Injury Russell your feathers - discuss all things high performance; injury lists, Marvel surface, curse from the gods and Andrew Russell

[WalshistheGOAT]

Cuningham
Martin
Marchbank
Williams
Docherty
S. Durdin
Mcgovern

Remove this lot and how many injuries do we actually get each year?

I don't really care if Russell stays or goes but I'm tipping if we moved on from this lot we'd be bang on par for injuries league wide.

 

[JustOneTime]

Cuningham
Martin
Marchbank
Williams
Docherty
S. Durdin
Mcgovern

Remove this lot and how many injuries do we actually get each year?

I don't really care if Russell stays or goes but I'm tipping if we moved on from this lot we'd be bang on par for injuries league wide.

Will we soon have to include Cerra (hamstrings) and Walsh (load mgmt)? Motlop?

 

[Kruezing]

Cuningham
Martin
Marchbank
Williams
Docherty
S. Durdin
Mcgovern

Remove this lot and how many injuries do we actually get each year?

I don't really care if Russell stays or goes but I'm tipping if we moved on from this lot we'd be bang on par for injuries league wide.

I think we’ve created a similar list from previously durable players

 

[Arr0w]

Think we all knew Cerra was out before tonight

Is Cuners a wrist, calf or both? Stay tuned for the next installment of an injury prone player finding another way to get injured

HOK has plenty of time on his hands, but crap news

Cottrell, foot issue, over worked? Endurance athletes like Cottrell will break down over time, think Scully

I'm sure there would be ongoing reviews into our HP, but I hope we are looking at new/better individualised programs for all players

Anyway, Williams likely back this week, Saad, Fog and Mots next week

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

I personally think that there are a lot of factors that contribute significantly to our injuries, that are not related to our HPM.

Specifically;

• Recruitment - the SOS era netted a lot of High-Risk, potentially high reward players, whom were under injury clouds before they got here. (Marchbank,Martin,McGovern - curse of the 'M's?)
• Disposal - If you don't hit targets, you turn the ball over and are instantly on your bike the other way. Two-way running is very taxing for an entire game.
• Game-Plan - Our Game plan is numbers around the ball, and tackles/pressure acts. You need to ensure you put teams away early if you are going to play this way as its physically taxing to have players (2-way) running in support.
• Reliance on Guns - This one is my pet hate. It's always our big names that have to lift for us to win. We need to have contributors across the board. Playing 'a role' is fine but we need more of our 2nd/2rd tier to find some consistency. We have to rest our stars more, suck it up and leave the younger brigade take some heat. We have a lot of talented youngsters, but too many of them 'Go Missing' which means they are not yet fit enough, or they need to play in the VFL until they show they are hungry enough.

I think this is a cop out, as this has been a massive problem during and post Silvagni, across multiple coaches and game plans fast and slow, and when we have been both a good and poor football side.

I think we can narrow it down further if we admit the club is not always going to get it right despite their best efforts.

Russell has been a constant over that time.
The Princes Park (and Marvel) turf has been a constant over that time.
The general culture and attitudes amongst players towards training, rehabilitation and preparation may not have improved over that time (how could we know)

Most other factors including the ones you have mentioned have changed enough over the years to suggest they are not the problem or they are a very small part of the problem, even if they were a big contributing factor the Director of High Performance should be all over it. The overall fitness and health of the group ultimately falls on him, especially after 6 years in charge.

Change something Blues.

 

[CCurnow3votes]

Given how much you know about our injuries and our HP Teams clear responsibility for them, you must be able to tell us who we should have as a replacement and why they would be better…

Or is this simply that we have injuries & you just feel like blaming somebody?

Surely your not just saying - Injuries=Russel??

 

[CarmenSandiego]

Given how much you know about our injuries and our HP Teams clear responsibility for them, you must be able to tell us who we should have as a replacement and why they would be better…

Or is this simply that we have injuries & you just feel like blaming somebody?

Surely your not just saying - Injuries=Russel??

Read my previous posts in this thread.

He’s the boss of the high performance team which is responsible for the strength and conditioning and the overall health of our list.

That department has underperformed year after year after year since he came on board. If he was a head coach, CEO, list manager or the head of any other department he would’ve been long gone.

Soft tissue and loading injuries galore.

It’s really not that deep.

I’m not sure who we should replace him with, there’s staff paid a few hundred k a year to figure that out. I’m sure there’d be 100s of applicants banging the door down. West Coast for rid of their bloke, they look heaps better this year.

 

[agro]

Williams
Docherty
S. Durdin
Mcgovern

Remove this lot and how many injuries do we actually get each year?

