We're not slow - we never do it. We're determined to win being pure. I'd rather just win with ducking and throwing and all of the other pushing the line stuff it seems every successful team does.
Autopsy Round 9, 2024: Hawthorn v St.Kilda
- Thread starter Hubnester
- Start date
- Tagged users None
- Status
We're not slow - we never do it. We're determined to win being pure. I'd rather just win with ducking and throwing and all of the other pushing the line stuff it seems every successful team does.
gringo2011
Premium Platinum
What a load of shit. We have been poor at list management and drafting. We should have a bulk of guys one that middle of the age bracket. We have Snags, King, Henry and Battle in that 22 to 25 age bracket that are absolute best 22. Everyone else is a journey man or fringe type.
We traded lots of guys that should be in the side and threw away the compensation.
dudeintheswamp
Club Legend
- Apr 16, 2022
- 1,684
- 3,836
- AFL Club
- St Kilda
Good teams find a way to win.
We are not a good team.
We are not a good team.
On to my thoughts, which are more high level this week.
I'm still not in the "go to the draft" camp. Why? Because based on all available evidence, we could draft the toughest, most skilful, smartest footballer ever available to draft and in three years he'd be fumbling, kicking the ball inside 50 to the defender's advantage, and giving away silly free kicks.
The problem is cultural (and I don't mean 1980s St Kilda disco culture) and organisational.
We've never been a club ruthlessly committed to success. Remember in 2009 when Matthew Lloyd almost killed Brad Sewell? He saw his team's season petering away, and despite the realisation that it would probably mean the literal end of his own career, he did what he thought was necessary to win the game.
Now that is an extreme example and I'm not advocating deliberate premeditated violence. But I've never seen a single quality St Kilda player (so I'm excluding Lazar Vidovic) who would have been prepared to do something like that.
At some stage, the people at the club (and I mean all of the football department, players and coaches alike) need to accept the responsibility of success. Not the easy way out of going to the draft because the answer currently lays outside the club. Not looking to the injury list to see who will make a difference. I'm sick of the abrogation of responsibility. What's the difference between failing like we are now (and have always been except for one season) and failing greatly? The result is the same. Stop protecting yourself and dare. It's the reason I don't criticise players for trying an ambitious kick or trying to break a tackle.
Other scattered thoughts:
I'm still not in the "go to the draft" camp. Why? Because based on all available evidence, we could draft the toughest, most skilful, smartest footballer ever available to draft and in three years he'd be fumbling, kicking the ball inside 50 to the defender's advantage, and giving away silly free kicks.
The problem is cultural (and I don't mean 1980s St Kilda disco culture) and organisational.
We've never been a club ruthlessly committed to success. Remember in 2009 when Matthew Lloyd almost killed Brad Sewell? He saw his team's season petering away, and despite the realisation that it would probably mean the literal end of his own career, he did what he thought was necessary to win the game.
Now that is an extreme example and I'm not advocating deliberate premeditated violence. But I've never seen a single quality St Kilda player (so I'm excluding Lazar Vidovic) who would have been prepared to do something like that.
At some stage, the people at the club (and I mean all of the football department, players and coaches alike) need to accept the responsibility of success. Not the easy way out of going to the draft because the answer currently lays outside the club. Not looking to the injury list to see who will make a difference. I'm sick of the abrogation of responsibility. What's the difference between failing like we are now (and have always been except for one season) and failing greatly? The result is the same. Stop protecting yourself and dare. It's the reason I don't criticise players for trying an ambitious kick or trying to break a tackle.
Other scattered thoughts:
- 30 disposals, only 3 clangers, 2 goal assists (on a day we kicked only 7 goals): my Bonner bet stands. Barring injury he stays in the side, and you are Churchill's definition of a fanatic if you think otherwise
- plenty around here saying "Get Owens into the middle", but when was the last time Owens played any sort of meaningful last quarter in a game? He simply isn't fit enough to play midfield, and may never have the aerobic capacity to do so.
- I would humbly request any "trade Marshall" talk please include what the replacement looks like.
- the brutal selection call this week would be to drop Seb Ross, who was practically unsighted on Saturday. But leadership group members aren't generally on short selection leashes.
