Autopsy Round 9, 2024: Hawthorn v St.Kilda

[Ricmel]

Get it right.

They push in the back , play on.
We push in the back, free kick.

Yep. 2024 feels like 1974,1975,1976,1977,1978,1979,1980,1981,1982,1983,1984,1985,1986,1987,1988,1989,1990,1994,1995,1996,1999,2000,2001,2002,2003,2012,2013,2014,2015,2016,2017,2018,2019,2020,2022.

Those missed push in the backs have really destroyed our last half century. Or maybe I can only see the wet lettuce and not the bazooka.

 

[Ricmel]

We have now built a cohort of young players who will need to work together to become the core of our club. I would argue they're already most of the way there.

Who would you say are our super youngsters? If I asked this question in the main forums my guess would be,

• NWM
• Likely Wilson will get there.
• Let's throw in King cos he is 200+

My guess is it would be the shortest list of coming at you youngsters in the AFL.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

The gameplan is a huge issue.

50 seconds to go in game, 5 points down and we are switching the play not once .... TWICE.

This is completely insane, go down the guts ... try to win the game. It was like we were trying to hang on to a 5 point honourable loss.

Ridiculous.

Especially when we switch and procrastinate for 15 seconds because we are either unaware or there are no leads.
Switching won’t work for us until we can catch up.

 

[CaptainRisky]

Yep. 2024 feels like 1974,1975,1976,1977,1978,1979,1980,1981,1982,1983,1984,1985,1986,1987,1988,1989,1990,1994,1995,1996,1999,2000,2001,2002,2003,2012,2013,2014,2015,2016,2017,2018,2019,2020,2022.

Those missed push in the backs have really destroyed our last half century. Or maybe I can only see the wet lettuce and not the bazooka.

Correct mate , the amount of moaning about umps on here is off the charts , its always poor Saints , Good teams make their own luck

 

[Saintos The ITK]

it's obliviously a coaching decision to use the boundaries to move the ball and not the corridor.

Whether RTB would have instructed them to go down the centre in the last minute, I don't have that information.

Maybe that is what he was alluding to in the post match press release.

This would have to be an onfield leadership situation in the last couple of minutes as coaches have no influence at that time.

Which is why we need a better captain. Someone who has the nous to override the coach in certain situations.

 

[Ricmel]

Especially when we switch and procrastinate for 15 seconds because we are either unaware or there are no leads.
Switching won’t work for us until we can catch up.

Unfortunately it seems RTB cannot change his spots. He has used the classic Muhammad Ali roper doper (young members look it up) his entire coaching career. First 3 quarters minimize damage, stay within 2 goals, conserve energy, throw everything into the last 20 minutes. Things is, everyone in AFL has worked this out. Every coach knows to go defensive against RTB in the last 20 minutes.

 

[gringo2011]

On to my thoughts, which are more high level this week.

I'm still not in the "go to the draft" camp. Why? Because based on all available evidence, we could draft the toughest, most skilful, smartest footballer ever available to draft and in three years he'd be fumbling, kicking the ball inside 50 to the defender's advantage, and giving away silly free kicks.

The problem is cultural (and I don't mean 1980s St Kilda disco culture) and organisational.

We've never been a club ruthlessly committed to success. Remember in 2009 when Matthew Lloyd almost killed Brad Sewell? He saw his team's season petering away, and despite the realisation that it would probably mean the literal end of his own career, he did what he thought was necessary to win the game.

Now that is an extreme example and I'm not advocating deliberate premeditated violence. But I've never seen a single quality St Kilda player (so I'm excluding Lazar Vidovic) who would have been prepared to do something like that.

At some stage, the people at the club (and I mean all of the football department, players and coaches alike) need to accept the responsibility of success. Not the easy way out of going to the draft because the answer currently lays outside the club. Not looking to the injury list to see who will make a difference. I'm sick of the abrogation of responsibility. What's the difference between failing like we are now (and have always been except for one season) and failing greatly? The result is the same. Stop protecting yourself and dare. It's the reason I don't criticise players for trying an ambitious kick or trying to break a tackle.

Other scattered thoughts:

• 30 disposals, only 3 clangers, 2 goal assists (on a day we kicked only 7 goals): my Bonner bet stands. Barring injury he stays in the side, and you are Churchill's definition of a fanatic if you think otherwise
• plenty around here saying "Get Owens into the middle", but when was the last time Owens played any sort of meaningful last quarter in a game? He simply isn't fit enough to play midfield, and may never have the aerobic capacity to do so.
• I would humbly request any "trade Marshall" talk please include what the replacement looks like.
• the brutal selection call this week would be to drop Seb Ross, who was practically unsighted on Saturday. But leadership group members aren't generally on short selection leashes.
• Goals kicked in this match: King 2, Owens 2, Battle 2, Membrey 1. I think we miss Higgins and Butler.
• Hugo Garcia kicks that goal in the third quarter if he is wearing any other AFL jumper.

