Opinion Ruing missed Premiership opportunities since 2000..

[rapidfire7]

I know that similar topics have come up before, but how satisfied are with the Cat's overall success in the 21st century? I'm talking purely in terms of Premierships.

On the surface, I think few would argue that 4 Premierships is an excellent achievement and probably more than most other clubs could ever dream of over a similar period.

However, given the plethora of opportunities which we created for ourselves, should we have really won more?

Whilst the 2020, 2025 & obviously, the 2008 Grand Final really hurt, it is actually the lost Prelim opportunities of 2019, and most of all, 2024 which hurt the most for me.

On both occasions, we were obviously right on top, had very healthy leads, and yet, were completely overrun in the second half.

IMO, a large part of why this happened was due to some very poor (if not mind boggling) coaching/matchup decisions by Scotty & the coaching group. Decisions, which I don't have the time or energy to go over in depth right at this moment.

Needless to say, we just had to get over the line in at least 1 of these matches and we would have all but surely won another Premiership the following week the against GWS or Sydney.

Another Premiership, which we would have surely deserved, given our almost unprecedented level of regular season success over a very, very long time.

I really feel 5, if not 6 Premierships this century would be a much more accurate and fairer reflection of just how good our team has been.

I hate to say it, but when it comes to the crunch, we just don't make the most of our opportunites like some other clubs do, and whilst I don't wish to get too far off the topic, I think Scotty's coaching in big moments, in big games can often lead a lot to be desired.

Thoughts?

 

[MisterMarcus]

I know that similar topics have come up before, but how satisfied are with the Cat's overall success in the 21st century? I'm talking purely in terms of Premierships.

On the surface, I think few would argue that 4 Premierships is an excellent achievement and probably more than most other clubs could ever dream of over a similar period.

However, given the plethora of opportunities which we created for ourselves, should we have really won more?

Whilst the 2020, 2025 & obviously, the 2008 Grand Final really hurt, it is actually the lost Prelim opportunities of 2019, and most of all, 2024 which hurt the most for me.

On both occasions, we were obviously right on top, had very healthy leads, and yet, were completely overrun in the second half.

IMO, a large part of why this happened was due to some very poor (if not mind boggling) coaching/matchup decisions by Scotty & the coaching group. Decisions, which I don't have the time or energy to go over in depth right at this moment.

Needless to say, we just had to get over the line in at least 1 of these matches and we would have all but surely won another Premiership the following week the against GWS or Sydney.

Another Premiership, which we would have surely deserved, given our almost unprecedented level of regular season success over a very, very long time.

I really feel 5, if not 6 Premierships this century would be a much more accurate and fairer reflection of just how good our team has been.

I hate to say it, but when it comes to the crunch, we just don't make the most of our opportunites like some other clubs do, and whilst I don't wish to get too far off the topic, I think Scotty's coaching in big moments, in big games can often lead a lot to be desired.

Thoughts?

I've said all this before, but i always felt we OVER-achieved a bit in the post-2011 era.

We had structural holes in our list that were never addressed (e.g. no permanent second KPF for Hawkins until Cameron came along a decade later), some poor trading and drafting decisions plus some bad luck meant that we had limited youth coming through, and an unbalanced list consisting of kids and oldies with not much in between.

On our 2020 list, look at the yawning gap of talent between ages 24 and 29, basically the 'prime' years of a footballer, due to the gaps in our development through most of the 2010s. I'd submit we were damn lucky to be there and therabouts for so long with some of these lists.



I think our list is in a much better place in terms of balance now, so maybe 2024-5 you can argue were potential "ones that got away". But I personally feel pinching a flag between 2012-2021 would have been a bit of a fluke.

 

[Mr Meow]

I know that similar topics have come up before, but how satisfied are with the Cat's overall success in the 21st century? I'm talking purely in terms of Premierships.

On the surface, I think few would argue that 4 Premierships is an excellent achievement and probably more than most other clubs could ever dream of over a similar period.

However, given the plethora of opportunities which we created for ourselves, should we have really won more?

Whilst the 2020, 2025 & obviously, the 2008 Grand Final really hurt, it is actually the lost Prelim opportunities of 2019, and most of all, 2024 which hurt the most for me.

On both occasions, we were obviously right on top, had very healthy leads, and yet, were completely overrun in the second half.

IMO, a large part of why this happened was due to some very poor (if not mind boggling) coaching/matchup decisions by Scotty & the coaching group. Decisions, which I don't have the time or energy to go over in depth right at this moment.

Needless to say, we just had to get over the line in at least 1 of these matches and we would have all but surely won another Premiership the following week the against GWS or Sydney.

Another Premiership, which we would have surely deserved, given our almost unprecedented level of regular season success over a very, very long time.

