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[naughty monkey]

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
...<snip>..
If the collingwood midfielders worked inside our guys and read the taps better, - how is that our ruckman's fault?
...<snip>....

It's not, in one sense...

...But they nearly always tap the ball straight down or just in front of them. Everybody knows where the ball is going, including the opposition. That's the problem.

If your midfielders are constantly being worked to the outside (and McLeod is one of the worst for letting this happen to him) then MC/RB should give him a signal and tap the thing into space. Do it often enough and then the opposition players don't know where to position themselves. That's where you will retain the advantage, in that your midfielders know where the ball's going and the other team don't.

 

[macca23]

Originally posted by naughty monkey
It's not, in one sense...

...But they nearly always tap the ball straight down or just in front of them. Everybody knows where the ball is going, including the opposition. That's the problem.

If your midfielders are constantly being worked to the outside (and McLeod is one of the worst for letting this happen to him) then MC/RB should give him a signal and tap the thing into space. Do it often enough and then the opposition players don't know where to position themselves. That's where you will retain the advantage, in that your midfielders know where the ball's going and the other team don't.

I hope the AFC read your post, because this is exactly where we break down against Brisbane, Collingwood and Port.

Varying it as you've suggested would hand the edge back to us at the stoppages.

 

[Damp Squarie]

Originally posted by Kane McGoodwin
Then why are Saint Kilda not winning premierships...

I keep telling ya top draft picks are over rated

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
Ok, following your logic let's take this further then,

If the collingwood midfielders worked inside our guys and read the taps better, - how is that our ruckman's fault?

or are you saying that our ruckman tap to space, not looking for our guys, and the pies guessed better than our lot?

which is it?

I am saying the 1st one. Our ruckman should mix it up a bit more. Sometime its actually good to thump the ball forward rather than palm it down when its obvious the opposition midfielders have figured out our set up.

In general I have no problem with the tapwork of our ruckman. I think as far as tapwork goes we have the best combo in the league but I have a huge problem with their ability (or lack of) to offer anything in general play. As I said, when the ball is out of the ruck contest we are basically one player short because neither of our ruckman is good in field play. This is a problem that we didn't have with Rehn and Pittman.

Against Collingwood we won the tapout but got spanked in clearences. If we look at the tape again and stats for that matter Collingwood's ruckmen killed us in field play.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by naughty monkey
It's not, in one sense...

...But they nearly always tap the ball straight down or just in front of them. Everybody knows where the ball is going, including the opposition. That's the problem.

If your midfielders are constantly being worked to the outside (and McLeod is one of the worst for letting this happen to him) then MC/RB should give him a signal and tap the thing into space. Do it often enough and then the opposition players don't know where to position themselves. That's where you will retain the advantage, in that your midfielders know where the ball's going and the other team don't.

Spot on. Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by topjars
I keep telling ya top draft picks are over rated

Not overated, but Top draft picks Do Not Alone change club culture re attitude to success

 

[Crow-mosone]

Originally posted by naughty monkey
It's not, in one sense...

...But they nearly always tap the ball straight down or just in front of them. Everybody knows where the ball is going, including the opposition. That's the problem.

If your midfielders are constantly being worked to the outside (and McLeod is one of the worst for letting this happen to him) then MC/RB should give him a signal and tap the thing into space. Do it often enough and then the opposition players don't know where to position themselves. That's where you will retain the advantage, in that your midfielders know where the ball's going and the other team don't.

ok,
if that were true, and if it were I'd agree 100%, but it's not.

Clarke in particular is one of the most versatile and creative tap ruckman I have ever seen.
If our ruckman were so predictable, we would be poor in clearances and everyone could work us out. Now maybe Collingwood and brisbane's midfielders out work ours, in fact this is probably true, and if they do I am sick of hearing the criticism of our ruckman.
After all there isn't a decent ruckman between either Bris or Collingwood.
Let's look at the root of the problem.

