Injury Russell your feathers - discuss all things high performance; injury lists, Marvel surface, curse from the gods and Andrew Russell

[SkyhorseTamer]

Personally, I'd engage a High Performance professional to do a review of our surface, methods, programs, people and players (list management)

It might be a slight or major shift that can dramatically improve the health of our list, but I doubt that it is a singular cause

I'd get two. One from a contact sport and one currently in an endurance sport like football. Then compare their presentations.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

So because someone isn't a recruiter in the field and doesn't know candidates thatmeans that there aren't any or that we therefore can't theorise about the possibility the club moves on? IFF (if and only if) the club moves on I couldn't care less about the name that fills the spot. Just the improvements.

I think you'll find we are in agreement.

 

[I bleed Blue]

I don't know what is causing the problem and I certainly don't have the answer.

But it's quite obvious we have an issue with too many injuries. Has been going on for years.

Every year I feel we look at our injury list and it has 12-14 players constantly on it. Whilst almost all other clubs only have a small handful.

There are other clubs who have unlucky years, and sustain alot of injuries also. But that is the exception and not the rule, and they bounce back the next year back to a normal amount of injuries.

Is the problem out fitness staff? Our training ground? Training methods? Recruiting injury prone players?

Perhaps it's a combination of a few of the above things.

One thing we know for sure is we have a handful of injury prone players that have never been able to consistently get on the park. These guys need to go at the end of the year. That would solve part of the problem. Our recruitment team need to be instructed to only consider durable players moving forward.


These level of injuries hamstring (pun not intended) Voss and the club. And put so much more pressure on the players on the park. Make no mistake it could ultimately end up costing us a premiership.

Also screws over our VFL team and makes it hard for the young kids on the park to play in a competitive side and develop properly.

As I said I don't know what the problem is. But the club needs to review it. Find out what it is, and ****ing fix it.

 

[Accidental genius]

Unless you’re Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder how can you not see we have way too many injuries …

If it’s true that Russell is on big dollars then he’s surely one to look at more closely.

 

[DangerousD]

He was "the best in the business" at Collingwood and we signed him when Mick took over. He was awful.

Similarities to Russell.

Im not sure how you or others come to a conclusion like this, how is someone the best in the business at one club and then awful at the next? Especially when its in relation to knowledge and experience in a field.

 

[Arr0w]

Russell has been involved in 6 flags at 3 clubs over 16 years (2000-2015), but maybe his methods are outdated now

 

[Coona Blues]

Can I politely point out that we have lamented the minuscule injury list Brisbane managed in recent seasons. Can I also point out they have five players currently out with ACL’s (as well as some concussions, soft tissue, shoulders and “lesser” knees)

It is not precise science. It is preparation, it is player make-up, mentally and physically, it is game style, it is game surface and primarily pure dumb luck.

The AFLPA has shifted the boundaries re pre season availability of players. Pre season doesn’t commence at the beach, in the sand dunes etc with weeks of running before the balls come out. Our boys voluntarily presented for their own self managed sessions before they were required to front. Presumably not under the supervision of the S&C group. They had their individual programs tailored by Russell and co. to be completed by day one of official training. Some are diligent, some are not, some do considerably in excess of what is required.

Cotts has a navicular stress reaction, if memory serves me correctly he had something similar a year or two ago. The bloke works his ar** off to create a career. Is that on the S&C team?

The serial under preparers that to a man are unavailable for large chunks of pre season or more critically early season are infuriating. Do they get treated with kid gloves or a whip cracking? Is there a right or wrong answer. McGovern had a much better season last year, a contract season, did the penny drop or…? Martin, Marchbank and Cuningham again not ready round one.

The bloke who has escaped scrutiny is the youngster Motlop. How does a twenty year old take half a season to front up from a soft tissue injury? Has he needed extended time in the cage? He should have had a body of work leading in to the season. If there is any chink in his armour, I hope an end of year clean out serves as a wake up.

We also need to remember that Russell heads up a program for the Carlton College of Sport and his remuneration is not solely from the footy program. I do fear as a bloke at the cutting edge and having an outlet to explore perhaps the next iteration in his field, he has had an element of trial and error with some preparations.