I really feel 5, if not 6 Premierships this century would be a much more accurate and fairer reflection of just how good our team has been.

I hate to say it, but when it comes to the crunch, we just don't make the most of our opportunites like some other clubs do, and whilst I don't wish to get too far off the topic, I think Scotty's coaching in big moments, in big games can often lead a lot to be desired.

Thoughts?

Shit happens.

 

[Biggy_Boy]

Absolutely should have at the very least made a grand final between 2013 and 2019.
In that time we made top 4 five times and prelims four times.
2013, 16, 17 and 19 our H&A form was among the best, if not the best, of the year, and we should have made a 2-3 grand finals There were incredibly disappointing finals performances during that time. The 2013 QF, which was at our home ground, was marred with poor selection decisions. The 2016 PF against Sydney was a disgrace. The 2017 QF a similar story. We threw away 2019 not playing a ruckman.

Grand finals are harder to judge and one which you can be a bit ambivalent about. Anything can happen on that day and you're always playing a pretty powerful team. I'd say we should have won at least one of 2008, 2020 and 2025. That would have been a decent return on that trio. We were probably fortunate to pip the Saints for 2009, so that helps the ledger slightly.

Post-2019 we've at least gotten better at converting H&A form into finals form. Maybe even become a better finals side than H&A side. However, we're still failing at the finishing line. 2024 could have been another flag had we not bungled it at the finish line, while it feels like in 2025 the occasion got the better of the players and they capitulated under the pressure
against a side they had comprehensively bested a few weeks prior.

You can't not be happy with four flags and seven grand finals, but for all the other strong finishes and finals series, I think it's fair to say we haven't made the most of opportunity and we've left success on the table. I don't accept the arguments that we didn't have enough good players. You don't get yourself in the positions we did if, relative to the competition, you don't have the players.

 

[Partridge]

Absolutely should have at the very least made a grand final between 2013 and 2019.
In that time we made top 4 five times and prelims four times.
2013, 16, 17 and 19 our H&A form was among the best, if not the best, of the year, and we should have made a 2-3 grand finals There were incredibly disappointing finals performances during that time. The 2013 QF, which was at our home ground, was marred with poor selection decisions. The 2016 PF against Sydney was a disgrace. The 2017 QF a similar story. We threw away 2019 not playing a ruckman.

Grand finals are harder to judge and one which you can be a bit ambivalent about. Anything can happen on that day and you're always playing a pretty powerful team. I'd say we should have won at least one of 2008, 2020 and 2025. That would have been a decent return on that trio. We were probably fortunate to pip the Saints for 2009, so that helps the ledger slightly.

Post-2019 we've at least gotten better at converting H&A form into finals form. Maybe even become a better finals side than H&A side. However, we're still failing at the finishing line. 2024 could have been another flag had we not bungled it at the finish line, while it feels like in 2025 the occasion got the better of the players and they capitulated under the pressure
against a side they had comprehensively bested a few weeks prior.

You can't not be happy with four flags and seven grand finals, but for all the other strong finishes and finals series, I think it's fair to say we haven't made the most of opportunity and we've left success on the table. I don't accept the arguments that we didn't have enough good players. You don't get yourself in the positions we did if, relative to the competition, you don't have the players.

Definitely agree with this, but important to point out if we're talking since the first premiership in 2007, that's twenty seasons coming up, so it's covering a lot of territory and a lot of players. No way known did we NOT have the players in 2008 or even 2013. There might have been the odd passenger in there, but every flag team has them. Even in 2019, you can't argue with a straight face we didn't have the players when we finished the home and away season in top spot. And had smashed Richmond by 11 goals halfway through the season.

I most certainly do NOT think we should have won the premiership every year (cue the "but you expect a flag every year or you're not happy" arguments), but yeah I reckon another 1-2 flags is not unreasonable. 2008 without any doubt, and for me personally 2013 as well. I don't necessarily subscribe to the last two years, and they were obviously excellent efforts both times. But when the heat went up - both times against Brisbane - they were just too good. This year far too good. Doesn't mean we were rubbish either, although the last quarter this year was pitiful. Can't blame injuries either, it happens to every team and is part of footy.

Overall though, 4 flags in 16 years (2007-2022) is still a pretty impressive effort. Would have been nice to nab another one or two but never mind.

 

[Biggy_Boy]

On our 2020 list, look at the yawning gap of talent between ages 24 and 29, basically the 'prime' years of a footballer, due to the gaps in our development through most of the 2010s. I'd submit we were damn lucky to be there and therabouts for so long with some of these lists.

View attachment 2524097

We won a flag with most of these players two years later. D-grade Darcy Fort has been the primary ruck in the last two flags.

