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Schumacher what could have been.

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BomberFletch31 said:
Tell me something, ManWithNoName. Why do you credit Gerhard Berger as the man



yet Jean Todt doesn't get the same credit for turning around a dysfunctional Ferrari team?

If Schumacher gets the credit for turning Ferrari around, why doesn't Vettel get the credit for winning at STR?




If Berger and Alesi had the F2001, F2002 and F2004 to work with, I guarantee they would've won the title.

Driver standings only partially reflect the driver's talents. A driver is only as good as his car.
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I smell a troll.
 

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Oh yeah, also, Bomber's last post was fair enough. Yet, no one came up with a reasonable response, just a deflection. The hiring of Jean Todt is the single biggest reason for Ferrari's turnaround during the '90s, hence, why I included his hiring during my rundown of Ferrari's season's during the '90s.
 
imadodgyumpire said:
Oh yeah, also, Bomber's last post was fair enough. Yet, no one came up with a reasonable response, just a deflection. The hiring of Jean Todt is the single biggest reason for Ferrari's turnaround during the '90s, hence, why I included his hiring during my rundown of Ferrari's season's during the '90s.
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Actually Marlboro was the single biggest reason for Ferrari's turnaround, the amount of money they threw at Schumacher and the team was scary. So much cash they went from Scarlett to Marlboro Red.

Not saying Jean Todt wasn't a big part, but if you want the single biggest reason then Marlboro is it.

Perhaps I should start a thread saying Judd's a Dud, because that makes as much sense as the bagging of Schumacher.

He won 7 world titles and challenges in a Ferrari well before its peak, end of story.

I was worried in the late 90's that if Ferrari ever got a brilliant car together we were about to head into one of the biggest domination's in formula one. Schumacher was the best driver 1998 to 2005, Ferrari was the best car 2001 to 2005. Thats why formula 1 was so dominated in that time.
 
imadodgyumpire said:
I gave up on this thread after Simple Jack pwned us all.
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What? When?

lionbear said:
Actually Marlboro was the single biggest reason for Ferrari's turnaround, the amount of money they threw at Schumacher and the team was scary. So much cash they went from Scarlett to Marlboro Red.

Not saying Jean Todt wasn't a big part, but if you want the single biggest reason then Marlboro is it.

Perhaps I should start a thread saying Judd's a Dud, because that makes as much sense as the bagging of Schumacher.

He won 7 world titles and challenges in a Ferrari well before its peak, end of story.

I was worried in the late 90's that if Ferrari ever got a brilliant car together we were about to head into one of the biggest domination's in formula one. Schumacher was the best driver 1998 to 2005, Ferrari was the best car 2001 to 2005. Thats why formula 1 was so dominated in that time.
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I don't think anyone is saying Schumacher is a dud.

But lot's of people are doing the equivalent of saying 'Judd is the best ever, and to say anyone else is wrong' when you can make valid arguments for various other players.

The football equivalent would either be Swan (most disposals=wins) or Simon Black (Amongst the most decorated).
 
Simple Jack said:
What? When?
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Simple Jack said:
As fun as it is watching this shitfight from the sidelines, Schumi as the GOAT is fairly debatable. Certainly not the truism you're stating it to be.
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Like Caesar watching peasants fight to the death in a pointless contest, which it is.

lionbear said:
Actually Marlboro was the single biggest reason for Ferrari's turnaround

Not saying Jean Todt wasn't a big part, but if you want the single biggest reason then Marlboro is it.
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Marlboro joined in 97? Ferrari were already good, they just jumped on the bandwagon and helped turn it into a super bandwagon rocket. Ferrari were a headless chook when Todt was hired (hence, my reference in the other post) and immediately turned them to respectable. Not arguing, just saying.
 
Marlboro was already on board, but they threw a lot of money behind getting the high profile people that made them dominant, without them I defiantly don't think they would have been as good. Todt or no Todt the cash supply from Marlboro was the biggest factor.

I think Motor Sport is one sport where there can be no best ever, Schumacher is the best driver I have watched, what he did on wet tracks was unbelievable. I was too young to appreciate Senna and that is the only reason I don't rank him the same or higher then Schumacher.

Cars play so much in a drivers ability and record, to compare drivers is impossible. Did Schumacher deserve 7 titles yes. You make Alain Prost 15 years younger and have him join Formula 1 at the same time as Schumacher, we would be sitting here now discussing Senna's 7 World Titles, Schumacher's 4 titles and Prost's 3.

I guess I am surprised we can have so debate over the greatness of a man who won 7 world titles.
 
lionbear said:
I guess I am surprised we can have so debate over the greatness of a man who won 7 world titles.
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It's not that people are debating his greatness, it's that people are coming and saying 'he has the most titles so he's unquestionably the best ever'

It's effectively the Indian's SRT argument.
 
lionbear said:
Marlboro was already on board, but they threw a lot of money behind getting the high profile people that made them dominant, without them I defiantly don't think they would have been as good. Todt or no Todt the cash supply from Marlboro was the biggest factor.
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Interestingly, you may remember, once Marlboro left, Mclaren were good again!
 
Yes and Marlboro put 100% of there efforts into Ferrari further backing my point that Marlboro played a large part in Ferrari's recovery.
 
Marlboro wouldnt have come across if schumacher wasnt in the drivers seat. They wouldnt have wanted to be associated with losers. Hence why they left McLaren.
 

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It's all well and good having mountains of cash to throw at a Formula One team, but the team needs the right people to spend it in the right areas to make the car a winner. British American Tobacco bankrolled BAR-Honda for years and years without ever really achieving the success desired. Toyota ploughed millions upon millions into its Formula One program for mediocre results.

