Autopsy Round 9, 2024: Hawthorn v St.Kilda

[jwint43]

No - its born of Marshalls inability to think past -

1 - move the ruck out of position

2 - grab the ball

3 - hack kick it forward without looking.

He has NEVER done 1, 2 then handballed to the advantage of a team mate.

Great fantasy player, never been a great ruckman. There are times when his clearance work is extremely effective but it is very predictable. But what do you do? He produces every week and is often one of our better players.

 

[SteeleSaints]

Has the ever been a sporting club that can consistently break your heart like St Kilda. God help their supporters if there is!

 

[moirae42]

I reckon thats Ross's worst presser too.

 

[Jade Buddha]

Thought about this for a while now.
It’s not King
It’s not Bonner
It’s not even our midfield
Its not the plan
It’s not individual skills

Ross has no faith in the group and they know it. He’s a pessimist at heart and hasn’t shown he trusts anyone yet, not even the captain.
The return of the messiah has put all on notice and instead of galvanising it’s marginalised.

Can he pull it together moving forward is the question. Not sure but right now it’s not working and he has to take responsibility for it. He needs the group and currently it appears he doesn’t have them.

 

[SteeleSaints]

I reckon thats Ross's worst presser too.

I am now convinced the guy is nothing more than a 'snake oil' salesman who has duped a lot of people across the country. He is just another fraud sucking our club of $$$ and hope.

In what planet did he believe having so many non physical outside running players in one side would work.

Have we ever had a season when so many good players have gone so far backwards in form?

He has the entire club playing bruise free touch football and not only that it is almost unwatchable. Its definitely the worst and most frustrating brand of footy I've seen from our club play in 50 years of supporting them.

I was previously a solid Lyon believer and thought he was the one to lead us to the holy grail. But our football and game style this year has me convinced the guy is just another in the long list of incompetent clowns we have had coaching our club.

 

[tomjoad]

We've had a leadership vacuum since Rooey & Joey left the club...and that's because they didn't trust anyone beneath them. That's 7 years ago, but we've been a middling to hopeless team since 2011. Mediocrity has been the standard throughout much of guys like Steele, Ross, Membrey's, Webster, and Sinc's career. Mediocre facilities, mediocre coaches, mediocre board. Now, they're all solid to very good players, but that's our senior core and much of our leadership group. Mediocrity is a state of mind, but it's also environmental, it gets a pass...and a few can still be very good within those boundaries, but it never amounts to either leadership or excellence.
The worst thing about mediocrity though is that its corruptive and can damage the energy of what youth and talent brings. It's like a fly hitting it's head upon a glass ceiling hoping to break through to the sky. If you aren't allowed to progress, you will be stifled, lose energy, slow down, and settle.
I think what we're seeing now is a level of professionalism in the coaching and management levels which is showing up the senior and leadership core for what it is. Good, but not great and not perhaps not able to aim higher...not because they can't, but because they simply don't know how.
It could be teething problems i.e. 2nd year blues and a precessional wobble that is necessary. Or it could be that the players don't want the glass ceiling removed because it might mean that the game has passed them by, and they'll have to admit that psychologically they're simply not up to the task.
Something tells me that this is the true year of exploration.
It's going to be an interesting off season, that's for sure.

 

[puntking]

Blaming Ross lol you all are a joke, ask rooey or Monty what they think of RTB! He is no idiot and he knows what needs to be done and will get it done, he is 1 1/2 years into 4 year minimum deal so buckle up, can’t wait for the melts come end of year

 

[austinnn]