Bonner had one absolutely terrible game that put everyone off him but he'd be about 7th in our B and F right now.

We need to balance trading and drafting like all lists. Essendon have improved but getting talent from

Its kind of been done to death but the issue with Bonner isnt his form, hes playing well, its that if were doing this rebuild so many are talking about then getting into the squad should have been purely for depth and his spot should be going to a kid. It probably shows where we are at that not only is he getting a game but hes retaining his spot.

We are trying to stay competitive while rebuilding so need some GOP temporary depth. The real issue is playing a brand that will set in with the kids and it’s negative and horrible to watch.

 

[phantom13]

Bonner had one absolutely terrible game that put everyone off him but he'd be about 7th in our B and F right now.

We need to balance trading and drafting like all lists. Essendon have improved but getting talent from


We are trying to stay competitive while rebuilding so need some GOP temporary depth. The real issue is playing a brand that will set in with the kids and it’s negative and horrible to watch.

trying and failing.

 

[gringo2011]

You can add Jack Billings to the list.

Well, I disagree.
For the team that went to Lonny and got whacked, I’d have picked,
Acres
Gresham
Hind

I would have found spots for them - and may be even JB!

They are all getting games in better sides than ours and we got **** all return for any of them. Dons traded Saad and replaced him with Hind for a pick that we didn’t even use and neither would they. Good business. We pay Billings to be at Melbourne and Acres we threw away. They cost 2 first round picks. That’s atrocious list management.

 

[gringo2011]

trying and failing.

Injury killed any chance of that and now a malaise has set in. We are probably competitive with a full list. Unfortunately a lot look cooked so we won’t improve next year. Probably further away than under Ratts all of a sudden. A few list management gambles fell face down. A lot of players have gone backwards. Training kids in losing sides is usually a negative so really disappointing season.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Fair, at least someone seems to actually understand the logic. I would note Forward/Ruck versus Loose Backman is substantially different though. We risk seriously injuring or destroying Keeler, thats not the case for Schoey or someone else loose across half back.

27, but again, fair point. I think if were gonna lose to ******* Hawthorn then we may as well play all the kids.

Someone was going to lose to the Hawks.
WHy is it always us.

 

[phantom13]

Someone was going to lose to the Hawks.
WHy is it always us.

Short version - Were pretty shit

Long version - Our gameplan is pretty shit and our execution of it is equally shit.

 

[Saints43]

Someone was going to lose to the Hawks.
WHy is it always us.

They won the week before as well.

 

[gringo2011]

Fair, at least someone seems to actually understand the logic. I would note Forward/Ruck versus Loose Backman is substantially different though. We risk seriously injuring or destroying Keeler, thats not the case for Schoey or someone else loose across half back.

27, but again, fair point. I think if were gonna lose to ******* Hawthorn then we may as well play all the kids.

That's true but we want to teach them to be competitive at least. Losing by 100 points ruins them. Probably need to rest anyone injured or out of form. No free spots for anyone and drag kids if they coast even. Try some new positional moves. Battle forward was probably the most positive thing we found on the weekend.

Perhaps chuck Owens on ball, Ari forward or play Stocker on ball for a few games straight. Not convinced on him back. He's an iffy kick at times.

I reckon Pou got more out of playing at Sandy than out of his last 3 AFL games. Sometimes keeping the kids down is better than smashing them.

Keeler and Jones both looked okay in reserve. If we have injury or form drops, bring them in.

 

[phantom13]

They won the week before as well.

And Bevo was gonna get sacked for it too.

 

[phantom13]

That's true but we want to teach them to be competitive at least. Losing by 100 points ruins them. Probably need to rest anyone injured or out of form. No free spots for anyone and drag kids if they coast even. Try some new positional moves. Battle forward was probably the most positive thing we found on the weekend.

Perhaps chuck Owens on ball, Ari forward or play Stocker on ball for a few games straight. Not convinced on him back. He's an iffy kick at times.

I reckon Pou got more out of playing at Sandy than out of his last 3 AFL games. Sometimes keeping the kids down is better than smashing them.

Keeler and Jones both looked okay in reserve. If we have injury or form drops, bring them in.

I agree with that but as continually gets pointed out, Ross style means we dont lose by 100 points.

You reckon Bonner for Arie yesterday makes 16 goals of difference?

I get its a balance and i wish id never said anything about Bonner who is probably in our top 10 BnF right now but hes kind of the point to me. He plays a position damn near any footballer can play and generally play pretty well and we grabbed him in the pre season in lieu of just using someone we already have. Youve said it numerous times we draft flankers and wingers but then we also recruit 26 year old flankers and wingers too.

Anyway, seasons ****ed so do whatever at this point, makes no difference really.

 

[SaintyMcSaintface]

Short version - Were pretty s**t

Long version - Our gameplan is pretty s**t and our execution of it is equally s**t.