Stiffy does have a point, it would be nice if they were dominant around the ground, but NOT at the expense of what a ruckman must do first, and best.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
ok,
if that were true, and if it were I'd agree 100%, but it's not.

Clarke in particular is one of the most versatile and creative tap ruckman I have ever seen.

Stiffy does have a point, it would be nice if they were dominant around the ground, but NOT at the expense of what a ruckman must do first, and best.

Robert Walls is Clarke's #1 fan when at Brisbane, Yet Mathews chose to trade him in favour of a more round the ground ruckman.
I know salary cap was the reason given for the trade, but you don't let required players go.

IMO Keating was a major factor in Brisbanes flag success, mnot due to just his rucking efforts but also his around the ground work.

Walls would have kept him, Mathews let him go - whos right??, who has the 3 flags?

 

[naughty monkey]

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
ok,
if that were true, and if it were I'd agree 100%, but it's not.

Clarke in particular is one of the most versatile and creative tap ruckman I have ever seen.
If our ruckman were so predictable, we would be poor in clearances and everyone could work us out. Now maybe Collingwood and brisbane's midfielders out work ours, in fact this is probably true, and if they do I am sick of hearing the criticism of our ruckman.
After all there isn't a decent ruckman between either Bris or Collingwood.
Let's look at the root of the problem.
...<snip>...

What are you supposed to do if the other teams are too stupid to work out where the taps are going or their smalls incapable of doing anything about it? This still amazes me.

Your attitude towards the ruckmen seems strange. If Clarke knows that the midfielders aren't getting to his taps first, then why wouldn't he try something else????? Why do you assume that it's all the midfielders fault?

Clearly the tap straight down is what they have been coached to do. The most frustrating thing is that there doesn't seem to be a Plan B on the rare occasions when this isn't working. Especially, as you say, "Clarke in particular is one of the most versatile and creative tap ruckman I have ever seen".

I'll say it again, The sole advantage a ruckman has in winning the tap is that his midfielders know where the ball is going and the others don't.

Perhaps i'll throw this back to you Crow-mosone:-

I think we all agree that the Crows nearly always have a decisive advantage in the hit-outs. But then they don't always win the clearances, why? And what can they do about it?

I only have this one (small) criticism of the AFC's ruck combination. I agree with you that their tap work is, on the whole, the best in the comp. But after the throw-up, ball-in etc they don't do anywhere near enough in general field play when compared to the Goodes, Brogans, Darcys, Kings, Ottens/Staffords, Gardiners etc. Unfortunately these days a ruckman is required to do more than just win the tap. And that's the biggest criticism that other people have of Clarke/Biglands.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Originally posted by naughty monkey
What are you supposed to do if the other teams are too stupid to work out where the taps are going or their smalls incapable of doing anything about it? This still amazes me.

Your attitude towards the ruckmen seems strange. If Clarke knows that the midfielders aren't getting to his taps first, then why wouldn't he try something else????? Why do you assume that it's all the midfielders fault?

Clearly the tap straight down is what they have been coached to do. The most frustrating thing is that there doesn't seem to be a Plan B on the rare occasions when this isn't working. Especially, as you say, "Clarke in particular is one of the most versatile and creative tap ruckman I have ever seen".

I'll say it again, The sole advantage a ruckman has in winning the tap is that his midfielders know where the ball is going and the others don't.

Perhaps i'll throw this back to you Crow-mosone:-

I think we all agree that the Crows nearly always have a decisive advantage in the hit-outs. But then they don't always win the clearances, why? And what can they do about it?

I only have this one (small) criticism of the AFC's ruck combination. I agree with you that their tap work is, on the whole, the best in the comp. But after the throw-up, ball-in etc they don't do anywhere near enough in general field play when compared to the Goodes, Brogans, Darcys, Kings, Ottens/Staffords, Gardiners etc. Unfortunately these days a ruckman is required to do more than just win the tap. And that's the biggest criticism that other people have of Clarke/Biglands.

