Sayers v Behrendorff

[Aussie_boy]

Too hard to tell, both great bowlers. Personally I think Sayers deserves a chance before Dorff due to being dominant for a sustained period. Dorff should get a look in for upcoming ODI's as he is IMO more of a white ball bowler (that's not to say he's not a quality Red ball bowler too).

 

[southernswannies]

Wont matter with Bird in the squad. Even then, Birds instadropped when Patto and Cummins are ready.

 

[ROOTA#6]

Wont matter with Bird in the squad. Even then, Birds instadropped when Patto and Cummins are ready.

I like the difference that bird brings. Makes the batsmen have to change slightly

 

[Carlos Danger]

If it is with pink balls sayers easily.
Still sayers with red ball but it's closer

 

[TommyD13]

I think the dorff has a lot more penetration which is crucial at the next level. Feel Sayers is a gun shield bowler but just dont see him as an Australian player. Also being 29 does not helo

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

'dorff seems to have ability to generate lift on dead tracks, something I haven't seen Sayers do. That gives him an edge in more environments for mine, especially when the ball is doing little in the air. Sayers is probably better when the ball is swinging but otherwise behind.

Maybe its just that I've seen more of Behrendorff in recent years but I have him ahead in most circumstances.

 

[Docker82]

I see Starc, Hazlewood, Bird, Cummins and Pattinson as the best fast bowlers in Australia.

Behrendorff and Sayers along with Tremain are the next level down. Guys like Worrall, Boland and Mennie were never up to it and never will be. Sayers will be picked on in swinging conditions if still in form and enough of the top group are injured although if Starc is injured the temptation of a left armer might get Behrendorff the nod particularly on a bouncier wicket. Tremain is quietly going about his business. Failed in SA because he's not a limited overs bowler. If the selectors hadn't made that mistake he'd be in the same conversion.

Also to those saying Behrendorff is not getting a game because he's not from NSW. Give up - he's born in NSW and grew up in the ACT. Moved to WA as a youngster having played for ACT at youth level.


On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Hamingja]

Sayers = Copeland.

Behrendorff by miles and miles.

 

[JackOutback]

If fit, Dorff and not by a little bit. That's a big if though.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

If fit, Dorff and not by a little bit. That's a big if though.

Yep but Dorff would need to play a good few games in a row first, and not just 2-3.

 

[Carbine Chaos]

A fit Paris is ahead of both Sayers and Behrendorff. On potential, at least.

He could be a quality international bowler. Massive ifs, sadly.

 

[Hellgood]

Behrendorff comfortably in consideration of applicable skill for the highest level. Has been performing strongly across all formats for a few years now and about time he was recognised by the selectors.

It does still somewhat depend on the composition of the attack though. If Bird (who has proven himself thus far superior to Sayers) was unavailable for a test, then Sayers as an immediate replacement would be fairly logical unless we were in a position where we needed additional firepower.

 

[psychobrown]

 

[Damon_3388]

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on the two clear standout pace bowlers of the current Shield season

I'd say despite not taking any big bags, Chris Tremain is ahead of Behrendorff as far as this season goes (mainly because literally half of the latter's wickets for the season came in one match), and not really as far behind Sayers as their wicket totals would make you believe, due to the big difference in overs bowled (due to Victoria's bowling depth). In fact, Tremain is actually taking wickets at a slightly better rate than Sayers this year:

Sayers - 8 matches, 332.0 overs bowled, 50 wickets, 16.66 average, 39.84 strike rate, 2.50 economy rate

Tremain - 7 matches, 219.1 overs bowled, 34 wickets, 17.47 average, 38.68 strike rate, 2.71 economy rate

Behrendorff - 5 matches, 139.4 overs bowled, 14.75 average, 29.93 strike rate, 2.95 economy rate

Simon Mackin and Kane Richardson are both having very good seasons as well. Australia's pace bowling depth is looking strong.