We have been through the Teague years where he denied Russell access to the players and insisted on availability. We are now in a window where intensity has been heightened and the list has been readied for battle rather than fronting half prepared. Perhaps supporters should be lauding the elevation of the bottom rated players in the team who have all elevated due to that enhanced preparation.

Presumably Russell has been given the ability to veto player availability and to have them ready before playing. Clearly a policy devised to have everyone available at the business end of the season. Expectation is that McGovern, Saad and Martin will be available consistently from here. Fogarty clearly ready to comeback and we are treating conservatively, perhaps similar for Motlop. Marchy and Cuners going down again doesn’t bode well for their future.

The outliers at the moment for me are Williams and Cerra. Clearly Cerra has an underlying issue, perhaps back, which is weakening his hammy “integrity”. This needs to be sorted and I would like to think we are investigating. Williams has had an excellent build up to the season and his niggles are galling. Groin “awareness” I think smacks of a bloke coming off injury after injury and not confident in his body. I am not a fan of Voss and Hamill playing him as an accountable defender. He is a runner, a rebounder, a link player first and foremost. It is nit like we are short of blokes able to do a negating role. Saad when right can do a close checking role, but Newman, Cincotta, Boyd and Cowan are all decent, or better, stoppers.

I remain confident that, with a couple of exceptions, we will have a high level of availability in the back end of the season.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

I'm sure this has been debated, where you highlighted, one, training report from David King. For all we know, he may have attended our main training day and every other day was standard intensity training

As for reports from bigfooty eyes that attended, it varied from sharp to lacklustre

And we know what the general consensus was after our practice matches

If you are rolling out "hardest preseason", perhaps a little more evidence than David King sitting in on, one, session, might have a tad more weight

I mentioned King because what motivation has he got to lie? And he's watched all our competitors train also.

But it came from Voss's own mouth.

"We asked a lot of them last year, we’ve asked even more this year and we’ve asked them to step up and they have,” Voss said.

“If I had to say one thing, we weren’t able to sustain the intensity from session to session and why that’s important is because we have a 23-round home and away season.

We're in a good place: Voss finalises pre-season motives

Michael Voss wraps up the pre-season with the key learnings he's taken out of the blocks.

www.carltonfc.com.au

I'm not sure what else you want. If something doesn't suit your argument you simply deny it.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

Can I politely point out that we have lamented the minuscule injury list Brisbane managed in recent seasons. Can I also point out they have five players currently out with ACL’s (as well as some concussions, soft tissue, shoulders and “lesser” knees)

It is not precise science. It is preparation, it is player make-up, mentally and physically, it is game style, it is game surface and primarily pure dumb luck.

The AFLPA has shifted the boundaries re pre season availability of players. Pre season doesn’t commence at the beach, in the sand dunes etc with weeks of running before the balls come out. Our boys voluntarily presented for their own self managed sessions before they were required to front. Presumably not under the supervision of the S&C group. They had their individual programs tailored by Russell and co. to be completed by day one of official training. Some are diligent, some are not, some do considerably in excess of what is required.

Cotts has a navicular stress reaction, if memory serves me correctly he had something similar a year or two ago. The bloke works his ar** off to create a career. Is that on the S&C team?

The serial under preparers that to a man are unavailable for large chunks of pre season or more critically early season are infuriating. Do they get treated with kid gloves or a whip cracking? Is there a right or wrong answer. McGovern had a much better season last year, a contract season, did the penny drop or…? Martin, Marchbank and Cuningham again not ready round one.

The bloke who has escaped scrutiny is the youngster Motlop. How does a twenty year old take half a season to front up from a soft tissue injury? Has he needed extended time in the cage? He should have had a body of work leading in to the season. If there is any chink in his armour, I hope an end of year clean out serves as a wake up.

We also need to remember that Russell heads up a program for the Carlton College of Sport and his remuneration is not solely from the footy program. I do fear as a bloke at the cutting edge and having an outlet to explore perhaps the next iteration in his field, he has had an element of trial and error with some preparations.

We have been through the Teague years where he denied Russell access to the players and insisted on availability. We are now in a window where intensity has been heightened and the list has been readied for battle rather than fronting half prepared. Perhaps supporters should be lauding the elevation of the bottom rated players in the team who have all elevated due to that enhanced preparation.

