Autopsy Round 9 - St Kilda v Carlton *SPUD'S GAME*

[Plugger35]

Reckon Ross mentioned something about a calf as well, which could be interesting.

Hopefully it's nothing too serious as our forward line will be stuffed without him.

Butler should be close to returning but he isn't as good as Higgins and neither is Collard who needs a spell.

 

[PJays]

Which I know everybody knows but it's like pulling another Wilkie level player out of the state leagues but really hurts Carlton as well.

And hurts St Kilda when the salary cap squeeze comes....

The difference is we would've been paying Wilkie peanuts for his first year or two. And I doubt we're paying above market value now.

Based on current projections the TPP cap will be $18 - $19 million in 2026 and 2027.

We'd be paying De Koning close to 10% of the cap at $1.7 mil.

You can say that we're currently 5% under the cap, which is true. But who knows who becomes available in the next 2-3 years. Once you sign TDK (and hopefully NWM) to big deals (adding to King), and you need to re-sign the other kids- Phillipou, etc- your salary cap flexibility is gone, and you've lost the chance for any other big name in the next few years.

It will be beautiful if it comes to pass.

If handing over $12 million dollars to someone who isn't worth that is your idea of beautiful....all I can say is "beauty lies in the eye of the beholder".

I just can't understand this madness.

Someone make this make sense....

 

[beside the seaside]

Are you suggesting he is as damaging as they are? On a turnover per possession basis, he'd be miles ahead of all of them.

I'm saying it's a pointless stat

 

[Hippster]

We have a shit load of unused salary savings that need to be spent. TDK would be getting massive front loading and would be closer to 1.4M on an ongoing basis. With the cap is increasing it's very affordable for us.

Sure. But you will never play two pure ruckman in the same team. Neither are great forwards. The game is all about pace now.

 

[Hippster]

it’s an interesting little note along the road. Carlton fans just hate to admit that their second ruck is Patrick Cripps and St Kilda fans hate to admit that our second ruck is Micthito. How can it be?

Cartons second ruck is Pittonet. And he’s good. Always up there in clearances. But nobody plays two pure rucks anymore.

 

[littlecreatures]

Cripps didn't dominate the match though did he? I thought they had a pretty good battle.

Cripps - 21 CBAs and 3 centre clearances. Additionally, 26 disposals and 15 contested possessions.

Steele - 22 CBAs and 0 centre clearances. Additionally, 20 disposals and 7 contested possessions.

He’s not captaining this side and occupying over 90% CBAs to nullify an elite mid every week, and even if he is he’s failing most weeks at doing that and showing accountability to his match up.

I read we should be giving Steele his flowers. Seriously?

 

[SG34]

Cartons second ruck is Pittonet. And he’s good. Always up there in clearances. But nobody plays two pure rucks anymore.

I get what you mean - no 'pure' ruck, but what is a pure rucking? You take the ruck contest. Nominated, run in and tap it (hopefully) . And last night it was Mitchito and Cripps. So Relief ruckman if you like, and like it or not, it seems that Mitchito Owens is our man. And to your point, yes, we don't want to choose a 'real ruckman' by the looks.

 

[Minga]

Lost 4 of our last 5

I tip my hat to anyone feeling positive.

Our disposal is shit..... still.

We need players that can execute.

There are plenty of positives if you want to look for them. Wouldn’t begrudge anyone for wallowing in the defeats of late though.

Personally, the most frustrating thing is I know we can play a lot better than as it stands. It’s the under utilisation of the abilities we currently have which drives me up the walls, whether that’s coaching or players or both.

Our next period of games will be telling for where we’re at, but now that we’re behind the ledger perhaps we’ll go through another phase of growth. One positive is that we are growing, I think there are plenty of signs of it despite the recent defeats. Failure tends to be a necessity to growth.

 

[Teflon]

Lyon needs to have a word in his ear about efforts off the ball, got caught a lot watching the game at times. Still a lot of work to be done in areas of decision making and disposal. You can get a lot of the ball and cover a lot of territory, but finishing off the work is the thing that needs addressing.