Very good post NM!

We should actually be using a plan B against certain sides such as the Pies & Power, as they already combat our plan A. ie. Their midfielders know ehere our ruckman are tapping the ball, so winning the taps doesn't give us our usual advantage.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by naughty monkey
I only have this one (small) criticism of the AFC's ruck combination. I agree with you that their tap work is, on the whole, the best in the comp. But after the throw-up, ball-in etc they don't do anywhere near enough in general field play when compared to the Goodes, Brogans, Darcys, Kings, Ottens/Staffords, Gardiners etc. Unfortunately these days a ruckman is required to do more than just win the tap. And that's the biggest criticism that other people have of Clarke/Biglands.

My point all along. After ball-in, throw-up etc. out ruckmen are a liability.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
My point all along. After ball-in, throw-up etc. out ruckmen are a liability.

Then why was my comments re giving Biglands a stronger around the ground role considered harsh?

I agree with your comments, and the football dept's emphasis on recruiting big men who can take a grab, reflects their thoughts.

 

[Portia]

Originally posted by Kane McGoodwin
We should actually be using a plan B against certain sides such as the Pies & Power, as they already combat our plan A. ie. Their midfielders know ehere our ruckman are tapping the ball, so winning the taps doesn't give us our usual advantage.

It sounds like what you really need is a better ruck coach.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Originally posted by Porthos
It sounds like what you really need is a better ruck coach.

Would love to have Pitto back. At least we have got Micken away from being the forward coach though!

 

[Crow-mosone]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
Robert Walls is Clarke's #1 fan when at Brisbane, Yet Mathews chose to trade him in favour of a more round the ground ruckman.
I know salary cap was the reason given for the trade, but you don't let required players go.

I think you answered your own question here, and don't forget Brisbane got a pretty good price for Clarke.

IMO Keating was a major factor in Brisbanes flag success, mnot due to just his rucking efforts but also his around the ground work.

except that Keating rarely played last year, often being overlooked in favour of Beau Mcdonald and Charman.

Also note that in 4 finals matches, he had a sum total of 79 hit outs, and 4 marks!! not much around the ground there.

Walls would have kept him, Mathews let him go - whose right??, who has the 3 flags?

Well that's a bit unreasonable, Walls has a very good coaching record at Carlton and Brisbane. Matthews has coached 4 premiers and Walls 1, but that doesn't make him omniprescient.

Next you'll be telling me Sheedy is always right

Again, he was released for salary cap reasons I beleive.

 

[Crow-mosone]

Originally posted by naughty monkey
What are you supposed to do if the other teams are too stupid to work out where the taps are going or their smalls incapable of doing anything about it? This still amazes me.

well said, that's exactly it, our entire ruck division is smoke and mirrors.

Your attitude towards the ruckmen seems strange. If Clarke knows that the midfielders aren't getting to his taps first, then why wouldn't he try something else????? Why do you assume that it's all the midfielders fault?

Didn't you suggest our midfielders were being outworked? that was YOUR idea. which is it???? I happen to agree however.

Why do you presume he and biglands, aren't trying something different? It's up to the midfielder to work to position, and the ruckman to tap to him. On a given set piece, perhaps he will tap to space and wait for x to run on, but that's an individual play, not standard practice. If Clarke has nothing to work with, he will simply do his best to play to numbers.

Clearly the tap straight down is what they have been coached to do. The most frustrating thing is that there doesn't seem to be a Plan B on the rare occasions when this isn't working. Especially, as you say, "Clarke in particular is one of the most versatile and creative tap ruckman I have ever seen".

Again, I'd agree with you, IF what you say is actually correct.
Which is it now, the midfielder, the ruckman, OR the ruck coach's fault? You can't seem to agree.