Presumably Russell has been given the ability to veto player availability and to have them ready before playing. Clearly a policy devised to have everyone available at the business end of the season. Expectation is that McGovern, Saad and Martin will be available consistently from here. Fogarty clearly ready to comeback and we are treating conservatively, perhaps similar for Motlop. Marchy and Cuners going down again doesn’t bode well for their future.

The outliers at the moment for me are Williams and Cerra. Clearly Cerra has an underlying issue, perhaps back, which is weakening his hammy “integrity”. This needs to be sorted and I would like to think we are investigating. Williams has had an excellent build up to the season and his niggles are galling. Groin “awareness” I think smacks of a bloke coming off injury after injury and not confident in his body. I am not a fan of Voss and Hamill playing him as an accountable defender. He is a runner, a rebounder, a link player first and foremost. It is nit like we are short of blokes able to do a negating role. Saad when right can do a close checking role, but Newman, Cincotta, Boyd and Cowan are all decent, or better, stoppers.

I remain confident that, with a couple of exceptions, we will have a high level of availability in the back end of the season.

Just my opinion but this is one of the more ill-informed posts I've seen in a while.

Motlop was noted by everyone as having had a sensational preseason and gotten himself super fit. You're then casting aspersions on his professionalism. I find that poor on your part.

Can I politely point out the discussion here is mostly centred around the soft tissue / overuse injuries so the 5 Brisbane ACLs probably not that relevant.

 

[CarmenSandiego]

Im not sure how you or others come to a conclusion like this, how is someone the best in the business at one club and then awful at the next? Especially when its in relation to knowledge and experience in a field.

Could be outdated methods, could be different & unfamiliar squad to work with.

Could be as simple as right place, right time; which happens all the time in peoples careers, even in an elite environment.

 

[Coona Blues]

Just my opinion but this is one of the more ill-informed posts I've seen in a while.

Motlop was noted by everyone as having had a sensational preseason and gotten himself super fit. You're then casting aspersions on his professionalism. I find that poor on your part.

Can I politely point out the discussion here is mostly centred around the soft tissue / overuse injuries so the 5 Brisbane ACLs probably not that relevant.

So we dump on the usual suspects and overlook how a kid has a three month soft tissue issue. I don’t buy in to the hype over “sensational” preseasons, a couple of highlights in front of the Big Footy pundits surely warrants elevated status. I simply asked the question. Natural talent and exuberance can produce impressive views in pre season, but can also paper over a lack of preparedness. I don’t profess to know he is/was underprepared, but battle weary players take months to get over hammy niggles, nit kids. Motlop is the great hope around here and some, clearly you feel he is untouchable. There has been a significant “radio silence” on the lad.

The Lions reference was to identify the random nature of injuries.

To suggest I am ill-informed for raising what should be obvious questions is, to say the least, very poor form. I am as well informed as any on here without a direct connection to our inner sanctum. I utilise my copious amounts of inactive and unstimulated time to stay informed on the Blues and many aspects of the game which can provide a little distraction year to year, notably young talent pre and post draft. I don’t claim to be a guru, but am better informed than most through regular research.

I am usually more optimistic than pessimistic so abhor the Russell pile on. The criticisms of the club for retaining injury prone players are now relevant whereas they were not previously as we had little list pressure, and it made no sense to part with quality players. I love the notion of Motlop and support him 100%. That does not lead me to overlook some of his half hearted efforts in both the seniors and seconds over his time with us. He has needed to grow and become more professional and I do question the hype that some have applied. I want him to fulfill his potential, not become another highlights reel who can go missing when needed. I do not assume the worst of him, but I do not elevate on potential and hype. The question was valid. Fan adulation can often seduce young players to believe they have reached their optimum level well before they have and can sometimes ensure they never do reach those levels.

I was not looking for an in depth debate on Jesse Motlop, but 20 year olds should not miss half a season with soft tissue issues if properly prepared. That has relevance to the rhetoric on our S&C record. He is not one of the 25yo plus regularly sidelined with soft tissue complaints who are either fragile, lazy or both. He is an outlier to the debate, but his status going forward is perhaps more relevant than the historic LTI brigade.