Just insane that our average score this year is lower than last year when we had a makeshift forward line and no King and Membrey for most of it

 

[gringo2011]

Short version - Were pretty s**t

Long version - Our gameplan is pretty s**t and our execution of it is equally s**t.

That's the number one most concerning thing. If you see the players are a bit below the level but are trying their arses off and the game plan and structure is being drilled, you are happy to accept where we are at.

Hard to see anything overly positive right now. Game plan sucks, kids going backwards, effort and standards slipping etc.

 

[gringo2011]

I agree with that but as continually gets pointed out, Ross style means we dont lose by 100 points.

You reckon Bonner for Arie yesterday makes 16 goals of difference?

I get its a balance and i wish id never said anything about Bonner who is probably in our top 10 BnF right now but hes kind of the point to me. He plays a position damn near any footballer can play and generally play pretty well and we grabbed him in the pre season in lieu of just using someone we already have. Youve said it numerous times we draft flankers and wingers but then we also recruit 26 year old flankers and wingers too.

Anyway, seasons ****ed so do whatever at this point, makes no difference really.

Ari was concussed so couldn't play.

 

[phantom13]

Ari was concussed so couldn't play.

Someone could have ****ing told me that before i wasted 2 days arguing he should have played.

 

[PJays]

Who would you say are our super youngsters?

Well, exactly 12 months ago Owens had been possibly St Kilda's best player to this point in the season, and Phillipou was looking like a future star.

This year, not so.

King, to me, has always looked like a future Coleman Medallist. Not this year!

I guess the lesson is, you just don't know. The jury remains out on AFL players until they perform consistently for a couple of years.

Others:

NWM was best on ground when we defeated the reigning premiers. He's got "something". Call it class. Poise.

Wilson great runner, real potential.

Henry impressed me in the first 2 rounds.

Windhager is developing, slowly but surely.

Caminiti works hard, good athlete, I'd prefer he was in the team over Hayes.

 

[thekizzler]

Seems we got pinged with a couple of 50s this weekend for actions that happen literally a dozen times a game.

Tonight I remembered that we can watch players possessions on the AFL app. There was a moment in the last that wasn't really mentioned by anyone when Steele was lining up for goal, I thought I'd rewatch it.

I think the rule isn't great but the 'stand rule' still exists right? I'm referring to Jack Steele, 12:52 mark of the last quarter. With my interpretation of that rule, that's a 50m penalty every day of the week isn't it?

Don't get me wrong, we got the result we deserved so I'm not blaming anyone but ourselves. It just seems we really don't get those contentious calls, almost ever.

One thing that has frustrated me this season is players not knowing their own kicking distance.

That Steele shot was one example. We all knew he didn't have the distance in him. Especially in variable conditions. Fell short.

Also, Membrey had a shot from 55 that he had to hook to just get the journey. I can't remember last time he dobbed a goal from outside 50 on a set shot.

I know this is only two examples but it's happened quite a few times this season. More than other teams IMO.

 

[phantom13]

One thing that has frustrated me this season is players not knowing their own kicking distance.

That Steele shot was one example. We all knew he didn't have the distance in him. Especially in variable conditions. Fell short.

Also, Membrey had a shot from 55 that he had to hook to just get the journey. I can't remember last time he dobbed a goal from outside 50 on a set shot.

I know this is only two examples but it's happened quite a few times this season. More than other teams IMO.

Our goalkicking as a whole thing is ****ing deplorable. King and Higgins have horribly suspect techniques. Owens looks like hes never actually kicked a footy before.

 

[gringo2011]

I agree with that but as continually gets pointed out, Ross style means we dont lose by 100 points.

You reckon Bonner for Arie yesterday makes 16 goals of difference?

I get its a balance and i wish id never said anything about Bonner who is probably in our top 10 BnF right now but hes kind of the point to me. He plays a position damn near any footballer can play and generally play pretty well and we grabbed him in the pre season in lieu of just using someone we already have. Youve said it numerous times we draft flankers and wingers but then we also recruit 26 year old flankers and wingers too.

Anyway, seasons ****ed so do whatever at this point, makes no difference really.

It's the most St Kilda think ever. Get a guy as break glass emergency depth and he out performs half our established players. I can't understand why we can't find and develop talent. Even with a better set up our ability to find players and turn them into top level players sucks.

 

[littlecreatures]

it's obliviously a coaching decision to use the boundaries to move the ball and not the corridor.

Whether RTB would have instructed them to go down the centre in the last minute, I don't have that information.

Maybe that is what he was alluding to in the post match press release.

This would have to be an onfield leadership situation in the last couple of minutes as coaches have no influence at that time.

I suspect it’s a by product of how much goals have been leaked from scores from turnovers this year, when exiting D50. We are top 3 for turnovers per game and training to transition the ball quickly has probably led to this.

I think this playing group just lacks a bit of IQ, struggles to find levers when to get it moving, when to hold back, so they’re now going from one extreme to another.