I don’t know

 

[ESKIE]

My sister & I are happy to donate a kidney if that can help

 

[teddy-hopkins]

Think you are confusing fact with insight and opinion.

I think the use of the word "fact" was in relation to our longer than average injury list at the start of the season for an extended period of time. Not a blanket "my opinion is fact".

 

[CCurnow3votes]

Read my previous posts in this thread.

He’s the boss of the high performance team which is responsible for the strength and conditioning and the overall health of our list.

That department has underperformed year after year after year since he came on board. If he was a head coach, CEO, list manager or the head of any other department he would’ve been long gone.

Soft tissue and loading injuries galore.

It’s really not that deep.

I’m not sure who we should replace him with, there’s staff paid a few hundred k a year to figure that out. I’m sure there’d be 100s of applicants banging the door down. West Coast for rid of their bloke, they look heaps better this year.

Injuries = Russell.

No idea why - just because there were some and are some now.

No idea who to replace him with & why this would give us a better outcome.

We are all a little frustrated by injuries friend, but I’d suggest there are more than one reason why we have the injuries we do.

I can’t imagine our CEO, the HOF or our Head Coach would be sitting back if they thought it was all about Russell?

Why would they do that - because they think he’s a nice bloke?

This organisation is hungry for success - driven by leaders who have tasted success at the highest level - several times.

I have trust in them to manage this.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

Read my previous posts in this thread.

He’s the boss of the high performance team which is responsible for the strength and conditioning and the overall health of our list.

That department has underperformed year after year after year since he came on board. If he was a head coach, CEO, list manager or the head of any other department he would’ve been long gone.

Soft tissue and loading injuries galore.

It’s really not that deep.

I’m not sure who we should replace him with, there’s staff paid a few hundred k a year to figure that out. I’m sure there’d be 100s of applicants banging the door down. West Coast for rid of their bloke, they look heaps better this year.

None of us are experts. If the scope of all discussion on this forum was limited to what we're experts in it would be a quiet place.

We all saw the preseason training reports. We commented at the time that hearing the guys were going at full intensity in January was crazy. That the only thing that could derail a premiership tilt this year was injuries. That we have a very mature list and any gains wer le going to be negligible. That the preseason strategy was risky.

Now we're seeing those chickens have come home to roost.

4 more injuries just this week. Difficult to imagine a more epic sh!tshow - and one we saw coming months ago.

The counter argument seems to be - "well you're not an expert how would you know?"

We can all read the injury list.

This may not be all Russell's fault. He may have been asked by the footy department to construct the most intense preseason program he could. In which case the whole football dept need their head read. But at the very least Russell should have enough smarts and power at the club to recommend otherwise because ultimately he has to carry the can for this.

 

[CCurnow3votes]

My sister & I are happy to donate a kidney if that can help

That’s the spirit!

They can have mine too.

While I’m at it they can have my left eye - I only need one

 

[CarmenSandiego]

Injuries = Russell.

Where did I say that?

No idea why - just because there were some and are some now.

No idea who to replace him with & why this would give us a better outcome.

Are you expecting to read an in-depth formal recommendation on the HP department on Bigfooty? What exactly argument are you making here? You're just straw-manning and trying to point score.

We are all a little frustrated by injuries friend, but I’d suggest there are more than one reason why we have the injuries we do.

Cool, I'm sure there were more reasons why Brendan Bolton & David Teague kept losing games that didn't have anything to do with them, but what happened to them? Did you want them to remain as coach and try and shh anyone who suggested change was a better option?

I can’t imagine our CEO, the HOF or our Head Coach would be sitting back if they thought it was all about Russell?

Why would they do that - because they think he’s a nice bloke?

I believe he reports to Brad Lloyd, who is not exactly known for making tough decisions. I assume due to our healthy run in finals, we had confidence in him again and kept him on.

This organisation is hungry for success - driven by leaders who have tasted success at the highest level - several times.

I have trust in them to manage this.

So do I. They will manage it by several ways, one of them by replacing personnel, of that personnel 1 of them will be Russell.

The club isn't just going to put blind faith into underperforming key staff members right in the middle of a Premiership window.

 

[CCurnow3votes]

None of us are experts. If the scope of all discussion on this forum was limited to what we're experts in it would be a quiet place.

We all saw the preseason training reports. We commented at the time that hearing the guys were going at full intensity in January was crazy. That the only thing that could derail a premiership tilt this year was injuries. That we have a very mature list and any gains wer le going to be negligible. That the preseason strategy was risky.