 

[Beyond Blue]

Can I politely point out that we have lamented the minuscule injury list Brisbane managed in recent seasons. Can I also point out they have five players currently out with ACL’s (as well as some concussions, soft tissue, shoulders and “lesser” knees)

It is not precise science. It is preparation, it is player make-up, mentally and physically, it is game style, it is game surface and primarily pure dumb luck.

The AFLPA has shifted the boundaries re pre season availability of players. Pre season doesn’t commence at the beach, in the sand dunes etc with weeks of running before the balls come out. Our boys voluntarily presented for their own self managed sessions before they were required to front. Presumably not under the supervision of the S&C group. They had their individual programs tailored by Russell and co. to be completed by day one of official training. Some are diligent, some are not, some do considerably in excess of what is required.

Cotts has a navicular stress reaction, if memory serves me correctly he had something similar a year or two ago. The bloke works his ar** off to create a career. Is that on the S&C team?

The serial under preparers that to a man are unavailable for large chunks of pre season or more critically early season are infuriating. Do they get treated with kid gloves or a whip cracking? Is there a right or wrong answer. McGovern had a much better season last year, a contract season, did the penny drop or…? Martin, Marchbank and Cuningham again not ready round one.

The bloke who has escaped scrutiny is the youngster Motlop. How does a twenty year old take half a season to front up from a soft tissue injury? Has he needed extended time in the cage? He should have had a body of work leading in to the season. If there is any chink in his armour, I hope an end of year clean out serves as a wake up.

We also need to remember that Russell heads up a program for the Carlton College of Sport and his remuneration is not solely from the footy program. I do fear as a bloke at the cutting edge and having an outlet to explore perhaps the next iteration in his field, he has had an element of trial and error with some preparations.

We have been through the Teague years where he denied Russell access to the players and insisted on availability. We are now in a window where intensity has been heightened and the list has been readied for battle rather than fronting half prepared. Perhaps supporters should be lauding the elevation of the bottom rated players in the team who have all elevated due to that enhanced preparation.

Presumably Russell has been given the ability to veto player availability and to have them ready before playing. Clearly a policy devised to have everyone available at the business end of the season. Expectation is that McGovern, Saad and Martin will be available consistently from here. Fogarty clearly ready to comeback and we are treating conservatively, perhaps similar for Motlop. Marchy and Cuners going down again doesn’t bode well for their future.

The outliers at the moment for me are Williams and Cerra. Clearly Cerra has an underlying issue, perhaps back, which is weakening his hammy “integrity”. This needs to be sorted and I would like to think we are investigating. Williams has had an excellent build up to the season and his niggles are galling. Groin “awareness” I think smacks of a bloke coming off injury after injury and not confident in his body. I am not a fan of Voss and Hamill playing him as an accountable defender. He is a runner, a rebounder, a link player first and foremost. It is nit like we are short of blokes able to do a negating role. Saad when right can do a close checking role, but Newman, Cincotta, Boyd and Cowan are all decent, or better, stoppers.

I remain confident that, with a couple of exceptions, we will have a high level of availability in the back end of the season.

Obviously players have some responsibility in their preparation and injury management but I can’t single out Motlop for criticism. He is still learning. He had a good preseason, then hurt his toe in the last scratch match and then did his hamstring coming back from that. Shit happens sometimes.

I’d be far more inclined to be annoyed with Cerra. He has 5 hamstring strains in 2 and a half years yet he still can’t get his recovery right. Surely after so many occurrences an experienced professional would have learnt when his hamstring is ok or not? I hope they don’t play him until after the bye.

Nothing surprises me with Williams since he turned up unfit in his first year after getting big dollars and talking himself up as a midfielder only to get banished to backline when it was clear he wasn’t up to playing in the midfield regularly. The contrast to a professional like Saad is stark.

Also on the Brisbane situation with ACLs, I think most posters can acknowledge that this type of injury is more bad luck than anything, and not at all comparable to the soft tissue epidemic we are experiencing which IMO is a lot more to with players strength and conditioning.