 

[Docker82]

I'd say despite not taking any big bags, Chris Tremain is ahead of Behrendorff as far as this season goes (mainly because literally half of the latter's wickets for the season came in one match), and not really as far behind Sayers as their wicket totals would make you believe, due to the big difference in overs bowled (due to Victoria's bowling depth). In fact, Tremain is actually taking wickets at a slightly better rate than Sayers this year:

Sayers - 8 matches, 332.0 overs bowled, 50 wickets, 16.66 average, 39.84 strike rate, 2.50 economy rate

Tremain - 7 matches, 219.1 overs bowled, 34 wickets, 17.47 average, 38.68 strike rate, 2.71 economy rate

Behrendorff - 5 matches, 139.4 overs bowled, 14.75 average, 29.93 strike rate, 2.95 economy rate

Simon Mackin and Kane Richardson are both having very good seasons as well. Australia's pace bowling depth is looking strong.

Let's not overhype shield performances. Mennie was one of the leading wicket takers last year.

Continued first class performance is required IMO. Two seasons at the very least unless your talent is on a different level like Starc, Hazlewood, Cummins and Pattinson were. These three guys we are talking about (Tremain, Behrendorff, Sayers) it's fair to say aren't as naturally gifted but you can become a successful test cricketer from a big further back. Bird would be the best recent example but tbh he's not from a huge group.

I don't know why Mennie was ever picked. Anyone could see he wasn't as good as Bird. I can't see Kane Richardson being any different if the selectors pick him tbh. Both just lack the wicket taking balls that the eight blokes above I've mentioned have IMO.

 

[Damon_3388]

Let's not overhype shield performances. Mennie was one of the leading wicket takers last year.

Continued first class performance is required IMO. Two seasons at the very least unless your talent is on a different level like Starc, Hazlewood, Cummins and Pattinson were. These three guys we are talking about (Tremain, Behrendorff, Sayers) it's fair to say aren't as naturally gifted but you can become a successful test cricketer from a big further back. Bird would be the best recent example but tbh he's not from a huge group.

I don't know why Mennie was ever picked. Anyone could see he wasn't as good as Bird. I can't see Kane Richardson being any different if the selectors pick him tbh. Both just lack the wicket taking balls that the eight blokes above I've mentioned have IMO.

Well if guys like Mennie (leading wicket-taker in the Shield last season), Richardson, etc. lack the "wicket-taking balls", what exactly are they doing to get so many people out at this level? Does it mean that our batsmen (the same pool where the Test team is drawn from, like the bowlers) are really that bad, and they're just making mistake after mistake, gifting otherwise merely above average bowlers a bunch of regular wickets?

For what it's worth, I'm not saying these guys should get selected ahead of Starc, Hazlewood, Bird, Siddle, Pattinson or Cummins, just saying the cupboard is by no means bare if there is a sudden injury crisis. I would trust some of these Shield bowlers would at least be competent at Test level, even if they aren't especially threatening (eg. Mennie against South Africa).

 

[Docker82]

Well if guys like Mennie (leading wicket-taker in the Shield last season), Richardson, etc. lack the "wicket-taking balls", what exactly are they doing to get so many people out at this level? Does it mean that our batsmen (the same pool where the Test team is drawn from, like the bowlers) are really that bad, and they're just making mistake after mistake, gifting otherwise merely above average bowlers a bunch of regular wickets?

For what it's worth, I'm not saying these guys should get selected ahead of Starc, Hazlewood, Bird, Siddle, Pattinson or Cummins, just saying the cupboard is by no means bare if there is a sudden injury crisis. I would trust some of these Shield bowlers would at least be competent at Test level, even if they aren't especially threatening (eg. Mennie against South Africa).

Shield is a different level to test cricket. A good test batsman might hit a ball for four that a first class batsman just blocks back down the pitch, they may be able to cope with balls first class batsman can't. Mennie for example bowls too slow for test cricket. McGrath was at times to but he had a bag of tricks Mennie could only dream of and his intelligence of when to use them was second to none.

Saying these guys would do well based off nothing but stats is flawed. Some players are very good at first class level but not cut out for test cricket. The selectors job is to sort those guys out from test quality players. If they didn't need to do this selectors wouldn't exist.