 

[Commando]

In simple terms
We've left them on the table
Easily could have won one/some of 13/16/19/20/24/25 on another day...

A lot needs to go right and premierships are bloody hard to win

 

[Mr Meow]

We won a flag with most of these players two years later. D-grade Darcy Fort has been the primary ruck in the last two flags.

2022 we had Cameron as a top 10 player in the league helping Hawkins up forward, Smith and Holmes as elite runners on the wings, Stengle an All Australian small forward and SDK had a shockingly great year as a young mobile KPD (instead of old, slow ones at the end). Duncan was able to be rolled back as our 2024-2025 Lions Zorko type distributor across half back before he lost a step. Miers and Close emerged as half forward creators to help sew it all together. Zuthrie gave us a proper deputy for Stewart.

There was a fair bit different about 2022 to the 2019-2022 sides. Transport the above factors into the earlier team and we probably beat Richmond in both of those earlier finals.

 

[STPer18]

There's a universe where we lose the '07 Prelim rather than just pip the Pies by 5 points, and we're on a 63 year premiership drought.

 

[Biggy_Boy]

There's a universe where we lose the '07 Prelim rather than just pip the Pies by 5 points, and we're on a 63 year premiership drought.

Maybe in that universe, that loss drives the group to victory in 2008, and they then go on to win 2009, 2010, 2011, 12, and 13.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

We won a flag with most of these players two years later. D-grade Darcy Fort has been the primary ruck in the last two flags.

He has but brisbane had basically an AA level midfield (like what we had in 2007 to 2009) plus a couple of very dangerous forwards and Andrews and some very quality defenders. We didnt have that same depth and quality particularly in midfield.

 

[Mr Meow]

Maybe in that universe, that loss drives the group to victory in 2008, and they then go on to win 2009, 2010, 2011, 12, and 13.

Yeah that's absolutely what our near miss in '89 lead to. Three-peating '92-'94 is one of my fondest sporting memories.

 

[dudusmaximus]

Like Wishcasting (wishful forecasting), I propose a new word "Wishvising" ("wishful revising" ..of the past)

It is all a big COPE, isn't it? If the Cats had taken all their half chances, they would have been Predictable AF and we'd all be following a different Team/Sport. Being a tragic is what part makes up for a fan. It's those layers of taste that make up a tasty dish.

 

[frggr]

Seems like a bit of a fool's errand to get caught up in what could have been.

I think the advantages we've had (extraordinary father-son luck) have been outweighed massively by disadvantages (no home finals, tainted draw, every "draft concession" given to every other.club has impacted us directly*) and so we've achieved par, maybe even over achieved a little.

Half of our flags were won against some of the strongest teams of the era and a number of our close calls were against the strongest teams (I include Brisbane here, who will remain strong for years to come) . Can't be mad about that.


There are 16 other clubs who'd have what we have. Probably 17, actually. Richmond have almost as many flags but they're back to being Richmond already. We win 2 out of every 3 games we play - that's massive.




Is there any other club that has been affected negatively by *practically every draft concession the AFL has given since 2000?

 

[Partridge]

Seems like a bit of a fool's errand to get caught up in what could have been.

I think the advantages we've had (extraordinary father-son luck) have been outweighed massively by disadvantages (no home finals, tainted draw, every "draft concession" given to every other.club has impacted us directly*) and so we've achieved par, maybe even over achieved a little.

How have draft concessions to other clubs impacted us directly? Can't think of anything that wasn't in place in 2022 and it didn't bother us then.

I'd also add our home ground is a pretty significant advantage as well. We absolutely deserve it, but it's still an advantage.

 

[UnitedWarrior93]

2008 hurt… bad, because we were so dominant, the reigning premiers and it was ours to lose. 2013 PF, was gutted that night too but there’s every chance Fremantle knock us off in that GF for their 1st flag, they had the wood on us back then.

2016 was another missed chance, completely shat the bed in the PF, quite confident we would’ve taken care of the Dogs in the big one. 2019 PF, this one hurt more than the 2020 GF, because again, had we of got through we would’ve wiped the floor with the banged up GWS Giants as the Tigers did.

As much as it sucked losing the 2025 GF, (Why we were such short odds I’ve no idea), the 2024 PF loss to the Lions is the one that hits, we had that game until Holmes’ injury, very confident we take care of the Swans in the big one like we did in 2022.

