Section 0 and bans (request)

[Chameleon75]

You're quite likely right, however I've met many a professor whose knowledge was outdated. I'm not saying Dank is good, but there are plenty of people who are thoroughly knowledgeable without the title.

What I have heard regarding testosterone levels, fainting and the blood test results was reported and Wilcourt himself was on SEN as a guest of Mark Fine.

In the end it's a minefield and we won't know til much later.

Dr Robin J Willcourt
MB.BS, FRANZCOG, FACOG.

Dr Robin Willcourt has both Australian and American qualifications. He is a Registered Specialist in Obstetrics and Gynecology in Australia and the United States as well as a Specialist in AntiAging and Sports Medicine.

 

[Mr Mojo Risin]

Ummm, yes...

Not sure of your point unless you're thinking my point about titles was regarding Dr Wilcourt.

If so it wasn't, it was regarding Dank.

 

[Chameleon75]

Ummm, yes...

Not sure of your point unless you're thinking my point about titles was regarding Dr Wilcourt.

If so it wasn't, it was regarding Dank.

No point was just putting it there for background. Danks not a doctor though he's a biochemist by trade and was doing a phd in pharmacology. I have no doubt he knows his drugs.

But I'll still stick with my endocrinologist all the same thanks.

 

[Mr Mojo Risin]

No point was just putting it there for background. Danks not a doctor though he's a biochemist by trade and was doing a phd in pharmacology. I have no doubt he knows his drugs.

But I'll still stick with my endocrinologist all the same thanks.

You don't think someone specialising in anti-ageing would have a in-depth knowledge of hormones and how they affect the human body?

 

[Chameleon75]

You don't think someone specialising in anti-ageing would have a in-depth knowledge of hormones and how they affect the human body?

You don't think someone specialising in anti-ageing would have a in-depth knowledge of hormones and how they affect the human body?

If they are an accredited endocrinologist then yes. Remember the girl on the cosmetic counter is also in the anti aging field.

http://www.health.com/health/m/article/0,,20544045,00.html

Is anti aging a medical field? It's not accredited under any medical association that I'm aware of. It's not an area of study. There's no particular accreditation requirements that I'm aware of.

 

[Mr Mojo Risin]

If they are an accredited endocrinologist then yes. Remember the girl on the cosmetic counter is also in the anti aging field.

http://www.health.com/health/m/article/0,,20544045,00.html

Is anti aging a medical field? It's not accredited under any medical association that I'm aware of. It's not an area of study. There's no particular accreditation requirements that I'm aware of.

That is not correct. Maybe there is no formal name for the area of study. Dr Wilcourt being a specialist in that field is far different to the girl on the cosmetic counter.

All of this in any case is more supposition and not going to be resolved by us. Unknowns upon unknowns, it's what is most frustrating for everyone.

 

[Chameleon75]

That is not correct. Maybe there is no formal name for the area of study. Dr Wilcourt being a specialist in that field is far different to the girl on the cosmetic counter.

All of this in any case is more supposition and not going to be resolved by us. Unknowns upon unknowns, it's what is most frustrating for everyone.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Academy_of_Anti-Aging_Medicine

the field of anti-aging medicine is not recognized by established medical organizations, such as the American Board of Medical Specialties and the American Medical Association (AMA).

http://longevity.about.com/od/reviewsbooksandmore/gr/academy-anti-aging-medicine.htm

In short, this organization is an un-recognized organization (e.g. not an official medical specialty) with a journal that is not consider to be of high scientific quality

http://www.surgery.org/media/news-releases/anti-aging-medicine

Anti-aging medicine is not recognized as a specialty by the American Board of Medical Specialties. Doctors who practice anti-aging medicine use a range of treatments and therapies, including bioidentical hormones and supplements, that continue to be the subject of debate in the medical community.Using hormones to replace a deficiency is generally accepted by most physicians, said Dr. Lawrence Phillips, an endocrinologist at Emory University Hospital. But using hormones to battle old age or improve health in non-deficient individuals is unproven.No research has shown that hormone therapies add years to life or prevent age-related frailty, according to the National Institute on Aging (NIA), part of the federal government’s National Institutes of Health (NIH). Some hormones may have harmful side effects, according to the NIA, and the bioidentical hormones prescribed by many anti-aging doctors have not been subjected to rigorous testing for safety and efficacy.

I have no doubt that Dr willcourt is a fine physician. In fact he had a high position in a reputable hospital prior to moving into this business. I thought your question was about anti aging in general.

Given it's not a recognised medicine and doesn't fall under the ama and other organisations and it's research is not of high scientific value.

I'd rather stick with endocrinologists who are experts in this field and have the scientific research to back it up.