Jean Todt was a crucial hire by Ferrari. He managed to harness the super-egos of Schumacher, Brawn and Byrne into a combination that delivered success to Ferrari and its sponsors.

lionbear said:
I guess I am surprised we can have so debate over the greatness of a man who won 7 world titles.
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I'm not. Schumacher is a driver who polarises opinion markedly.

His acts of petulance on the track count against him (trying to drive Villeneuve off the race track in 97, driving Hill off the race track in 95, parking his busted Ferrari at a critical point on the Monaco circuit during qualifying to ensure nobody else could break his pole time, etc, etc), as does the fact that he ensured that his teammates could not fairly race him.

There are some fans (and I've met them on other forums) that would defend Schumacher to the death over what he's done, but there's no doubt in my mind that he's tarnished his legacy through some very selfish and unsportsmanlike acts, with the complicity of Ferrari.
 
Team DJ said:
Marlboro wouldnt have come across if schumacher wasnt in the drivers seat. They wouldnt have wanted to be associated with losers. Hence why they left McLaren.
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Marlboro actually paid Schumacher up front to come across, I believe it was an 8 figure or even 9 figure sum to get him.

Yes Schumacher did a lot of controversial stuff through his career, but lets not forget both Senna and Prost had the famous incidents in the last race for the year as well. It's part of racing (A very ugly part),
 
lionbear said:
Yes and Marlboro put 100% of there efforts into Ferrari further backing my point that Marlboro played a large part in Ferrari's recovery.
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You tried to turn what I stated (just pointing out the irony), into something that supports you pov? :confused: It didn't work.

Simple Jack said:
It's not that people are debating his greatness, it's that people are coming and saying 'he has the most titles so he's unquestionably the best ever'
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You just hit the triple 20.

Dixie Flatline said:
It's all well and good having mountains of cash to throw at a Formula One team, but the team needs the right people to spend it in the right areas to make the car a winner. British American Tobacco bankrolled BAR-Honda for years and years without ever really achieving the success desired. Toyota ploughed millions upon millions into its Formula One program for mediocre results.

Jean Todt was a crucial hire by Ferrari. He managed to harness the super-egos of Schumacher, Brawn and Byrne into a combination that delivered success to Ferrari and its sponsors.
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Phew, it's not just me that gets it.
 
Team DJ said:
Marlboro wouldnt have come across if schumacher wasnt in the drivers seat. They wouldnt have wanted to be associated with losers. Hence why they left McLaren.
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rotfl.gif


1. I suppose you have proof?
2. As someone else mentioned, when Marlboro left McLaren, they won a constructor's championship and two drivers championships.
 
ISnt it just a touch coincidental though that it took schumacher to sign for all of these other dominos to fall into place?

They had jean todt for a few years prior and continued to do eff all with him.
 
Dixie Flatline said:
I'm not. Schumacher is a driver who polarises opinion markedly.

His acts of petulance on the track count against him (trying to drive Villeneuve off the race track in 97, driving Hill off the race track in 95, parking his busted Ferrari at a critical point on the Monaco circuit during qualifying to ensure nobody else could break his pole time, etc, etc), as does the fact that he ensured that his teammates could not fairly race him.

There are some fans (and I've met them on other forums) that would defend Schumacher to the death over what he's done, but there's no doubt in my mind that he's tarnished his legacy through some very selfish and unsportsmanlike acts, with the complicity of Ferrari.
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:thumbsu:

Great post.

lionbear said:
Yes Schumacher did a lot of controversial stuff through his career, but lets not forget both Senna and Prost had the famous incidents in the last race for the year as well. It's part of racing (A very ugly part),
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The fact that Senna and Prost did it neither justifies nor excuses what Schumacher did. The old saying, "two wrongs don't make a right" comes to mind. The fact that others have done it before doesn't make it ok, and no, it isn't just a part of racing. Deliberately driving into your opponents with the intention of removing them from contention for the championship is an act of cowardice. As a Williams fan, it's not something I'll ever forget, or forgive.

Team DJ said:
ISnt it just a touch coincidental though that it took schumacher to sign for all of these other dominos to fall into place?

They had jean todt for a few years prior and continued to do eff all with him.
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Marlboro has been with Ferrari since ages before Schumacher joined. They didn't just come on board because Schumacher was there.
 

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BomberFletch31 said:
banghead.gif


I don't hate Schumacher because he's successful. I admire the success. What I hate is his complete lack of ethics and sportsmanship. :thumbsd:
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Do you have similar thoughts about Senna? It is well known that he deliberately drove Prost off the road and the documentay portrays that he had little regard for the safety of other drives.

What are your thoughts?
 
pavilion103 said:
Do you have similar thoughts about Senna? It is well known that he deliberately drove Prost off the road and the documentay portrays that he had little regard for the safety of other drives.

What are your thoughts?
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I wasn't an F1 fan when Senna was driving, but I don't worship Senna as a god, if that's what you mean.

Had I been watching F1 in the late 80s/early 90s, I probably would've been a Mansell fan, because he drove for Williams.
 
pavilion103 said:
Do you have similar thoughts about Senna? It is well known that he deliberately drove Prost off the road and the documentay portrays that he had little regard for the safety of other drives.

What are your thoughts?
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Senna only had the one indiscretion, which was caused by Prost screwing him in 89 and balestre just being a total self serving prick.

Schumacher has shown a pattern of unsportsmanlike behavior over his career
 

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