 

[Bradesmaen]

Behrendorff comfortably in consideration of applicable skill for the highest level. Has been performing strongly across all formats for a few years now and about time he was recognised by the selectors.

It does still somewhat depend on the composition of the attack though. If Bird (who has proven himself thus far superior to Sayers) was unavailable for a test, then Sayers as an immediate replacement would be fairly logical unless we were in a position where we needed additional firepower.

How the **** have you worked that one out? Pulled your finger out of your backside and put it to the wind and if the wind was blowing to the east, that's the correct answer?

There is negligible difference between the two in their careers. And across all formats doesn't really matter. It's across Shield that matters for tests. Sayers has also performed well for Australia A against SA A. His penetration is underrated because he bowls at a lower speed but it's like Shane Watson, it surprises the batsman because it looks faster than it is, having seen it first hand many times.

 

[Jbudds]

Sayers will get picked....when he's out of form. Thus justifying why he never should have been picked in the first place.

He will then never play again.

 

[Buzzasto DaSilva]

How the **** have you worked that one out? Pulled your finger out of your backside and put it to the wind and if the wind was blowing to the east, that's the correct answer?

While I don't disagree with your sentiment (Sayers has done everything he could have done at this stage to get himself a test call up)- that is probably the most ridiculous analogy I have ever heard.

 

[Kram]

Sayers will get picked....when he's out of form. Thus justifying why he never should have been picked in the first place.

He will then never play again.

lol.

 

[roscreasl98]

How the **** have you worked that one out? Pulled your finger out of your backside and put it to the wind and if the wind was blowing to the east, that's the correct answer?

There is negligible difference between the two in their careers. And across all formats doesn't really matter. It's across Shield that matters for tests. Sayers has also performed well for Australia A against SA A. His penetration is underrated because he bowls at a lower speed but it's like Shane Watson, it surprises the batsman because it looks faster than it is, having seen it first hand many times.

Looks fasters than it is, or is faster than it looks???

 

[Hellgood]

How the **** have you worked that one out? Pulled your finger out of your backside and put it to the wind and if the wind was blowing to the east, that's the correct answer?

There is negligible difference between the two in their careers. And across all formats doesn't really matter. It's across Shield that matters for tests. Sayers has also performed well for Australia A against SA A. His penetration is underrated because he bowls at a lower speed but it's like Shane Watson, it surprises the batsman because it looks faster than it is, having seen it first hand many times.

Well if you don't have a forests worth of chips on your shoulder I think it's a pretty simple one.

Using The_Reaper's excellent resource on the domestic cricket board:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...owling-stats-over-last-three-seasons.1130088/

Past three shield seasons Bird has taken 64 wickets in 16 matches at an average of 22.87 and a strike rate of 46. This summer in a season punctuated with Australian duties he has played four matches with 18 wickets at 26. He has performed more than creditably every time he has been able to break into the test side with 34 wickets in eight tests.

"SA great" Sayers in comparison in the previous three summers had taken 80 wickets from 23 matches at an average of 28 (SR 64). This summer he's up there with Behrendorff, Tremain and Mackin as amongst those vying for the mantle of best seamer in the competition. However given Bird's record it's pretty clear that he would be well and truly be a contender in this category had he been able to play a full shield season.

So Bird has a slightly better shield record, is actually proven at test level and has the experience of county cricket under his belt. Not to mention is a livelier bowler with greater pace and bounce that are good indicators of successful traits essential to succeed truly the top level. It's pretty clear cut.

 

[Bradesmaen]

Bird.. who plays in Tasmania. Where teams don't take a spinner.

 

[Scotland]

Sayers by miles.
50 wickets already this season, most wickets last season.
Dorff has one good game and all the Gropers get a bit excited. Plus he's been injured all year, could break down again anytime.

One good game.

114 wickets @ 22.6 with a SR of 43 in 27 FC matches.

Sayers has more runs (well, wickets) on the board but Behrendorff would be higher in the pecking order in the minds of the selectors.