 

[Mr Mojo Risin]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Academy_of_Anti-Aging_Medicine



http://longevity.about.com/od/reviewsbooksandmore/gr/academy-anti-aging-medicine.htm



http://www.surgery.org/media/news-releases/anti-aging-medicine



I have no doubt that Dr willcourt is a fine physician. In fact he had a high position in a reputable hospital prior to moving into this business. I thought your question was about anti aging in general.

Given it's not a recognised medicine and doesn't fall under the ama and other organisations and it's research is not of high scientific value.

I'd rather stick with endocrinologists who are experts in this field and have the scientific research to back it up.

Nice research. Worth noting that just because it doesn't fall under the AMA, that doesn't mean there is not scientific research and medical knowledge applied to the study of the field.

 

[IanW]

Nice research. Worth noting that just because it doesn't fall under the AMA, that doesn't mean there is not scientific research and medical knowledge applied to the study of the field.

Clearly, there is some link between supporting the Essendon Football Club and falling for the claims of unregulated snake oil salesmen.

Oh, and not giving a f.ck about the safety of the subjects of unregulated, multi-drug experiments in all sorts of half-known and experimental chemicals.

 

[mxett]

Clearly, there is some link between supporting the Essendon Football Club and falling for the claims of unregulated snake oil salesmen.

Oh, and not giving a f.ck about the safety of the subjects of unregulated, multi-drug experiments in all sorts of half-known and experimental chemicals.

Must be because we employ a junior doctor called Bruce Reid

 

[IanW]

Must be because we employ a junior doctor called Bruce Reid

Yes, but do they listen do him ? The EFC certainly dont read his letters.

 

[rumply]

Yes, but do they listen do him ? The EFC certainly dont read his letters.

Well youd know pal

 

[mxett]

Yes, but do they listen do him ? The EFC certainly dont read his letters.

How did he see a letter from WADA about AOD if he wasnt involved?

He was, certainly in the design of the program.

 

[Chameleon75]

Nice research. Worth noting that just because it doesn't fall under the AMA, that doesn't mean there is not scientific research and medical knowledge applied to the study of the field.

Yes the field of research is endocrinology, anti aging is the misuse of that research.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Clearly, there is some link between supporting the Essendon Football Club and falling for the claims of unregulated snake oil salesmen.

Oh, and not giving a f.ck about the safety of the subjects of unregulated, multi-drug experiments in all sorts of half-known and experimental chemicals.

Oh really?

Wow.

So you believe that the team you decide to go for in your formulative years then has an actual, causal effect on the way you interact with people, marketing campaigns and, more generally, on your entire ethical outlook for the rest of your life?

Not only is that impossible, it is also one of the stupidest hypotheses I've ever read.

 

[linuscambridge]

I'm no medical expert. I am happy to await for all the information before deciding how I feel about everything. Dank was already dismissed so directing my outrage at the club about him is pointless.

Hindsight heroes here will claim everyone knew Dank was dodgy when he was hired by Essendon but that is either bollocks or complete naivety.

Firstly it's a minefield for previous employers to give bad references to former employees, legal precedents show this.

Secondly those same people have no idea what length EFC went to to check his background yet. If anyone here has hired people before they would understand there is no clear cut way to find out this kind of information without breaking all kinds of personal information and discriminatory laws.

Should I direct my outrage at Robinson or Football Manager Hamilton? Well they are both not at the club as it stands.

How about Hird? For what exactly? Wanting to legally push boundaries while stipulating everything must be legal and safe for the players? For not being a medical expert? For trusting an employee to be competent in the job they are hired to do? For (allegedly) receiving injections he is allowed to have?

Maybe the last one, however he refutes it. Should I ignore that, assume he is lying and direct my outrage at him?o
There will be information that comes out, Essendon will be penalized in some manner. I am far from happy with the situation however I do not understand how general non directed outrage can benefit anyone. It sure as hell won't change the facts or make me feel any better.

The "pushing the boundrys" phrase I have heard from Hird is somewhat annoying. There is little if any wiggle room in the WADA code, the boundary is somewhat immovable. The code in essence says that if you take any drug that is a growth hormone or acts anything like a growth hormone then you are contravening the code whether that substance is named as banned in the code or not. If AOD9604 works as Dank intended, it is banned, unfortunately we have no clinical trials to tell us if it works, so it is banned. End of story.

 

[Mr Mojo Risin]

The "pushing the boundrys" phrase I have heard from Hird is somewhat annoying. There is little if any wiggle room in the WADA code, the boundary is somewhat immovable. The code in essence says that if you take any drug that is a growth hormone or acts anything like a growth hormone then you are contravening the code whether that substance is named as banned in the code or not. If AOD9604 works as Dank intended, it is banned, unfortunately we have no clinical trials to tell us if it works, so it is banned. End of story.