4 flags since 2007 is awesome, could and probably should have more but we’re quite blessed as fans to go for such a great club that year after year front up to go for it.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

What would be lovely is for Geelong to go into a GF , basically the despised outsider , given no chance at all by nearly every pundit , look if everything goes right for them on the day , they could beat the other team perhaps once , or twice maximum out of Ten

And for Geelong to actually win a premiership under those circumstances , weve had no pleasant euphoric experiences in GFs , Geel simply win flags when they are the short price favourite or equal fave

It would be absolutely beautiful for Geelong to pinch a flag when they are given no chance , unfortunately Geelong have pinched absolutely nothing , in fact 100% of nothing

 

[winty]

2010 was another one that slipped away. If Ling's goal to put us in front in the Qualifying Final was allowed to stand, the Aints and Collingwood would've fought out a Prelim while we would've played a Bulldogs side we smacked by 100 points a few weeks before in the other Prelim.

 

[PzBlinky]

I'm sure a lot of us think about 2019 the way Pies fans think about 2007. Tough PF where we had a good chance of winning only to fluff it up...and missing out on GF opposition that pretty much crapped their pants on the biggest stage. Maybe we wouldn't have beaten the Giants by as much, but it would've 100% been an easier game - same for the Pies had they nabbed a last minute goal against us.

 

[Hinkley29]

This board does love self flagellation.

 

[Partridge]

2008 hurt… bad, because we were so dominant, the reigning premiers and it was ours to lose. 2013 PF, was gutted that night too but there’s every chance Fremantle knock us off in that GF for their 1st flag, they had the wood on us back then.

2016 was another missed chance, completely shat the bed in the PF, quite confident we would’ve taken care of the Dogs in the big one. 2019 PF, this one hurt more than the 2020 GF, because again, had we of got through we would’ve wiped the floor with the banged up GWS Giants as the Tigers did.

As much as it sucked losing the 2025 GF, (Why we were such short odds I’ve no idea), the 2024 PF loss to the Lions is the one that hits, we had that game until Holmes’ injury, very confident we take care of the Swans in the big one like we did in 2022.

4 flags since 2007 is awesome, could and probably should have more but we’re quite blessed as fans to go for such a great club that year after year front up to go for it.

Yep they're my two as well. We had a big chance against Fremantle, it was only insane team selection that cost us the Qualifying final and we absolutely battered them the one time they'd met that season. Would have been quietly confident in that scenario.

 

[Vdubs]

I've said all this before, but i always felt we OVER-achieved a bit in the post-2011 era.

We had structural holes in our list that were never addressed (e.g. no permanent second KPF for Hawkins until Cameron came along a decade later), some poor trading and drafting decisions plus some bad luck meant that we had limited youth coming through, and an unbalanced list consisting of kids and oldies with not much in between.

On our 2020 list, look at the yawning gap of talent between ages 24 and 29, basically the 'prime' years of a footballer, due to the gaps in our development through most of the 2010s. I'd submit we were damn lucky to be there and therabouts for so long with some of these lists.

View attachment 2524097

I think our list is in a much better place in terms of balance now, so maybe 2024-5 you can argue were potential "ones that got away". But I personally feel pinching a flag between 2012-2021 would have been a bit of a fluke.

Bit harsh re Cam Guthrie, imho. 2x B&F, and his best coincided with 2 GF's . B+ - A?

 

[Vdubs]

2010 was another one that slipped away. If Ling's goal to put us in front in the Qualifying Final was allowed to stand, the Aints and Collingwood would've fought out a Prelim while we would've played a Bulldogs side we smacked by 100 points a few weeks before in the other Prelim.

Can't see it that way given how pathetic we were v Pies.

 

[Vdubs]

What would be lovely is for Geelong to go into a GF , basically the despised outsider , given no chance at all by nearly every pundit , look if everything goes right for them on the day , they could beat the other team perhaps once , or twice maximum out of Ten

And for Geelong to actually win a premiership under those circumstances , weve had no pleasant euphoric experiences in GFs , Geel simply win flags when they are the short price favourite or equal fave

It would be absolutely beautiful for Geelong to pinch a flag when they are given no chance , unfortunately Geelong have pinched absolutely nothing , in fact 100% of nothing

Should have won 08, and if we had, it's arguable we would have been as hungry for 09. We didn't pinch 09, but a few things went our way, and the hunger was extreme- Mooney has said this several times.

 

[Vdubs]

2022 we had Cameron as a top 10 player in the league helping Hawkins up forward, Smith and Holmes as elite runners on the wings, Stengle an All Australian small forward and SDK had a shockingly great year as a young mobile KPD (instead of old, slow ones at the end). Duncan was able to be rolled back as our 2024-2025 Lions Zorko type distributor across half back before he lost a step. Miers and Close emerged as half forward creators to help sew it all together. Zuthrie gave us a proper deputy for Stewart.

There was a fair bit different about 2022 to the 2019-2022 sides. Transport the above factors into the earlier team and we probably beat Richmond in both of those earlier finals.

And Cam Guthrie equal B & F. His best has been sadly missing since 22. And it has cost us. A true elite 2 way runner.