Now we're seeing those chickens have come home to roost.

4 more injuries just this week. Difficult to imagine a more epic sh!tshow - and one we saw coming months ago.

The counter argument seems to be - "well you're not an expert how would you know?"

We can all read the injury list.

This may not be all Russell's fault. He may have been asked by the footy department to construct the most intense preseason program he could. In which case the whole football dept need their head read. But at the very least Russell should have enough smarts and power at the club to recommend otherwise because ultimately he has to carry the can for this.

Russell was crowned the best HP Manager through his premiership years at Hawthorn - they weren’t without injuries, and certainly had to change their pre-season training schedule once they started to win finals and play later in the year.

There’s a lot of assumptions being made and blame being thrown.

The worst thing out club can do is emotionally react to a situation without considering all contributing aspects.

I can guarantee you they know more than we do .

What we don’t talk about is what an amazing job Russel & Co have done maintaining the players who are out on the field.

Why don’t we talk about that?

Because we have no idea what’s really going on - just assume all the other “non-injured” players are golden, not carrying anything.

Let’s stop making assumptions and trust the proven professionals like Brian Cooke & Michael Voss to make the right decisions.

 

[Arr0w]

None of us are experts. If the scope of all discussion on this forum was limited to what we're experts in it would be a quiet place.

We all saw the preseason training reports. We commented at the time that hearing the guys were going at full intensity in January was crazy. That the only thing that could derail a premiership tilt this year was injuries. That we have a very mature list and any gains wer le going to be negligible. That the preseason strategy was risky.

Now we're seeing those chickens have come home to roost.

4 more injuries just this week. Difficult to imagine a more epic sh!tshow - and one we saw coming months ago.

The counter argument seems to be - "well you're not an expert how would you know?"

We can all read the injury list.

This may not be all Russell's fault. He may have been asked by the footy department to construct the most intense preseason program he could. In which case the whole football dept need their head read. But at the very least Russell should have enough smarts and power at the club to recommend otherwise because ultimately he has to carry the can for this.

I'm sure this has been debated, where you highlighted, one, training report from David King. For all we know, he may have attended our main training day and every other day was standard intensity training

As for reports from bigfooty eyes that attended, it varied from sharp to lacklustre

And we know what the general consensus was after our practice matches

If you are rolling out "hardest preseason", perhaps a little more evidence than David King sitting in on, one, session, might have a tad more weight

 

[LemmingMaster]

Cuningham
Martin
Marchbank
Williams
Docherty
S. Durdin
Mcgovern

Remove this lot and how many injuries do we actually get each year?

I don't really care if Russell stays or goes but I'm tipping if we moved on from this lot we'd be bang on par for injuries league wide.

Cunningham, Martin, Marchbank, Docherty, McGovern were made of tissue paper before Russell. Not sure I would shoot someone based on their ability to not get injured.

Not sure about Williams as well, have a feeling he was not amazing at GWS as well.

 

[CCurnow3votes]

Where did I say that?



Are you expecting to read an in-depth formal recommendation on the HP department on Bigfooty? What exactly argument are you making here? You're just straw-manning and trying to point score.



Cool, I'm sure there were more reasons why Brendan Bolton & David Teague kept losing games that didn't have anything to do with them, but what happened to them? Did you want them to remain as coach and try and shh anyone who suggested change was a better option?



I believe he reports to Brad Lloyd, who is not exactly known for making tough decisions. I assume due to our healthy run in finals, we had confidence in him again and kept him on.



So do I. They will manage it by several ways, one of them by replacing personnel, of that personnel 1 of them will be Russell.

The club isn't just going to put blind faith into underperforming key staff members right in the middle of a Premiership window.

Aside from us having injuries, you don’t know any more than I do as to why they’re happening.

So yes - all you are saying is injuries = sack Russell. You give no other insight.

How could you - you’re nowhere near the club.

The club moved on from Bolton & Teague because they lost the confidence of the board/management - clearly not the case with Russell - as mentioned by Brian Cooke.

Why do you think it might be different?

 

[Doro]

So much data about training and game day loads these days. You take athletes to the edge they can fall off. Healthier is more important than fitter.

 

[JustOneTime]

Russell was crowned the best HP Manager through his premiership years at Hawthorn - they weren’t without injuries, and certainly had to change their pre-season training schedule once they started to win finals and play later in the year.

It's a good point. Clarkson was crowned the best coach in the league too. Where is he now. Lyon one of the best and where is he now. Funny, Clarkson's rating depends on the best list of players. Um, Russell?

It's only an ok argument to state his Hawthorn history.