Pushing the boundaries is what every single elite athlete does from every sport. Without it they would not be elite. Not sure why it annoys you.

Drugs wise, there is an immovable boundary. You are correct. Hird wanted to go right up to what is legal but not beyond. It looks like that did not happen. Essendon will be penalised. How much will depend on a lot of things we do not yet know.

 

[linuscambridge]

Pushing the boundaries is what every single elite athlete does from every sport. Without it they would not be elite. Not sure why it annoys you.

Drugs wise, there is an immovable boundary. You are correct. Hird wanted to go right up to what is legal but not beyond. It looks like that did not happen. Essendon will be penalised. How much will depend on a lot of things we do not yet know.

I was talking about the boundary in relation to supplements. It annoys me because Hird made it sound like what you just said, like something athletes do every day. But it's nothing like that at all and anybody with an iPad and an hour to spare, and that includes Hird, should know where the line is.

 

[Mr Mojo Risin]

I was talking about the boundary in relation to supplements. It annoys me because Hird made it sound like what you just said, like something athletes do every day. But it's nothing like that at all and anybody with an iPad and an hour to spare, and that includes Hird, should know where the line is.

If that were true we would not have had 2 months of speculation and several more months in legal battle to come.

If you could know where the line stands with an iPad, I suggest you go to https://checksubstances.asada.gov.au/search.aspx and see how clear the line is regarding AOD9604.

Even with all the hoopla surrounding the substance it is still not listed in search results on their site. Sure there is a disclaimer at the top of the page, but that disclaimer does not make the line clear, it's simply a legal insurance policy for ASADA.

 

[Baldur]

Oh really?

Wow.

So you believe that the team you decide to go for in your formulative years then has an actual, causal effect on the way you interact with people, marketing campaigns and, more generally, on your entire ethical outlook for the rest of your life?

Not only is that impossible, it is also one of the stupidest hypotheses I've ever read.

Damn I know I should not but cannot resist

Cough Carlton

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Damn I know I should not but cannot resist

Cough Carlton

Oh gosh darn I really want to like this post

 

[CroZwell]

Damn I know I should not but cannot resist

Cough Carlton

the blues enjoy 16.5 premiership cups in their silverware cabinet

 

[IanW]

If that were true we would not have had 2 months of speculation and several more months in legal battle to come.

If you could know where the line stands with an iPad, I suggest you go to https://checksubstances.asada.gov.au/search.aspx and see how clear the line is regarding AOD9604.

Even with all the hoopla surrounding the substance it is still not listed in search results on their site. Sure there is a disclaimer at the top of the page, but that disclaimer does not make the line clear, it's simply a legal insurance policy for ASADA.

The line is absolutely white and bright.

No approval for human theraputic use. No approval under WADA.

Gosh. Calzada make AOD-9604. Maybe I could call them and ask if it's received approval for human theraputic use. Or maybe call ASADA.

Lookie this. Pre- sport drugs scandal news article on AOD-9604 (BTW, if you arent a morally challenged little shit looking for every advantage you can get, the fact this drug's referred to by a serial number should be an indication that maybe we should check a little further and make *sure* its completely on the up and up for use by professional sportsmen. On the other hand, most experimental drugs dont have reliable tests to find them).

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...-calzada-czd-35c/story-e6frg9lo-1225835816678

That should throw up some red flags too ... counterfeit injectible AOD-9604 ? I wonder if thats the stuff that Essendon was ... yeah.

Oops, all the safety studies were done on pill form. Wonder if the injections lead to anything else happening ?

But that never happened, because James Hird was determined to do Whatever It Takes.

As a result, a bunch of players are going to get banned.

And they were f.cking lucky that this level of lack of due diligence is only leading to bans, and that none of the players had any medical conditions that these sort of drugs can make worse.

 

[QuietB]

I was talking about the boundary in relation to supplements. It annoys me because Hird made it sound like what you just said, like something athletes do every day. But it's nothing like that at all and anybody with an iPad and an hour to spare, and that includes Hird, should know where the line is.

Even the use of the word supplements is a bit misleading. We are talking the use of pharmaceuticals here.

 

[QuietB]

If that were true we would not have had 2 months of speculation and several more months in legal battle to come.

If you could know where the line stands with an iPad, I suggest you go to https://checksubstances.asada.gov.au/search.aspx and see how clear the line is regarding AOD9604.

Even with all the hoopla surrounding the substance it is still not listed in search results on their site. Sure there is a disclaimer at the top of the page, but that disclaimer does not make the line clear, it's simply a legal insurance policy for ASADA.

Are you clear on the status of AOD now?

If clubs are going to use this stuff they need to do all the research that google detectives have done on this board to prove the status of AOD and then some. Accepting the word of the bloke who is probably making a killing out of administering it is not good enough and hardly an acceptable defence.