Serious Question

[JeffDunne]

Before I start, if you're too precious to respond to the question because of the author, then don't proceed. Don't waste your time as I won't respond.

Now clearly there's a bit history with some on this board and I know some wonder why I take such an interest in Carlton. The latter is no great mystery really, I just happen to be close to a hell of a lot of Carlton people (personal and professional relationships).

Anyhow, yesterday I had a conversation with one of these Carlton people (best mate and close to some former Blues greats) about what is currently going on at Carlton. I guess you could say like the rest of you he has become incredibly frustrated (but he's been like that for a decade now). In fact, he is the very person that explained or theorised to me the characteristic that I use the word "lemming" to describe. The difference between his explanation and my use of the word is he sees it a consequence of success, I use it as an insult.

His theory on why Carlton ended up where they are today is ironically based around the events of the clubs greatest moment - the 1995 Grand Final. Now I know when you've won 16 it's hard to rate one win over another, but that victory is when Carlton unquestionably claimed the number one mantle in football. Not only did the club reach the magical 16 mark, but it did so in such dominating fashion that the team was being acclaimed the best ever. Such was the domination of this team that the only two losses for the season were attributed to the players funding their end of season trip. On every level, from the board to the players, the club was seen as a powerhouse that wasn't to be messed with.

Now being a St Kilda supporter I can only imagine what that sort of dominance does the psyche of a club, but I think most Carlton supporters would agree that it can create a sense of complacency within the club itself. I guess it's always a potential by product of such success but it's not like success was foreign to the club. In fact how clubs like Carlton and Essendon have handled success is what has separated them from the rest. It would be far too simplistic to suggest that a club could end up in it's present state simply because it couldn't handle success.

The theory is that the sense of invincibility that was created in 1995 went beyond what is normally associated with winning a flag. The problem was, this sense of invincibility was transferred to the membership base and in doing so, and there's no doubt that Elliott fostered this sort of thinking, the cost of membership wasn't seen as membership of a football club, it was seen as a small price to pay to become a member of the nations most respected club. It was like buying your way into a defacto Melbourne Club and once your a member of such an establishment, you do not dare question that establishment.

Now this is not to say that every Carlton member thinks this way, or even individually you aren't prepared to question the club, but more an observation on how the mood of the membership changed and created an environment for the club to fall as dramatically as it has. Ultimate success I guess creating the environment for ultimate failure.

So getting to point of all this, the question is . . . Are Carlton members the people ultimately responsible for the dramatic demise of the Carlton Football Club? And will it be those members, with what clearly now would be a changed attitude towards their club, that will ultimately have more influence than any coach, recruiter or early draft pick in the future success of the club?

 

[SA Blue]

The people most and ultimately responsible is John Elliott, and the recruitment team in the late 90's, early 00's.

Most supporters, knew by half way through 1996, that the dominance was gone. We ended being thrashed by the Bears in the finals and that era was over fo a lot of us. That is not to say people didn't believe we could just make it happen again, or that we were bullett proof. There is definitely an argument to be made that sustained success, meant we did not adjust quickly enough to the new era of salary caps, drafts and the the modern game and modern admin.

I just feel, by laying responsibility ultimately with the members, excuses the administration for our current predicament. The most important change in attitude that needs to take place at Carlton, is to take responsibility for our current position, and stop blaming others or the AFL (this still happens quite a bit), and form a stable progressive thinking board. Hopefully the events of the past few days, will provide this impetus. The equalisation of the AFL will mean, as a playing list will we rise again, to go all the way though, you need a stable admin.

Oh Yeah, Thomas is a hack, Saints are finished, and you are a troll!!!

 

[HBF]

Ultimately JD, I think what cost our great club was the fact that JE was still living in the '80's and simply thought he could just buy success. He never conformed to either the draft or the salary cap. The Salary Cap is obvious, we've been caught 3 times for cheating and who knows how many times we got away with it.

It has only been recently that the club has come out and said that we are rebuilding and the focus will be on youth - unconditional. I never once heard Jack say that we would rebuild, what he would do is sack the coach and bring in a new one.

I would also say alot of Carlton supporters fell into the trap of believing that Carlton had so much money, that they never really bothered to join up, and I was one of them. Having said that, I joined up in 1994 and have been a member ever since.

I really think that all Carlton supporters need to get behind the club right now. How many great memories have this great club given to you over your lifetime? It's time NOW to give back. I urge everyone who loves Carlton to sign up for 2007 and help get this club back on it's feet.