- Goals kicked in this match: King 2, Owens 2, Battle 2, Membrey 1. I think we miss Higgins and Butler.
- Hugo Garcia kicks that goal in the third quarter if he is wearing any other AFL jumper.
I was delighted to see a few close in throws out of packs by us. I reckon teams get away with more than they get pinged for so use the Cripps approved method of disposal.
Get it right.
They push in the back , play on.
We push in the back, free kick.
Happens time and time again.
We have to be pure because they like nothing more than throwing a dodgy free to our opponent.
- Jun 2, 2012
- 2,096
- 5,607
- AFL Club
- St Kilda
The gameplan is a huge issue.
50 seconds to go in game, 5 points down and we are switching the play not once .... TWICE.
This is completely insane, go down the guts ... try to win the game. It was like we were trying to hang on to a 5 point honourable loss.
Ridiculous.
phantom13
Moderator
- Moderator
- #658
Its kind of been done to death but the issue with Bonner isnt his form, hes playing well, its that if were doing this rebuild so many are talking about then getting into the squad should have been purely for depth and his spot should be going to a kid. It probably shows where we are at that not only is he getting a game but hes retaining his spot.
So is the gameplan poor, demonstrated by this situation?
Or were the players not executing the gameplan, demonstrated by this situation?
I understand that aspect although I don't necessarily agree with the logic.
Riley Bonner is one day younger than Jack Hayes. Absolutely no one is making the "play the kids" point about Hayes. Age is age is age. If Bonner is taking a spot off a kid (Schoenmaker I presume), then so is Jack Hayes (Isaac Keeler).
Agree with most of what you say.
On the bolded part though I have a different take. I think he's fit enough, he covered the most distance of anyone on the ground earlier in the year against Richmond (over 15kms) he can run just fine.
Its just that he's not that good at reading the play yet.
And yes he is getting thrown in the middle at various times, people don't seem to see it because he doesn't have much impact and in their eyes he would get 30 touches every week if "Only Ross would play him in his natural position"
sammm
Premium Platinum
im not reading this autopsy, but i came here on this thread to say, that im disappointed . very disappointed.
How old is Bonner? He's only 26 or so right.
We're already blooding a lot of kids, we can't play them all.. SO for me he's earning his spot and should keep playing until such case where there is someone better or we are playing less kids.
It's as if they are told to play to a specific plan for the first half and then things are altered at half time.
But the problem with that is that they still second guess themselves and don't take the best option.
Difference between our first 10 rounds last year and the first 9 this year was a seeming freedom we had last year.
It was a go and play boys.
This year its strong on plans and strategies and our guys are struggling. Give them a straight forward plan.
I'm finding more enjoyment watching other games because when the ball goes into the forward lines, something generally happens.
Kicking 10 goals a game is not bloody enjoyable.
phantom13
Moderator
- Moderator
- #665
Fair, at least someone seems to actually understand the logic. I would note Forward/Ruck versus Loose Backman is substantially different though. We risk seriously injuring or destroying Keeler, thats not the case for Schoey or someone else loose across half back.
27, but again, fair point. I think if were gonna lose to ****ing Hawthorn then we may as well play all the kids.
Arguably the same sort of debate could occur around:
- Jack Hayes- why not play Caminiti ahead of him
- Dan Butler (when he's fit)- play Henry and Phillipou (although obvs Poo has been terribly out of sorts this year)
But I agree with you- we're playing loads of kids. We've consistently played 6 or 7 aged 21 or under. Few AFL teams would exceed that.
The problem with St Kilda's list is we just don't have many quality players in the up-and-coming age bracket of 22-25. We have some players in their absolute primes (Wilkie and Marshall, both 28), loads of veterans 29+ (Sinclair, Membrey, Ross, Hill, Webster, Crouch, Wood). And loads of kids.
But not enough in that bracket of "experienced and proven but still improving". This bodes poorly for future years.
Unfortunately I can foresee St Kilda remaining in "no mans land" for another 5+ years. We're becoming the new Essendon. Because as the <21 brigade matures into consistent, quality players in their mid 20's, that will coincide with the decline and retirements of those 8 or 10 quality players currently aged 28+.