 

[Arr0w]

I mentioned King because what motivation has he got to lie? And he's watched all our competitors train also.

But it came from Voss's own mouth.

As I stated previously, King may have been present at our main session and the individual sessions he witnessed, may not have been their main session

Nor do I think he travelled interstate to witness 6 other teams during a random training session

"We asked a lot of them last year, we’ve asked even more this year and we’ve asked them to step up and they have,” Voss said.

“If I had to say one thing, we weren’t able to sustain the intensity from session to session and why that’s important is because we have a 23-round home and away season.

We're in a good place: Voss finalises pre-season motives

Michael Voss wraps up the pre-season with the key learnings he's taken out of the blocks.

www.carltonfc.com.au

No where did he state it was or would be of greater intensity, moreso consistency

I'm not sure what else you want. If something doesn't suit your argument you simply deny it.

I don't want anything, nor do I deny facts.

What you have shared is a morsel from King, one session over a 5 month off season and a statement from Voss which is more akin to consistency, rather than harder or overworked

 

[bigblueboy]

Rightly or wrongly, there will be some taking the fall for our bad injury run. Players and staff.
Going to be an interesting offseason - there's enough evidence available that even a premiership will not cover up the need for change.

 

[Garters]

Unless you’re Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder how can you not see we have way too many injuries …

If it’s true that Russell is on big dollars then he’s surely one to look at more closely.

Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder listen to SEN so they too understand our predicament

 

[toddkurnski]

The Lions reference was to identify the random nature of injuries.

Not many people arguing about ACLs or collision injuries though. I think the majority get the randomness of that. It's pretty clear soft tissue (calves, hamstrings, glutes etc) are happening too frequently and feet and back stress reactions/fractures as well. So I personally have moved away from bad luck/random/player type after years now of soft tissue and stress related injuries occurring at a much higher rate for a sustained period against AFL averages. It's in my opinion impossible to happen without having a root cause or causes specific to the way Carlton operates.

This year with hamstrings we have already lost approximately 28 weeks in 9 rounds. The AFL average from 2021 was 21. From a couple of years earlier it was 19. We are already at 28! 3 or 4 more (average is 6 for a season) is pretty conceivable with 60% of the season to go and we'll hit 40 for the year, twice the average.

Another poster and I went through and listed foot and back issues. They occur too infrequently within the AFL such that there does not appear to be enough data to collect that will provide meaningful statistics, so its really just Carlton that appears to be the ultimate outlier for these type of injuries.

With the above in mind, we clearly have a problem. What causes these injuries?

I'm not fit to tie an experts bootlaces but the occurrence of these injuries, from what I know, the rate they occur tends to increase with repetitive stress and high-impact activities. From what I have seen here and elsewhere that would be
Training intensity and volume
Inadequate warm-up and cool-down
Poor conditioning and fitness levels
Lack of individualized training programs
Inadequate medical and sports science support
Playing surface
Player workload management
Player preparation and recovery practices
Sudden increases in training intensity
Biomechanical issues

All of those apart from one would appear to be items directly under the control or related to the HPT. Whatever is being done at the moment, is not getting the results anyone in the Club would want in a push for a flag.

Thankfully I believe we have a management team competent enough to navigate this. I think those in charge will investigate why its happened, what needs to change and take action to get a better outcome. They won't wish, hope, pray for things to magically improve without changing the status quo.

 

[BluStreak]

So do I. They will manage it by several ways, one of them by replacing personnel, of that personnel 1 of them will be Russell.

That is a very definitive statement. You are saying that Carlton will replace Russell at the end of the year.

 

[CarmenSandiego]

That is a very definitive statement. You are saying that Carlton will replace Russell at the end of the year.

**** it. Gotta risk it to get the biscuit - I'm calling it!

 

[Arr0w]

I've noticed the goal posts continue to shift

From blaming Russell for overworking players that caused ACL injuries, to now conceding that they are not focusing on impact injuries

I sense that the sack Russell contingent, are blaming him and him alone, especially when I see comments like "we couldn't do any worse"

It doesn't faze me if Russell is moved on, but if that's the case, I believe it would need to also include other staff in that department and the injury prone players

 

[teddy-hopkins]

I've noticed the goal posts continue to shift

From blaming Russell for overworking players that caused ACL injuries, to now conceding that they are not focusing on impact injuries

I sense that the sack Russell contingent, are blaming him and him alone, especially when I see comments like "we couldn't do any worse"

It doesn't faze me if Russell is moved on, but if that's the case, I believe it would need to also include other staff in that department and the injury prone players

I agree with that. The situation is so bad the club needs to think about this from all angles.