 

[BlueTongue]

I think this is a cop out, as this has been a massive problem during and post Silvagni, across multiple coaches and game plans fast and slow, and when we have been both a good and poor football side.

I think we can narrow it down further if we admit the club is not always going to get it right despite their best efforts.

Russell has been a constant over that time.
The Princes Park (and Marvel) turf has been a constant over that time.
The general culture and attitudes amongst players towards training, rehabilitation and preparation may not have improved over that time (how could we know)

Most other factors including the ones you have mentioned have changed enough over the years to suggest they are not the problem or they are a very small part of the problem, even if they were a big contributing factor the Director of High Performance should be all over it. The overall fitness and health of the group ultimately falls on him, especially after 6 years in charge.

Change something Blues.

It's not a cop out. I have in the past been in the 'Russell is doing something wrong' camp, specifically with regard to the number of soft tissue injuries. But if you take our 'unlucky' (Docherty, Marchbank) and 'perpetually injured' (Cuningham,Marchbank, McGovern, Martin) types out of the equation, I don't think our list is much worse off than other clubs. Especially the speed of which the game is played, cramp, hamstrings and collision injuries will only get more frequent.

I 100% think our Gameplan is definitely physically taxing, and we should be following Geelong's methodology of regularly resting key players throughout the season with the 'lesser opponents' rather than running them into the ground.

I'm certainly not disputing that the overall fitness and health of the group ultimately falls on Russell.

 

[JustOneTime]

The club moved on from Bolton & Teague because they lost the confidence of the board/management - clearly not the case with Russell - as mentioned by Brian Cooke.

Why do you think it might be different?

It's different because mid season its hard to find a replacement without head hunting. And high Performance is harder to govern that coaching. Requires another expert high performance specialist to have an opinion on another in their field. Tough going to get this and believe anything concrete.

Doubt many if any are advocating mid season change.

 

[CCurnow3votes]

It's a good point. Clarkson was crowned the best coach in the league too. Where is he now. Lyon one of the best and where is he now. Funny, Clarkson's rating depends on the best list of players. Um, Russell?

It's only an ok argument to state his Hawthorn history.

My point was he was acknowledged as the best in the business by the wider AFL community.

The reference to premierships was about his experience working with teams that played later in the season ( ie Grand Finals).

Therefore having to adjust preseason training methods & loads.

This relative to comments made about crazy new off-season training methods - if he doesn’t know how to manage players on shorter timeframes - who does?

 

[CarmenSandiego]

Aside from us having injuries, you don’t know any more than I do as to why they’re happening.

Aside from watching the game, we as fans don't know anything more as to why we're winning/losing than what we're seeing. So we should shut this board down? No point of discussion if we don't know the inner-workings.

So yes - all you are saying is injuries = sack Russell. You give no other insight.

Neither do you. You are providing absolutely nothing to the discussion, just saying "you don't know so shhh".

How could you - you’re nowhere near the club.

Ah damn. Hey everyone, if you're not close to the club, you can't discuss on here. Please log out immediately and CCurnow3votes will delete your account, it was a good run!

The club moved on from Bolton & Teague because they lost the confidence of the board/management

You're right, they lost their confidence because they kept underperforming. Much like Russell has been since he came on. Which is why I believe him and others will be moved on at years end.

as mentioned by Brian Cooke.

A quote from Cook means nothing, the sign of the cross for a coach is a CEO saying "he has the full support of the board". What else is he going to say?

Why do you think it might be different?

I assume the reason he's held on all these years is because the regimes give him a go under a new coach - he only had 2 years with Bolton, then 2 years with Teague (where he was apparently constantly overruled), and 1 year with Voss.

It's a Premiership window now, the club isn't going to piss around hoping it improves. We might end up healthy in the back end of the year and fit for finals, but its likely we will have missed a top 4 spot due to injuries in the H&A season, so will be up against it again.

My point was he was acknowledged as the best in the business by the wider AFL community.

So was David Buttifant. Thoughts on him?

 

[JustOneTime]

My point was he was acknowledged as the best in the business by the wider AFL community.

The reference to premierships was about his experience working with teams that played later in the season ( ie Grand Finals).

Therefore having to adjust preseason training methods & loads.

This relative to comments made about crazy new off-season training methods - if he doesn’t know how to manage players on shorter timeframes - who does?

I get your points. And dont mind them. But we have a 'relatively' poor record over three seasons. The High Performance team are responsible for this area and Russell is accountable. What if it was the same again next year? Is that enough for you to call for change? Or are you on board with Russell indefinite?