully111]

So you're saying playing him forward last year was wrong? I think the rest of the AFL world might disagree with that tbh.

Yes

It was wrong.

Fine to fill some holes, but his potential in the main area we are lacking should have been recognised from the start.

I see it as a somewhat wasted year in his development.

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

So you're saying playing him forward last year was wrong? I think the rest of the AFL world might disagree with that tbh.

Playing him forward last year was a necessity. But it was clear to see his best work was in the contest which is what the afl world saw when he was the number one rated player in contested work outside of a centre stoppage.

 

[Ads734]

I think any other coach would have seen Owens contested work early on and sat him in the middle from day one.

He did start in the middle in his first game for us, in his debut season. He then started kicking goals in the twos and then by necessity became a forward and a gun at that. He’s getting some mid time now and will get more and more.

 

[Ads734]

Our inside 50s are…just…bad. Always looks like we’re behind the defenders. All teams go long inside 50 but I’d like to see more kicks on the lead like Bonner’s kick to Membrey. Be first to the ball from clearances. Something is going amiss with our ‘system’ or whatever it is. We’re badly missing Higgins and Butler.

The midfield is being propped up by Marshall but this really is a double edged sword. He grabs it and hacks it forward, which means our clearances are shallow and poor quality. I wouldn’t mind seeing him try to get a handball to one of the midfielders more often. I saw him ignore a free Sinclair and thump it long inside 50 for a turnover. Can’t have that. Dow and Clark give us something different. Crouch would be handy.

Defence is rock solid. Howard, Wilkie and Battle are a solid key group and Bonner was good. NWM is patchy but will be elite fairly soon. I prefer Sinclair coming out of defence.

The loss stung. Our season is in the balance but do we have the ability to right the ship?

Great summary

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Watching yesterday and I think it was wood taking a free kick and of course taking about fifteen seconds making up his mind where to kick as we do. Got to give the opposition plenty of time to set up. We seem to find it impossible to play on.
Anyhow the camera view was from behind him and you could see right down to the whole forward area and there was not one player making a lead. All standing there beside their opponent looking at wood.
Well I suppose that also answers the question why don’t we ever play on quickly. We don’t have anyone on the lead.
Our coaching panel and players would appear to be completely oblivious to this as it’s nothing new. It’s how we play.

 

[Sainter1873]

Thinking about the good games Mitch has played last year and against the Pies this year it has been as a marauding fwd/mid/fwd. That is starting high fwd. Running up into the midfield, getting involved in some bash and crash, taking the ball and driving it forward then following it down deep to help out again. Impacting the play across the ground

We haven't seen that from him basically since the Pies game. Why? We loved him for the freedom he had to express himself in his own way. Where has that gone? I'm not convinced that playing purely forward or purely midfield is the way to go with him. He looks like to me a player in his head trying his hardest to do as coached but lost his best ability...his natural instincts.

Owens to me looks like a pure midfielder forward. Bursts in the middle but primarily playing forward as a crash and bash type. His development looks to have slowed but it might not necessarily be linear for him.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

I wonder if it’s gotten to a stage where coaches are just completely overthinking the hecken game.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Yes

It was wrong.

Fine to fill some holes, but his potential in the main area we are lacking should have been recognised from the start.

I see it as a somewhat wasted year in his development.

Playing him forward last year was a necessity. But it was clear to see his best work was in the contest which is what the afl world saw when he was the number one rated player in contested work outside of a centre stoppage.

So he can't transition over a year or two? FWIW, l agree we want him to be a mid, but l think you're ignoring our realities. If we're having this conversation in 12 months then I'll probably be more critical.

 

[Ads734]

Are nearly at the stage of trying Nas on the ball. It’s what the hawks did with Silk and we desperately need some better delivery into the 50.

Less Steele Marshall, Ross and windy inside 50s and more nas Sincs inside 50s.

I’d love to the competition scoring breakdown from

Rebound 50s (intercepts)
Stoppages clearances
Centre clearances
Turnovers.

Defensively we’re fine. So why can’t we score.

System , personal , mids forwards what is it? We are missing out smalls no doubt.

 

[NoisyMinor]

How many of you are going to get down to training and tell Ross your grievances this week

I thought they all read this forum and that's why we can't be big old meanies with words.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Which looks great but like all of our other forwards he doesn't hold the ball inside 50 or work hard enough without the ball.

Seriously I think the only time you'll ever be happy with the team is when it comprises 23 AA's.

1.9 goals a game puts him pretty much at the top end of small forward outputs for the league this year.

 

[gringo2011]

Good post.

I think any criticism of Ross is met with empassioned defence, hell last week there were people suggesting that even if we didn’t win a game from now until mid next season he should still see out his contract.

It is absolutely possible to say Ross was the best available coach but still have concerns about what he’s doing. I also think it’s fair to be concerned that we’re obviously rebuilding and he’s not done that and his previous stints seemed to wrap up when those teams hit rebuild status (which obviously was for a stack of different reasons, not just that he’s not good at it).

We all mentioned that Ross v2 (or 3) seemed to have modernized his game and coaching style. I’ve got some concerns that both those things were a false dawn. The footy we’re seeing now is VERY much old Ross and when pressure comes people tend to revert to type. Will the pressure that’s coming mean we get cranky control freak Ross back? Time will tell but howling down everyone flagging some issue with “wait and see, Ross knows” is just silly.

Had some Pies supporters over last night and they were saying Lyon is like the last 2 years of Buckley where everything is around defending. It's fine if you are getting rewarded but a dour game plan without wins is extremely demotivating and eventually effort drops away.