Shape up or ship out

[crowsarethebest]

We have too much patience on our players... we're scared those player might get picked up by another club and might turn into a gun. Yes you need patience but not that much.

 

[Crowked]

Your pretty much spot on, but I must say bock like mcphee, thats a bit rich even you would admit. I really dont want to offend anyone, but I think Bock is very very poor

The statement was in reference to his size not ability. He is roughly similar in size to McPhee. Anyway, McPhee was a dud at Freo, now hes good. Bock is a dud, but no worse than Mahoney. He just doesnt have a good team around him to disguise it.

 

[conVINCEd]

On Schuback, I think he is definitely in our first XXII.

He showed in the Hawthorn match how well he could play as a pacy, goal-kicking crumbing forward who can put pressure on the opposition defence.

Hopefully Neil remembers this and uses him in this role - we desperately lacked a crumber this year, and I think Schuie can move into the midfield from 2006 onwards.

Begley and Torney are in our First XVIII, IMHO.

Massie is still a decent player, just depends where he fits into our line-up. He is a solid back-up at worst, as others have said, and he is certainly more worthy of a list spot than Bock, Smith, Skipworth, Ladhams etc.

 

[Cap]

- we desperately lacked a crumber this year,
.

it was almost embarassing how many times the opposition get the ball crumbing our forward line this year (being 04 season)

hopefully neil teaches some of these guys how to do it properly then only time it was done well was when Roo or Mcleod went forward

 

[Fudd]

Your pretty much spot on, but I must say bock like mcphee, thats a bit rich even you would admit. I really dont want to offend anyone, but I think Bock is very very poor

Dont worry i dont think you are offending anyone, as far as i can tell im one of the few who doesnt want to see Bocks head on spike outside westlakes. Asfar as the Mchpee comment, i was only reffering to Bock playing a similar role as that tall halfback flanker. Not suggesting talent wise they are anywhere near each other, tho im willing to give him time.

 

[Fudd]

Begley - won't be delisted. In our best 22 in defence minding those quick little pesky forwards

Bode - would delisted. Trade if possible . How many chances/clubs needed.

Bock - not a KPP. Maybe a tall flanker either forward or back.Did some nice things in games towards season end, but also did some P...W... things as well - 2005 defining year.

Burton - perfect trade bate for a higher draft pick though apparently not in the Crows philosophy.

Doughty - depth player - system of turning over players (min 3) each season will catch-up with him.

Ladhams - Will be gone unless he does a U-turn in attitude and input.

Massie - a keeper. Good depth player at very worst.

Schuback - hasn't shown enough. 2005 defining year - last chance IMO

Skipworth - DELIST ! - AFL mediocrity

Shirley - DELIST ! - AFL mediocrity

Smith - soft bigmen in the Bock mould - huge doubt, but haven't seen him at AFL level so reserve judgement.

S. Stevens - Smart, slow footballer - needs to definately up a gear to stay.

Torney - in same bracket as Massie

Krueger - sounds great, great build, attack on the ball - when can we see him play

Most at risk: Skippy, Shirley, Doughty, Smith, Stevens.

I think the point with Matty Bode is that he HASNT been given the chances he deserves. Our midfield was that much better when he played IMO, and he can kick goals, which is obviously something our midfield has struggled with recently.

 

[Riddler]

- we desperately lacked a crumber this year,

This was the reason we recruited Ronnie Burns 2 years ago. Yet Ayers persistantly tried to play him on the ball, the wing or HFF. Trying to turn him into something he wasn't.

That's the thing that annoyed me about the Ronnie Burns experiment he wasn't given the oppurtunity to play in his best position. That of a Crumbing Forward Pocket.

 

[tribey]

Begley – A strange one. Injury-prone but blessed with talent (apparently) and was famously earmarked as a future captain by Blight during his ill-fated stint at St. Kilda. Needs to put down the armani and microphone and concentrate on his football. Shape up.

Bode - What's Matthew's problem? Can anyone hazard a guess? Has struggled with form and injury since his breakout 2002 season, and opinions of him here are rather divided as a result. My tolerance of players who won't or can't give 100% for the cause is severely limited - it's time for the club to adopt that mentality lest we end up with a list full of hacks... oh wait... Ship out.

Bock – Is best as a third-up spoiling defender, a la Bassett. Isn't physically capable nor talented enough to nail down a prime KPP role at either end. Ship out.

Burton – Is only truly useful to the cause as a leading leaping marking forward. If only he wasn't blessed with this mythical aerobic capacity which sees him running around like a blue-arsed fly across halfback and wing turning the ball to charcoal. Shape up.

