Coaching Staff Senior Coach: John Worsfold - Thank you John

[TheGrizz]

I would think the blueprint you refer to is more like what Essendon did in 1992. We'd just lost Watson and then we starting phasing out T and A Daniher, Madden, Ezard, Hamilton; those sorts.

...And look how well it turned out. Throwing all the kids in one team with no experience around them wont help, but not playing them at all wont either. A balance needs to be found but Woosha has shown an unwillingness to try it so far in favour of fringe senior players.

We dont need a full rebuild. At least not yet.
The truth is we dont know what we have exactly with so many of our younger players. I think we are 3 or 4 B+ to A-grade players from being top 4. Lets see if any of the guys we have can get to that point before we blow everything up.

 

[BrunoV]

I dont ever think we should ever 'tank' in the same sense that got melbourne fined and carlton should have been.
That involved
- playing players purposely out of position with an intention for them to fail (Jamar at fullback, jordie mckenzie on n.riewoldt for example),
- continuing with players whom they knew wouldnt make the cut knowing they would help the team underperform and
- consistently and purposely ignore good form in the vfl.
- It also included ostracizing senior players like James McDonald, mclean, Yze and Cameron Bruce.
That method will only doom us for failure as you can see it took melbourne 10 years and 3 coaches to move past it. If thats what you mean by 'tank' BrunoV then your nuts.

What i would support though is short of tanking but looking to 2019.
Play as many kids as the team can support, if you can make a choice between youth and a senior fringe player (Green, Brown and increasingly Myers) then you always pick the former.
Emphasis is on game style and fundamentals. We should always look to win, but if we dont then the process of how we played, education of the younger players and our improvement from the week before is more important.
Long, Redman, Clarke, Laverde, langford and guelfi should be given extended runs where possible. They still need to earn games in the VFL but when they do we dont wait for a spot to open up. We make one by sacrificing a player who may not deserve to be dropped but is clearly fringe (Brown, Dea, McKernan or Myers).
We wont make finals with the run home that we have, i believe. Green, Myers, Dea amd Brown likely wont be here in 2 years. Why wait till then to blood kids. Start now.
Maybe hold 4-5 spots for younger players over and ritate them through in 4-5 game blocks to ensure they dont burn out is another idea.

Again you arent trying to lose or improve draft position, you are building for 10 games and rewarding good practices amd improvement in youngsters. The draft benefits are a fortunate byproduct.

It's clearly not what I am suggesting because almost every post I've made on the point, insofar as it relates to us, contains a part saying that 'tanking' (i.e. selecting the young players who are more suited to playing AFL in 2018) improves our performances. We're a better team tomorrow as we're a better team in two weeks time when we select a side for the future because the players we select are better players.

The reason it's tanking is because of the shift in attitude of the coaches, it has nothing to do with the players. For the coaches to select the side they just selected indicates that they don't trust the youth to win a game, put the sheer stupidity of that position to one side for now.

How else can you explain bringing Myers straight back into the side when he was average in the VFL? Why reward Josh Green for being average so that he can come in and play a 'good' game that is the equivalent of Laverde's poor-average games? Why can't Long get rewarded for being average?

 

[AcuteWhistle]

Good discussion. It's all very frustrating & if we take a step back again tomorrow, as I suspect we will, where to then? Feels like we are chasing our tails atm.

 

[BrunoV]

I agree to a point. Yes we have tried to hang on too long in the past and stuck with players we should have not but unless you have 2 or 3 wins at half way then you do not give in before then. We lose on Sunday then yes they start looking forward. We have Eagles away and then North after the bye. That will likely finish us off. I have no issue with trying to win this week. Being 5-7 half way is not hopeless.
Our problem is now is unique in the fact that we are in limbo because of what the club created off the field . In some ways it is likely we would have been better served if Hooker went West , If Hurley went where ever and we got picks for them.
The problem is they made some list mistakes at the end of the last 2 seasons. Myers should have only been given 2 years. They should have really kept Bird even though he would have been a 1 year list plug.

The question will be what we do if we beat the Lions but then get put away by the Eagles and North. Giving us 8 games to reward some players who have been doing the right thing in the VFL. With Redmond getting a shot this week it is only really Jake Long out of the form VFL players who has missed out given Francis is only approaching AFL level now.

I wasn't ignoring this post. I would like but I can't agree that we should wait, we're always waiting for one reason or another and we've been doing it for 7 years now.

I used to think that the problem with the supplements saga would be guilt, and that's certainly why we were dumb enough to sign up Hooker, Myers and Hurley in the way we did, but what appears to be more dangerous is that it becomes a cover for business as usual and that's where we are at.

 

[GUMBLETRON]

I don't understand this argument. There's a clear difference between picking teams with an eye to the future and actively trying to lose.

Whether guys like Myers, Green and Baguley contribute more today than the kids do is up for debate, but there's enough of a senior core that you needn't pick them if they aren't performing - and yet the past couple of years have seen exactly that. Maybe Laverde needs another spell in the VFL to get his confidence up but it's not like he's an isolated case.

 

[Maddogm]

It's clearly not what I am suggesting

Your shining example when you first brought it up was Carlton.

As a more intelligent poster than you would say: * Carlton.

So what you're saying is you've spent the rest of the discussion backpedalling and trying to pretend your original message was something different than it was.

 

[BrunoV]

Your shining example when you first brought it up was Carlton.

As a more intelligent poster than you would say: **** Carlton.

So what you're saying is you've spent the rest of the discussion backpedalling and trying to pretend your original message was something different than it was.

Go back and read everything. There is nothing that hasn't already been addressed.