We've had a leadership vacuum since Rooey & Joey left the club...and that's because they didn't trust anyone beneath them. That's 7 years ago, but we've been a middling to hopeless team since 2011. Mediocrity has been the standard throughout much of guys like Steele, Ross, Membrey's, Webster, and Sinc's career. They're all solid to very good players, but that's our senior core and much of our leadership group. Mediocrity is a state of mind, and you can be very good at it, but it never amounts to either leadership or excellence.
The worst thing about mediocrity is that it can be corruptive and can damage the energy of what youth and talent brings. It's like a fly hitting it's head upon a glass ceiling hoping to break through to the sky. If you aren't allowed to progress, you will be stifled, lose energy, slow down, and settle.
I think what we're seeing now is a level of professionalism in the coaching and management levels which is showing up the senior and leadership core for what it is. Good, but not great and not professional enough to aim higher...not because they can't, but because they don't know how.
It could be teething problems i.e. 2nd year blues and a precessional wobble that is necessary. Or it could be that the players don't want the glass ceiling removed because it might mean that the game has passed them by, and they'll have to admit that psychologically they're simply not up to the task.
Something tells me that this is the true year of exploration.
It's going to be an interesting off season, that's for sure.

Damn right. Leadership group gonna get all shook up next year, our current leaders are a joke

 

[puntking]

Some folks just don't tune in to the club's vibe and instead push their own agendas. The club has been straight up about how we were fooling ourselves under Ratten and were further from our goals than we realized. Ross came in to rebuild, and we've made the most of our draft picks in both drafts since Ratten.

The club keeps saying we need more talent, like, they've been saying it on repeat. But some fans thought we'd magically be top 4. If you actually listen, the club's been pretty consistent in their message.

 

[beside the seaside]

I’m 5 years where all other clubs have jumped us but our old guys are hitting retirement what then.

Hopefully our current youngsters have become very good players

 

[BrutThough]

Or they aren’t as good as we’d hoped. We ruined King by not keeping someone to let him phase in. Snags is a very uneven player and Butler is cooked.

So every forward goes backwards, so it must be that they all aren't that good?

If it was 1 or 2, then maybe. But when an entire group of players all decline in performance at the same time, it typically indicates that it's a system/game issue impacting them rather than an individual player talent issue.

Also, Butler played 3 games with no preseason and limited preperation due to us not having anyone else and he's suddenly cooked? We are so quick to write off players careers. He'll be fine once he gets some fitness back into him.

 

[Cairnsman]

Not that this will console anyone, however I said from the outset of RLs appointment that he doesn't have the "magic wand",

I kept asking the question,

"what magic trick does he have that no other coach in the history of the game has possessed"?

I tried to explain that it wasn't a criticism of Ross personally, and repeatedly said I am a Ross fan, he is still the best coach for the job IMO.

The point I was making was the biggest challenge our club will always face is the club itself and overcoming itself and its 150 year history.

A coach can't fix our 150 year problem.

Magic isn't real and coaches don't possess magic wands that can do magic tricks.

This current regime needs to stay the coarse for around 10 years, that includes from Basset down to the trainers.

We are in a hard rebuild and it will take time, this regime needs to get a rebuilt list to the critical mass of 50-100 game average and see what they can do.

If they fail then, sack the lot of em, and start again.

But in the mean time, buckle up and get used to the bottom 4 for a few years.

 

[tomjoad]

Blaming Ross lol you all are a joke, ask rooey or Monty what they think of RTB! He is no idiot and he knows what needs to be done and will get it done, he is 1 1/2 years into 4 year minimum deal so buckle up, can’t wait for the melts come end of year

The whole Ross Lyon effect may not necessarily work either, but at least there's something resembling managerial professionalism. Whether it trickles down to the playing group...we won't know until next year, if it stops the rot from sinking deeper into the playing group, then its an incremental win.
I'm hoping to see the young core improve in the back half of the year...also hope to see a couple more debuts.
Not holding my breath for much else.

 

[Saintbloke]

Lyon is Basset's folly, make no bones about it- it was his Christmas present to himself.

I would like to give three cheers to our defence, who not only have to defend, but have to do it twice as hard due to the rubbish systems in place where the midfield and forwards apply little or no pressure and allow the ball to leak out regularly, which in turn puts extra pressure on the backline.