 

[AlecDuncan]

The truth is that both supporters and the previous administration have their share of blame.

We as supporters took our eye off the administration and just assumed that what the board did was OK by us. After all, it had been since the mid sixties.

The administration, in particular Elliott, was of the mind that bad news should be hidden from public view. Dirty laundry and all you know. Once you start hiding information, it's not too hard to hide some more even more damaging details.

The result was an apathetic supporter base being led by a nod-and-wink administration down a long slow slide. This is all quite separate to on-field performance which was still respectable at this stage.

Then the "perfect storm" of a wooden spoon and salary cap infringements finally shatter the illusion and the true situation is revealed to all.

We're still recovering, not from 2002, but really 1997. The first step back is transparency in the administration (of which I think we've had a little too much this week). Once supporters get over the anger of bad news they are at least equipped with the truth and can start proposing solutions - the first of which is to get on board and buy a membership.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Now this is not to say that every Carlton member thinks this way, or even individually you aren't prepared to question the club, but more an observation on how the mood of the membership changed and created an environment for the club to fall as dramatically as it has. Ultimate success I guess creating the environment for ultimate failure.

So getting to point of all this, the question is . . . Are Carlton members the people ultimately responsible for the dramatic demise of the Carlton Football Club? And will it be those members, with what clearly now would be a changed attitude towards their club, that will ultimately have more influence than any coach, recruiter or early draft pick in the future success of the club?

I don't believe the members need to take on a personal or even a collective responsibility for what has happened.

What is interesting is the perception (and I'm talking generally here not your perception) that members dare not question the powers that be, but there is another perception that we didn't tolerate failure and pushed our board to find ways to be successful, ultimately I guess ending in the board being creative in trying to retain players. Now those two perceptions do not marry up. Either we were placated members (either ignorant or deliberately blinkered) getting fat on the success of the club or we were success demanding members causing the board to feel pressured to keep the status quo. You can make a case for both these types of members to have inadvertently caused our problems but suddenly we are not talking about a supporter base, we are talking about two supporter factions.

The Carlton football club for a while now has seemed to be run like a political party with people from different sides lobbying to get one of their people on the board, rather than get the best people on to the board. Elliott stacked the board to ensure numbers. This is apparent more in the internet age but as a average supporter back then, I had no idea this was happening.

We can talk about being too scared to question, to rock the boat, to make the board accountable, but in my case and I suspect the majority of cases, there was nothing to question. From the outside looking in, it seemed professional, it seemed confident, it seemed to be evolving. Of course that is the perception the board wanted to give and seeing as though the board was stacked, the odd director quitting was hardly a cause for suspicion because the rest seemed solid.

The first two breaches barely caused a ripple, a fine here or there, probably an oversight, no harm done. The recruiting raised some eyebrows but then we resurrected in 99 and were red hot at times in 2000 and 2001. I think the real queries started around this time when we looked at the lack of players coming through and wondered how long Ratten, Bradley, Silvagni and McKay could keep going. As soon as those fears came to fruition through 2002, Elliott was gone IMO. Even without those cap breaches, I believe the turn had occurred mid 2002 when the expected comeback didn't eventuate.

To make a fair assessment of the supporters involvement in the downfall of the club, you have to look at the warning signs. Lay out each sign and then ask if in isolation or even collectively, had the board that had built up a lot of credit over time, done enough for the supporters to cause more than a ripple of discontent?

I have had opposition supporters tell me that Elliott belittled other clubs and embarrassed himself and the writing was on the wall then. In isolation is this enough to oust a board? I don't believe so although I thought he was a tosser for it. In fact I never liked him coming from a different side of politics to JE, but this was footy not politics (or so I thought).

I have had people tell us that the building of the grandstand was immediately stupid and that should have been enough for an uprising. But Carlton had always handled its home ground well, always kept the money coming in (seemingly) and seemed to be progressive in its thinking. On top of that we didn't know the club was in no position to take such an epic financial hit. We were told the AFL needed the ground before the AFL decided to go a different way. Who to believe?

Was told Elliott was costing us sponsorships such as the Quit campaign simply because he didn't want to not smoke in the grandstands. That one got up my goat, I would have been happy to have him gone then. Many other Blues supporters weren't concerned because the club came out and talked about other sponsorship deals that dwarfed the 250k Quit deal.

I would say that the members were NEVER given a truthful account of our position and due to the number of yes men on the board, we were never going to get one.