 

[Doss]

This iteration of Carlton (as in since Ratten - not referring to the old Carltank stuff from 2006-07) should not be brought up as an example of playing the kids or list management in general being done properly. And I don't say that because '* Carlton', I say it because currently they have been bad for so long and are still so far off being competitive that we cannot possibly deduce their approach under even Bolton has actually borne fruit yet.

Maybe it will ultimately, but they could equally end up crashing and being at the foot of the table again in 2020-21 and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised.

Yes they do have some young guns who I'd love, but they've been so terrible for so long that I question whether that alone will be enough to lift them up.

 

[Bombermania]

I think the test of a player's importance to a side is if they are missed when they out of the side.

I like Myers and Green however its questionable as to if we have missed them in recent weeks.

When it comes to the kids, I think Woosha is trying to building them slowly, take Langford, he seems to have benefited from the go slow approach.

 

[BrunoV]

This iteration of Carlton (as in since Ratten - not referring to the old Carltank stuff from 2006-07) should not be brought up as an example of playing the kids or list management in general being done properly. And I don't say that because '**** Carlton', I say it because currently they have been bad for so long and are still so far off being competitive that we cannot possibly deduce their approach under even Bolton has actually borne fruit yet.

Maybe it will ultimately, but they could equally end up crashing and being at the foot of the table again in 2020-21 and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised.

Yes they do have some young guns who I'd love, but they've been so terrible for so long that I question whether that alone will be enough to lift them up.

The reason that I brought up Carlton is because it has been honest about it's position and what it is trying to do.

We, on the other hand, are trying to 'build a strong brand' and 'be all that we can be' at the same time that we are picking sides that make no sense based on the way is being played. It is plainly obvious that team selection is riddled with inconsistencies in terms of the standards that players are held to. Team selection is certainly not consistent with the football department having any self-awareness. And we know that the club, even if it wasn't driven by the football department, did everything it could to drive expectations for this season.

Carlton of 2005 to 2008 is not the same as Carlton now. I don't think that there is any evidence that Carlton is actively trying to lose games. I thought it was pretty clear that the discussion of the self-awareness Carlton now has was clearly in the context of the debacle that occurred following the sacking of Ratten and the appointment of Malthouse and the self-inflicted list destruction.

 

[VelvetSledge]

 

[Beerfish]

Aaaaand new avatar found.

 

[Doss]

wattahead

 

[Zach Package]

The nubrik jersey brings a tear to the eye

 

[VelvetSledge]

The nubrik jersey brings a tear to the eye

Still have my 93 Nubrik Guernsey with #5 on the back.

Which is special because I wasnt even three yet

 

[Lore]

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-06-11/chris-fagan-injured-during-big-freeze-4

video embedded ^

 

[JayJ20]

So what did North do last year? How did West Coast end up with Nic Nat? What was the precursor to Hawks dynasty? It's called list development.

The extreme irony for us is that it will almost certainly improve onfield results.

You watch what Hawthorn does the next time it sees that it's too far away.

So what happens if we tank and our picks are complete busts?

You are referring to Hawthorn (and by your logic, Collingwood as well) who both had priority picks in a 16 team competition without FA. North last year lost a ridiculous amount of close games. They weren't that bad. Finished top 8 only a year before that. LDU is not the reason why they're in the top 8.

West Coast probably have the strongest home ground advantage in the competition. The slightest improvement can see them be near unbeatable at home. They drop and go up the ladder very easily. It's been a trend since the 2000s.

If we deliberately lose, we'll look more like Carlton and Melbourne did than the "success stories". It'll exacerbate our losing culture.

 

[Mr Mojo Risin]

View attachment 510481

Looks a tiny bit like Robin Williams there.

 

[the PILL]

I think John Richard is hedging our bets with some of the older selections as we are not totally gone for finals at the moment with some of the selections he is choosing in a collaborative sense...

Making a final is valuable in a few self explanatory ways, especially for the young bloods that are being tested incrementally and performance management wise...

The Top 8 sides at the moment are not settled as in a clear domininat sense (although we are seeing a trend forming wIith Richmond, Collingwood, sorta Norf and a recently attitude adjustment of Melbourne) and we have shown that we are quite capable of beating a few...

If we limp to the finals being able to expose some of our future core to the intensity it becomes invaluable for our future...

You have to think broader...

As a positive oversite i honestly think Woosha since waking up from his slumber is concerntrating on depth...

 

[dougyboy]

View attachment 510481

Worsfolds coaching style has him on a slippery slope??

 

[JDavey]

So was the first half of the year Neal's fault? Were the players just out of touch? Interesting to hear opinions

 

[Shane Heard]

So was the first half of the year Neal's fault? Were the players just out of touch? Interesting to hear opinions

The captain leading the way with aggressive tackling and all round desperation in that Geelong game helped.

Something clicked that week and everyone just got back into that mindset of relentless pressure on the opposition ball carrier.

Something like that ...

 

[baz_machine]

The captain leading the way with aggressive tackling and all round desperation in that Geelong game helped.

Something clicked that week and everyone just got back into that mindset of relentless pressure on the opposition ball carrier.

Something like that ...

Longfark happened that week

I don't think a team had so obviously "switched on" since that game.

I think the penny just finally dropped for most of the senior core.

 

[Lore]

 

[CBombers17]

Obviously this is how he wants them to play and given the way they are responding the team have bought in.

Great results given we wouldn't have thought Smac and Brown would be part of such a funtional forward set up.

Credit needs to go to the coach here for this turn around. He asked them how they wanted to be seen and copped all sorts of s**t for it and yet the players clearly understood the question and are answering in kind.