You can add Jack Billings to the list.
Well, I disagree.
For the team that went to Lonny and got whacked, I’d have picked,
Acres
Gresham
Hind
I would have found spots for them - and may be even JB!
But at some stage, some gun will go to Essendon because they get to play ANZAC day and they'll get looked after by the coterie groups. So we probably won't be lucky enough to be the new Essendon.
There is no external way out of this. The people who are currently at the club have to solve this and now.
- Jun 2, 2012
- 2,096
- 5,607
- AFL Club
- St Kilda
We were switching play all day, the number of times I'm not sure but we rarely went down the centre.
Pretty tough for any tall forward to mark and kick goals hemmed up against the boundary.
The last play just showed how ineffective this strategy is and was, King was made to position against the boundary... no area to lead into ... no space to move. NAS's hesitation with a few seconds to go made it even worse.
I was literally 5 metres away from King at this stage in the Northern Stand. He had no chance of pulling down that mark once all the defenders arrived and would have been a pretty tough kick to win anyway.
So are they being coached that way or are they ignoring the coaches' instructions?
- May 2, 2017
- 4,381
- 12,038
- AFL Club
- St Kilda
Owens isn’t fit enough now is it? Except that he’s been the top for total distance travelled in a couple games and consistently up there in hardest working in attack.
Face it it’s a lot of rubbish and we are sick of the different excuses.
- Jun 2, 2012
- 2,096
- 5,607
- AFL Club
- St Kilda
it's obliviously a coaching decision to use the boundaries to move the ball and not the corridor.
Whether RTB would have instructed them to go down the centre in the last minute, I don't have that information.
Maybe that is what he was alluding to in the post match press release.
This would have to be an onfield leadership situation in the last couple of minutes as coaches have no influence at that time.
I just meant purely following their footsteps of being a middle rung team. Not rebuilding but not contending. Just making up the numbers without a clear path or plan towards the next premiership.
Essendon since 2007: 12th, 12th, 8th, 14th, 8th, 11th, 9th, 7th, 15th, 18th (supplements year), 7th, 11th, 8th, 13th, 8th, 15th, 11th
St Kilda is following suit, about 10 years behind. Since 2015: 14th, 9th, 11th, 16th, 14th, 6th, 10th, 10th, 6th
Essendon 2007- 2023 and St Kilda 2015 - 2023 are in the same boat: Not a premiership contender. But clearly better than the bottom teams.
St Kilda had an "annus horribilis" in 2018 and 2019 with Roberton's heart issue, retirements of Riewoldt and Montagna (end 2017), Jack Steven's injuries and departure, a sorry end to McCartin's concussion dramas, Billy Longer and Koby Stevens similar, Josh Bruce with a season-ending injury in 18. Then we recovered with a sugar hit in 2020 after adding Ryder, Howard, Hill, Butler and Jones.
But at no stage in the past 7 or 8 years have we looked a serious premiership threat. Nor have we been anywhere near the bottom.
If forced to make a prediction, I'd say it's looking like we'll continue that trend for many more years. Thus becoming the next Essendon who have been doing it almost two decades!
The team is not coached to end game scenarios during the week.
You only have to go as far back as preseason where there were clubs in scratch matches playing 'fantasy scoreboard' situations, where each club had to claw back a lead, or defend one.
We are not in that space. At this point it's wasted energy unless we are having a real tilt at the top.
You only have to go as far back as preseason where there were clubs in scratch matches playing 'fantasy scoreboard' situations, where each club had to claw back a lead, or defend one.
We are not in that space. At this point it's wasted energy unless we are having a real tilt at the top.
The 2018-2021 top-up mentality got us into this mess. Trying to incrementally build a team with outsiders, no group of youngsters coming through at the same time pushing each other.
We had a team of journeymen. Jacks of all trades (and a lot of Jacks!).
We have now built a cohort of young players who will need to work together to become the core of our club. I would argue they're already most of the way there.
Expect on field leadership change next year, the handover to the new guard.
There is no 'rebuild' only 'build'. If we are not constantly building towards the next flag we are not going anywhere.
- Status