Send him back to Sandy for some confidence he looks like he’s second guessing himself
I’d cut him some slack
Just rotate with Travaglia good runner can play similar role

 

[Diehard Saint]

"Maybe you'd be overpaying" is an understatement

With King on big money til 2032, and Nas deserving big money with SA teams on his tail, can we even afford $1.7mil?

We'd have 3 players on about $4mil a year. One of them hasn't played consistent footy in 3 years, another's best season has been 7th in Carlton's B&F.

It's madness.

More importantly the only players who could possibly deserve that level of money are absolute top tier legends- prime Ablett, prime Dangerfield, Buddy or Dusty.

The fact we're talking about it for a guy who isn't in Carlton's top 3 or 4 players just frustrates me.

Bassat said we had enough $$ to chase at least two free agents AND look after our own players.

 

[Teflon]

Was the umpiring look as bad on tv as it did live last night?

Just over officiated
Blew whistle….take a guess who was getting the free then miss obvious ones
Quick on the frees in blues forward 50 don’t know goals from frees ended up but felt like it was their way
Umps were shit and ruining the game - too much say on end result
FFS just pay the obvious otherwise…play on

 

[saintbill]

Yes, I agree Lyon was missing targets, fumbling the ball and bombing to the blues defenders.
We should sack him

Why have a coach at all then? As you say, they can't do the work for the players.

In my view, Lyon has a responsibility to read the game and make adjustements. In the first half Blues won about 10 clearances in a row ffs, and he made no adjustments.

Then when Carlton were cooked in the second half with no rotations, blind Freddy could see we needed some class around the ball if we were ever going to score.

You hear Carlton playing fast footy. We were conservative, lazy, and underprepared. That is 100% on Lyon and the coaching staff, he had a stinker.

 

[saintbill]

Interesting decision to get Bonner back from Casey for this game.

In all seriousness that felt like more of the same old garbage. Smashed in the clearances, shocking forward entries, undersized all over the ground, particularly in the forward line and awful turnovers. I’ve resigned myself to just waiting until some of the kids come good and Ross finally has some better cattle to work with. Need that critical mass of talented youth to push us into contention again.

Ross has been at the club for 3 years now and we are still undersized by 5kgs on average.

He is welcome to actually do something about it, he is the coach after all.

Perhaps giving the group an extra day off a week, isn't the direction we need to go in. Not sure how we expect to catch the other teams physically be doing less. It's certainly interesting.

I would say this version of Ross Lyon is unrecognisable, but you can tell its him because its the same old ugly game style.

 

[jumperfan]

Ross has been at the club for 3 years now and we are still undersized by 5kgs on average.

He is welcome to actually do something about it, he is the coach after all.

Perhaps giving the group an extra day off a week, isn't the direction we need to go in. Not sure how we expect to catch the other teams physically be doing less. It's certainly interesting.

I would say this version of Ross Lyon is unrecognisable, but you can tell its him because its the same old ugly game style.

Lyon can't do much about the lack of quality mids and talls. He's paying for a decade's worth of horrific drafting and player development. There's clearly a concerted effort to right the ship but the damage done since he left the first time was extremely severe and won't be easy to fix.

 

[PJays]

Bassat said we had enough $$ to chase at least two free agents AND look after our own players.

That type of statement can only be made with a medium term outlook- because the vast majority of players have 1 or 2 years left on their contracts.

My point is if we sign TDK to 8 years, along with King's 7 remaining years and hopefully NWM to at least 4, we have 3 big long-term contracts on the books. Simple maths and logic tells you this means long term flexibility is lessened- regardless of Bassat's comment that we're OK for the immediate couple of years.

 

[TheJackal]

Langford would have done SFA tonight.

You know who would have been handy is Taru tho

Last night I was just messing around bringing up the Higgins goal last year and Langford... but since you took the bait - he did more than SFA today. Langford is a dead set gun and AT THE MOMENT (not yelling just emphasising) he is absolutely miles ahead of Travaglia.