The overall strategy for preseason, delist players who can't get on the park, recruit guys with good injury records, the medical dept, etc. and anything else.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

So we dump on the usual suspects and overlook how a kid has a three month soft tissue issue. I don’t buy in to the hype over “sensational” preseasons, a couple of highlights in front of the Big Footy pundits surely warrants elevated status. I simply asked the question. Natural talent and exuberance can produce impressive views in pre season, but can also paper over a lack of preparedness. I don’t profess to know he is/was underprepared, but battle weary players take months to get over hammy niggles, nit kids. Motlop is the great hope around here and some, clearly you feel he is untouchable. There has been a significant “radio silence” on the lad.

The Lions reference was to identify the random nature of injuries.

To suggest I am ill-informed for raising what should be obvious questions is, to say the least, very poor form. I am as well informed as any on here without a direct connection to our inner sanctum. I utilise my copious amounts of inactive and unstimulated time to stay informed on the Blues and many aspects of the game which can provide a little distraction year to year, notably young talent pre and post draft. I don’t claim to be a guru, but am better informed than most through regular research.

I am usually more optimistic than pessimistic so abhor the Russell pile on. The criticisms of the club for retaining injury prone players are now relevant whereas they were not previously as we had little list pressure, and it made no sense to part with quality players. I love the notion of Motlop and support him 100%. That does not lead me to overlook some of his half hearted efforts in both the seniors and seconds over his time with us. He has needed to grow and become more professional and I do question the hype that some have applied. I want him to fulfill his potential, not become another highlights reel who can go missing when needed. I do not assume the worst of him, but I do not elevate on potential and hype. The question was valid. Fan adulation can often seduce young players to believe they have reached their optimum level well before they have and can sometimes ensure they never do reach those levels.

I was not looking for an in depth debate on Jesse Motlop, but 20 year olds should not miss half a season with soft tissue issues if properly prepared. That has relevance to the rhetoric on our S&C record. He is not one of the 25yo plus regularly sidelined with soft tissue complaints who are either fragile, lazy or both. He is an outlier to the debate, but his status going forward is perhaps more relevant than the historic LTI brigade.

It was just my opinion. But yes still one of the most ill-informed posts I've read. I think the club asked a lot of the players through preseason. Motlop did all of the sessions, he's not an overly injury prone player and is one of many to get overuse injuries at the START of the season.

Yet somehow you've singled him out for a personal attack as if it's his fault.

I'm not saying you are ill-informed but that post certainly was on this occasion.

 

[jackn]

Can I politely point out that we have lamented the minuscule injury list Brisbane managed in recent seasons. Can I also point out they have five players currently out with ACL’s (as well as some concussions, soft tissue, shoulders and “lesser” knees)


Cotts has a navicular stress reaction, if memory serves me correctly he had something similar a year or two ago. The bloke works his ar** off to create a career. Is that on the S&C team?

Expectation is that McGovern, Saad and Martin will be available consistently from here.

Nobody would have any issue if we were having a bad year injury wise. The issue is we're having a normal injury year, whilst also struggling to field a team.

Surely a stress fracture from overuse is about as "on the s&c team" as anything gets?

Expectation not reached, less than 7 hours later.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Jack Martin

21

Jack Martin

Age

29

Ht

186cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.2

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

6.3

4star

M

4.9

5star

T

3.7

5star

G

0.9

4star

D

14.9

4star

K

7.9

3star

HB

7.0

4star

M

4.3

4star

T

3.6

4star

G

1.1

5star

D

8.2

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

3.6

3star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.6

3star

with the calf strain again. I mean ... seriously? * this.

 

[Arr0w]

Maybe we should employ Mrs Martin

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Maybe we should employ Mrs Martin

What does she do?