I think the 2002 wooden spoon was probably the best thing to happen to the club because the supporters were in no mood for proclamations of innocence over draft penalties and how JE would go to court and get us off. He would have driven us into a coffin right then and there IMO. JE tried a last ditch magic trick by knifing Brittain and plucking Pagan out of his hat. Most supporters said 'great ... thanks, we are crap and need a decent coach to get us out of this ... now **** off' These were no small issues that could be taken in isolation. We had ultimate proof we were being lied to ... JE stating he would sign a statutory declaration that we had not cheated, trying again to bluff us into unconditionally supporting the club. We wanted to believe but we couldn't. The rumours were too strong and unrelenting.

Anyway I digress, it's a bit of a mess trying to piece this sort of history and your feelings at the time together.

As for the future, our supporter base is badly fractured. Right now I look at all sides as being self serving ego driven pricks. Everyone has an opinion based on what their friends and their 'sources' tell them. The same people tried to tell the rest we would get off the charges in 2002. The fact is all sides have delivered furphys from their insider information and it is all playing out like a political showdown, something I have no time for.

Hands up who the unconditional supporters with interests of the club only are?

I'm in Brisbane so I don't have to be involved in whispers and cliques. I don't blame my fellow supporters for what has happened but I do believe some are blindly following what they are told (on both sides of the current drama) and as such muddying the waters for the rest of us who just want to do the right thing.

I say cut the crap, stop the agendas, stop the half baked theories based off as fact. If anybody has the real word and the real solutions out there, stand back and let them be heard. It's not about slapping each other on the back for being the first to post a rumour, it's about educating the majority to do the right thing. It's not about hating Pagan, hating Smorgon, wanting SOS, wanting Ratten or anything else. It's about having the correct information to take the right path as quickly and painlessly as possible.

JD you read the various Blues forums I am sure. A lot of good material would come from those forums. I am sure though that you can read that for every person toeing one line, there is another arguing the opposite. The supporters didn't cause this IMO but they sure as hell aren't helping to fix it now because they are not united and won't be for a long time.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

The truth is that both supporters and the previous administration have their share of blame.

We as supporters took our eye off the administration and just assumed that what the board did was OK by us. After all, it had been since the mid sixties.

The administration, in particular Elliott, was of the mind that bad news should be hidden from public view. Dirty laundry and all you know. Once you start hiding information, it's not too hard to hide some more even more damaging details.

The result was an apathetic supporter base being led by a nod-and-wink administration down a long slow slide. This is all quite separate to on-field performance which was still respectable at this stage.

Then the "perfect storm" of a wooden spoon and salary cap infringements finally shatter the illusion and the true situation is revealed to all.

We're still recovering, not from 2002, but really 1997. The first step back is transparency in the administration (of which I think we've had a little too much this week). Once supporters get over the anger of bad news they are at least equipped with the truth and can start proposing solutions - the first of which is to get on board and buy a membership.

Good post Alex. I like the analogy of the perfect storm, it was something that had to happen for us to start recovering. It was like the club had cancer for years before finally revealing it in 2002 or in this case, our doctor being the AFL, told the family. We then sit back and wonder how we didn't see the symptoms but then the patient was running around, acting cheerful and not letting us see what happened in those moments behind closed doors.

I won't blame the garden variety member for letting it happen though. There were probably some close to the club who had a few inklings and chose not to betray their allegiances to the board members. A few raised alarms back then might have made the rest of us smell the smoke and grab a bucket. 2002 in itself was proof that most had no idea, the level of disbelief told us that. The inability to put it behind us told us that. We were betrayed by our club, let there be no doubt about that and we are the ones still suffering for that betrayal. It's why I don't see anybody at the club as being trustworthy now.

 

[jj1978]

We can't deny the real problem was JE.

He thought he was above the law not only in terms of running an AFL team but in business (and we know what's happened to him now).

A lot of presidents of football clubs are astute business men and you'll find most of them that run a successful business seem to translate that success in their running of a successful football club. This is the reason why I feel that Smorgon was put in as our president.... he helps run a successful business, thus he must be able to translate that success to our club.

I know you need people with passion for the club to help run it. I feel that it's time for the CFC to wipe our board clean and start afresh.

JE has gotten what he deserved, he brought us down and everything else he was part off turned to crud.

Our members for years were so giddy in our success we looked at the world through JE eyes and didn't grasp the reality of what was potentially going on.