 

[gringo2011]

The system is definitely lacking, we’re playing like the Richo/Ratten era, basically still have players from that era + new kids.. When you do that for 5-10 years, maybe your skills/game instinct are just fixed.. once you become a fumbly and headless chook, difficult to coach that our..

Exactly, in a better team with a better midfield, Bonner is a jet.

Our midfield is a complete mess.. Trying to paper over the cracks.. Marshall can’t ruck, grabbing the ball from the ruck and hack kick forward is not high percentage, ruck should either bring the football to advantage of a team mate or win the ball then handball to a midfield..

Been saying that for a long time. We don't have a strong clearance mid and then we have a ruck that doesn't direct his tap work to advantage. Crouch helps even it up but we concede a lot of clearance. Richmond did too but their commitment to win it back through pressure and quality across the backline made it a weapon.

For a blue collar pressure side with quick players we look really half arsed and slow when we don't have the ball. Hastie and Garcia stand out because they go at 100%.

 

[gringo2011]

Thought about this for a while now.
It’s not King
It’s not Bonner
It’s not even our midfield
Its not the plan
It’s not individual skills

Ross has no faith in the group and they know it. He’s a pessimist at heart and hasn’t shown he trusts anyone yet, not even the captain.
The return of the messiah has put all on notice and instead of galvanising it’s marginalised.

Can he pull it together moving forward is the question. Not sure but right now it’s not working and he has to take responsibility for it. He needs the group and currently it appears he doesn’t have them.

That was Richo's downfall too. Bevo is the opposite where he's a player empowerment coach. It doesn't always work but at least when they get it right it's fun to watch. I can't even say watching our wins has been enjoyable under Lyon. Usually it's just a painful grind and then fall over the line under pressure. No pretty skills, no exciting piling on of goals etc.

I was a fan of Lyon back because we were on a road to nowhere, now we are on a path but it looks like a ticket on a bus to Gaza.

 

[Saintbloke]

Another uninspiring, uninformative presser from a man who would clearly like to be somewhere else..not unlike Blight when he was dragged out of retirement.

 

[Saint Kidding]

How old are you?

"Just fold us and put us 50-58 year olds out of our misery. We’re a rabble"

Put it this way: You don't speak for me.

I do not need to be put out of my misery.

This hits me harder than most of the supporters in this age group. Because most of them will have hope that things will pick up in the next 5, 10 or even twenty years. On the other hand, I am on borrowed time. I know that I will be lucky if I make it though to the finals next year. I just want and need to enjoy my footy today.

So I do what I need to do to pick myself up and get ready to go again. I have still have people who rely on me rely on me and bills to pay. Life is not a box of chocolates with the treatments and side-effects. I just want to enjoy my team playing well on the weekends for as long as I can make that last. Pi$$weak dummy spits are a luxury I refuse to indulge in. I thought GenX were made from tougher stuff.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Blaming Ross lol you all are a joke, ask rooey or Monty what they think of RTB! He is no idiot and he knows what needs to be done and will get it done, he is 1 1/2 years into 4 year minimum deal so buckle up, can’t wait for the melts come end of year

Ross needs to accept some blame for the performances this year.

We will always struggle to win games by kicking 5 or less goals in the first half of a game. Most of our scoring happens in the 2nd half when eventually he figures out we aren't attacking enough and then changes things around and encourages the players to play with a bit more freedom.

A coach has to believe what they are saying is the best way but sometimes its simply isn't - perhaps there's too may hand picked assistant coaches who perhaps aren't game enough to rock the boat?

Anybody who thinks our midfield and forward set ups are up to scratch obviously hasn't been watching the games.

 

[beside the seaside]

That was Richo's downfall too. Bevo is the opposite where he's a player empowerment coach. It doesn't always work but at least when they get it right it's fun to watch. I can't even say watching our wins has been enjoyable under Lyon. Usually it's just a painful grind and then fall over the line under pressure. No pretty skills, no exciting piling on of goals etc.