I'll say it again, The sole advantage a ruckman has in winning the tap is that his midfielders know where the ball is going and the others don't

Sometimes the ball just has to be won, how much surprise do you think there is left in the game? So much media facility, coaching analysis, and overall in depth micro breakdown of every element suggests that simply relying on surprise won't cut it.

The ruckman and the midfielder work together, and sometimes either or both are just beaten. No need for a royal enquiry.

I think we all agree that the Crows nearly always have a decisive advantage in the hit-outs. But then they don't always win the clearances, why? And what can they do about it?

They do win the clearances much more often than not, and when it aint broke...
I don't think you can generalise about these things, what I do believe however is that compared to 2002, our midfield certainly underperformed through injury and personal form, I also think we were quite revolutionary in our preparations towards the clearance and this year the rest of the league caught up.
consider:
McLeod was Awol most of the year
Goody was injured thorughout
Sugar ain't there
Bode was terrible
And our ruckman won as much as the pill as previous...

I am sure we will come up with more sets, specific plays against those teams we fell down against, and perhaps some more defensive structures when it just ain't falling our way.

I only have this one (small) criticism of the AFC's ruck combination. I agree with you that their tap work is, on the whole, the best in the comp. But after the throw-up, ball-in etc they don't do anywhere near enough in general field play when compared to the Goodes, Brogans, Darcys, Kings, Ottens/Staffords, Gardiners etc. Unfortunately these days a ruckman is required to do more than just win the tap. And that's the biggest criticism that other people have of Clarke/Biglands.

Ummm not all those players you're talking about, had very good 2003's. Far, far from it.
However for every Goodes et al, there are other players,
McKernan
Everitt
Allen
Once very good players, whose major failing as ruckman is that they CAN'T ruck! now all recycled. I think a ruckman who cannot ruck can only flourish in a very specific game plan, and evolution requires that to change too often for a player to consistently thrive in that type of environment. Note, how many of the players listed, have shown any consistency over a long period? not many.

I do not believe the games has moved nearly as far in the Rucking as some suggest, rather it is no more than finely tuned.
The basic rules still apply.

 

[Crow-mosone]

I was just looking back thorugh a couple of things, and I found an interview with Biglands on the AFL website after he Clarke had smacked Luke Darcy and the doggies last year ...


"Earlier, Biglands was much more serious when commenting on a recent newspaper article about statistics revealing Adelaide’s big men – ruckmen and forwards – were not taking enough marks.

“We got judged pretty heavily on marks around the ground, and a lot of statistics were put on the line between Matty and myself when they were saying a few weeks ago that we need Wayne Carey because we weren’t taking enough contested marks or whatever,” he said.

“Look, Clarkey and I are ruckmen. We just try to do our job and influence the centre bounces so we get first hands on the ball.

“We’ve really aimed on that, worked hard on it, and we’re leading the AFL as a team in hit-outs, so we’ve just got to contribute on that.”

Did Biglands take the Carey reference personally?

“No, it was something brought about because our forward line doesn’t take that many contested marks,” he said.

I agree, obviously, but I also think the last sentence is what this is really about in a lot of ways.

 

[DaveW]

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
except that Keating rarely played last year, often being overlooked in favour of Beau Mcdonald and Charman.

Tends to happen when you're injured for long periods of time.

 

[Crow-mosone]

Originally posted by DaveW
Tends to happen when you're injured for long periods of time.

except he played 9 or 10 games in the QAFL or whatever it's called. He was most certainly out of favour

 

[naughty monkey]

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
Didn't you suggest our midfielders were being outworked? that was YOUR idea. which is it???? I happen to agree however.

On rare occasions, yes they are outbodied. And from my observation most of the outbodying happens as they bounce the ball, before the tap is actually taken. This only makes sense (for the opposition to get inside of their opponent) if they know where the bloody thing is going! More variety in the placement of the tap from RB and MC and the opposition won't know what to do before the tap.