 

[saintbill]

Lost 4 of our last 5

I tip my hat to anyone feeling positive.

Our disposal is shit..... still.

We need players that can execute.

Garcia was fumbly last night. Still think he can be neat, just needs time.

Pou back will help. Skills are elite.

Hill's skills are widely overrated. Turnover king.

Windy is a massive worry. His decision making is diabolical. Panics far too often.

He is the reverse Pendles. Creates pressure when he has more time. Hacks it forward without thinking. It's a shame, because he tries hard but this is a hard thing to suddenly improve upon.

 

[StFly]

Reckon Ross mentioned something about a calf as well, which could be interesting.

Just before he came off there was a brief moment on telecast where he did pull up very lame, so might be an "awareness" instance.

 

[saintbill]

Anyways biggest possitive for me was Pou. High half forward a very tough role, especially the way we were playing. Two snags a few good marks and some quality tackling.

Get him
On ball.

I swear Lyon will wait 10 weeks to do this. It will be round 20 and we will still be rolling with Steele, Macrae and Garcia at every centre clearance.

 

[saintbill]

Carlton floods back to make us go slow

Big footy "How could Ross Lyon do this"

Oh I see, Blues flooded back when they have SFA rotations. Genius, absolutely nobody could have seen that coming and absolutely nobody could expect a tactical response from Lyon.

Round of applause for the genius that is Micahel Voss.

 

[Diehard Saint]

That type of statement can only be made with a medium term outlook- because the vast majority of players have 1 or 2 years left on their contracts.

My point is if we sign TDK to 8 years, along with King's 7 remaining years and hopefully NWM to at least 4, we have 3 big long-term contracts on the books. Simple maths and logic tells you this means long term flexibility is lessened- regardless of Bassat's comment that we're OK for the immediate couple of years.

Pretty sure they’d have an eye on the longer term future too. That’s what their job is. Keeping the money “in the bank” helps nothing.

 

[saintbill]

He's a gun player, we saw that last night. Maybe you'd be overpaying but the bloke can play.

I honestly didn't notice him at all. I mean at that price, any danger of a few contested grabs, a goal perhaps. Seems a pretty basic sort of player to me. He ain't no Max Gawn that's for sure. Will be on double the coin though.

I don't really care either way at that price. I would be a firm no, but Marshall is ordinary these days.

 

[Teflon]

I normally defend him, but was just terrible last night, deserves to be dropped for trav. At least trav will tackle and can navigate a contest. Hill has got to be the worst contested player in the league, and his kicking last night was bottom of the barrel

And let’s be honest he telegraphs his “run from behind give a get” then runs into trouble …then shits his pants …then turns it over
He doesn’t have laser kicking - last night basic kicks under no pressure missed targets ????
I’m with you at least Travaglia will tackle
Henry for Hill

 

[beside the seaside]

Cripps - 21 CBAs and 3 centre clearances. Additionally, 26 disposals and 15 contested possessions.

Steele - 22 CBAs and 0 centre clearances. Additionally, 20 disposals and 7 contested possessions.

He’s not captaining this side and occupying over 90% CBAs to nullify an elite mid every week, and even if he is he’s failing most weeks at doing that and showing accountability to his match up.

I read we should be giving Steele his flowers. Seriously?

I guess I just don't get the bagging of him. He's not elite anymore but he was still our second best mid and has improved in the past month. Pretty much after every loss we hear that he doesn't care and this kind of stuff, I don't think that could be further from the truth. Would love him to be back to his best but I don't think it's happening so maybe his job these days is nullifying someone.

 

[BrutThough]

I guess I just don't get the bagging of him. He's not elite anymore but he was still our second best mid and has improved in the past month. Pretty much after every loss we hear that he doesn't care and this kind of stuff, I don't think that could be further from the truth. Would love him to be back to his best but I don't think it's happening so maybe his job these days is nullifying someone.

Once someone gets whipping boy status, everything they do somehow warrants criticism. No matter what he did last night, it wouldnt be considered good enough.