I was a fan of Lyon back because we were on a road to nowhere, now we are on a path but it looks like a ticket on a bus to Gaza.

Ten games ago we were playing in an elimination final. Seven games ago we were 1-1 having just beaten the reining premiers.

You really don't get much time before the fans turn on you do you haha.

 

[gringo2011]

So every forward goes backwards, so it must be that they all aren't that good?

If it was 1 or 2, then maybe. But when an entire group of players all decline in performance at the same time, it typically indicates that it's a system/game issue impacting them rather than an individual player talent issue.

Also, Butler played 3 games with no preseason and limited preperation due to us not having anyone else and he's suddenly cooked? We are so quick to write off players careers. He'll be fine once he gets some fitness back into him.

King was potential never a star. We just hoped that he'd match the hype. Guys like Rozee are already absolute elite level players. We are still hoping he'll get back to kicking 2 goals a game like he did 2 years ago. Sometimes your spearhead turns out to be a curtain-rod.

Snags is quite good at scoring but quite s**t at consistency and not good at the defensive side of his game. Butler is a guy cut from Richmond's list to bring through kids.

Of course a better system would help because there is nothing obvious about what we are doing right now and we aren't maximising what we have. The best we played under Lyon was with Hammer and Cordy as our KPFs and a better delivery.

Under Ratts we had a good dump ball on King and have Butler out the back but as soon as others worked it out it became a liability.

Butler has bone on bone in his ankle according to rumours.

 

[gringo2011]

Blaming Ross lol you all are a joke, ask rooey or Monty what they think of RTB! He is no idiot and he knows what needs to be done and will get it done, he is 1 1/2 years into 4 year minimum deal so buckle up, can’t wait for the melts come end of year

He was a great coach 14 years ago. He's looking very dated right now. Perhaps we need to remove all his assistants and get some talent into the coaching team then because it's horrendous at the moment.

He's not making it through 2025 if he doesn't turn this around. North Melbourne have more hope for the future than what he's providing. He's created a new way to live in perpetual mediocrity.

 

[Saintbloke]

It' very obvious that Lyon's game has been worked out by opposition coaches now, and once it is broken down, we will never have the system to kick a reasonable score. We saw yesterday that Lyon swung players around trying get a plan B working, but it's not there.

 

[Sully111]

King was potential never a star. We just hoped that he'd match the hype. Guys like Rozee are already absolute elite level players. We are still hoping he'll get back to kicking 2 goals a game like he did 2 years ago. Sometimes your spearhead turns out to be a curtain-rod.

Snags is quite good at scoring but quite s**t at consistency and not good at the defensive side of his game. Butler is a guy cut from Richmond's list to bring through kids.

Of course a better system would help because there is nothing obvious about what we are doing right now and we aren't maximising what we have. The best we played under Lyon was with Hammer and Cordy as our KPFs and a better delivery.

Under Ratts we had a good dump ball on King and have Butler out the back but as soon as others worked it out it became a liability.

Butler has bone on bone in his ankle according to rumours.

Disagree on snags

I don't think he gets the credit he deserves here. Actually possesses some footy smarts.

 

[t_94]

What this year so far has shown us is that we don't really have a clear path. Players brought in add to a position that we have players for. Hb flankers and wingers.
Don't get me wrong I love Darcy. Reckon he is easily our best pick in 5 years.
But we have now plenty of wingers and hb flankers but not enough spots. But we play them all any way.
Paton
Nas
Hill
Sincs
Bonner
Darcy
Hastie
Wood

The argument isn't whether Bonner should be in the team. The argument should be, is having him as that 'qb' role stopping Sincs from having the best impact he can?

Paton and Bonner won’t be part of the core moving forward. Shame for Paton as he was great before he broke his leg.
Sinclair close to 30 and Wood already 30.