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
Why do you presume he and biglands, aren't trying something different? It's up to the midfielder to work to position, and the ruckman to tap to him. On a given set piece, perhaps he will tap to space and wait for x to run on, but that's an individual play, not standard practice. If Clarke has nothing to work with, he will simply do his best to play to numbers.

Because my observations last year told me they didn't. I reckon i could count on one hand the number of times i saw the ruckman hit to space when they had the choice. Whilst I agree the midfielder needs to make the correct position, if they can't/aren't wouldn't you try something different if you were the ruckman? That, to me, is just common sense. Surely MC and RB can show some initiative here and work it out for themselves on the night.

In that Collingwood match in particaular or the Kangaroos game at home late in the year we would have been far better off if we had actually lost the hit-out.

If you are lucky enough to have FoxFooty at home watch either of these games whenever they happen to be on and see how many times our ruckman palmed the ball straight down...to the opposition.

 

[naughty monkey]

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
...<snip>...
Again, he was released for salary cap reasons I beleive.

That was only for the media's benefit.
What Matthews said in an interview just after Clarke had been traded I think is closer to the truth.

"....Clarke took 34 marks last year, 3 of those were contested...."

This year he managed to double the number of contested marks he took, but only managed 18 over all.

 

[Alex99]

well this is my adelaide crows best 22 side for the season 2004. It might not be the same as others but l am giving some different players a go and thinking of years to come.

F R Burnes ..... W Carey.......S Welsh

Hf G johncock....I perrie.........T Edwards

C B Rillie...........M Ricciuto......B Burton

Hb S Goodwin....K Mcgregor....T Hentschel

B M Stevens....N Bassett......B hart

R R Biglands M Bode.....A Mcleod

I K Massie M Clark N Smart J Schuback


l have named Mark Stevens in the back pocket so he can just run streight at the ball and not have to worry about someone falling on top of him everytime he go near the ball.

Simon Goodwin should play at half back flank so he can become an aggresive running player and not have to worry about a tagger

although Brett Burton is on the wing, my prefered postion for him would be at full forward but with Carey still their he has to have that postion. If Burton played full forward he could kick up to 80-90 goals a year. He kicked 56 in 12 games 2001

well that is just some of my suggestions please feel free to telll me l have no ider about team selections....because everyone has thir own suggestions....so thank

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by naughty monkey
That was only for the media's benefit.
What Matthews said in an interview just after Clarke had been traded I think is closer to the truth.

"....Clarke took 34 marks last year, 3 of those were contested...."

This year he managed to double the number of contested marks he took, but only managed 18 over all.

Spot on
Gets back to individual coaching philosophies, but I agree 100% with Mathews.
Someone like Goodes gives you effectively an extra tall player, coaches have to allocate a tall to stopping. In our case, we effectively play one player short, because our ruckman pose little threat. Has a huge effect on the game strategies applied.

Thats why our recruiting of bigmen has had an extra emphasis on contested marking.

 

[macca23]

Originally posted by crows98



l have named Mark Stevens in the back pocket so he can just run streight at the ball and not have to worry about someone falling on top of him everytime he go near the ball.

Simon Goodwin should play at half back flank so he can become an aggresive running player and not have to worry about a tagger

although Brett Burton is on the wing, my prefered postion for him would be at full forward but with Carey still their he has to have that postion. If Burton played full forward he could kick up to 80-90 goals a year. He kicked 56 in 12 games 2001

well that is just some of my suggestions please feel free to telll me l have no ider about team selections....because everyone has thir own suggestions....so thank

Some of those placements are pretty good, as is the 22.

The Burton comment is a very interesting one ideed.

Players that you haven't got in your 22 that others might consider should be (which doesn't make it right) are Stenglein, Begley, Ladhams and Torney, with Stenglein the most notable of these.

 

[Alex99]

Stengline should move to a defender now........he is being found out as a tagger

the rest wont make the crows a better side....they are just good team players