Doughty – Three words that sum up Michael Doughty? Soft. Soft. Soft. Went from a promising youngish wingman to an established marshmellow of a halfback flanker. But who else is there? James Gallagher? Robert Shirley? Mmmm. Ship out.

Ladhams – Talented, but nowhere near as good as he thinks he is. If he had an ounce of humility or work ethic he'd be a permanent fixture in our starting 18. But as a wise old woman (Judge Judy) once said "you can't change character." Ship out.

Massie – I was sold on Kris after his tremendous back-end of 2003, but he's lost his way again. Plenty of desire and workrate, but is the overall talent really there? Shape up.

Schuback – He's quick. He's direct. He has good goalsense. So why can't he break into a team that has often struggled to score goals over the past few seasons? If we truly are to embark on a rebuilding phase, then Jacob has to be given a string of games in which to prove his worth. Shape up.

Skipworth – Too small and can't kick over a jam-tin. Would he be in any other side's 22? If you answered "maybe Hawthorn or Richmond" go to the head of the class. Ship out.

Shirley – With Stenglein out of the picture Shirley must stay on as a necessity, which is sad as it further highlights the paucity of quality on our list past the usual suspects. Shape up.

Smith – We promoted him off the rookie list because?... Ship out.

S Stevens – When Sydney offers you a KPP you really do have to wonder... Ship out.

Perrie - Can bust packs with the best of them but isn't the brightest of decision-makers and his kicking is ordinary. With Fergus still developing and Mark Stevens pleading for the course vet's shotgun, the opportunity is still there for him to be a valuable contributor. Shape up.

 

[Mad Dog]

On Schuback, I think he is definitely in our first XXII.

He showed in the Hawthorn match how well he could play as a pacy, goal-kicking crumbing forward who can put pressure on the opposition defence.

Hopefully Neil remembers this and uses him in this role - we desperately lacked a crumber this year, and I think Schuie can move into the midfield from 2006 onwards.

Begley and Torney are in our First XVIII, IMHO.

Massie is still a decent player, just depends where he fits into our line-up. He is a solid back-up at worst, as others have said, and he is certainly more worthy of a list spot than Bock, Smith, Skipworth, Ladhams etc.

This is my starting 18 for R1 2005
Bassett - Rutten - Hart
Edwards - McGregor - Begley
Reilly - Roo - Goody
Johncock - M Stevens - Hentschel
Burton - Welsh - Biglands
Clarke - Macca - Thommo

who would you see Shuey displacing ?
obviously injuries will make space - but I don't see Shuey in front of any of these small guys. I've got Skippy and Bode on the bench - I'd see him in the mix with these guys.
Torney is an interesting one - probably comes in on the bench
As for Massie - I like him also - but I think the squad is passing him by...he is a very good depth player - and will no doubt play a few games - but only a handfull

 

[Leigh Roy]

It was Watson who touted Begley as future captain, DT. Not Blight.

What's with everybody's disparaging remarks about Bock? It's like he and Hentschel started at opposite ends of this board's expectations and a season later are still at opposite ends.

Bock's gonna be a gun. Trent is a dud.

Tick tick tick......

Bock is chickenfeed. Trent's going to be our B&F in 2005.

 

[Crowked]

It was Watson who touted Begley as future captain, DT. Not Blight.

Thats it sack Begley.

Watson has a real keen eye for the talentless.

 

[Mad Dog]

Begley – A strange one. Injury-prone but blessed with talent (apparently) and was famously earmarked as a future captain by Blight during his ill-fated stint at St. Kilda. Needs to put down the armani and microphone and concentrate on his football. Shape up.

Bode - What's Matthew's problem? Can anyone hazard a guess? Has struggled with form and injury since his breakout 2002 season, and opinions of him here are rather divided as a result. My tolerance of players who won't or can't give 100% for the cause is severely limited - it's time for the club to adopt that mentality lest we end up with a list full of hacks... oh wait... Ship out.

Bock – Is best as a third-up spoiling defender, a la Bassett. Isn't physically capable nor talented enough to nail down a prime KPP role at either end. Ship out.

Burton – Is only truly useful to the cause as a leading leaping marking forward. If only he wasn't blessed with this mythical aerobic capacity which sees him running around like a blue-arsed fly across halfback and wing turning the ball to charcoal. Shape up.

Doughty – Three words that sum up Michael Doughty? Soft. Soft. Soft. Went from a promising youngish wingman to an established marshmellow of a halfback flanker. But who else is there? James Gallagher? Robert Shirley? Mmmm. Ship out.

Ladhams – Talented, but nowhere near as good as he thinks he is. If he had an ounce of humility or work ethic he'd be a permanent fixture in our starting 18. But as a wise old woman (Judge Judy) once said "you can't change character." Ship out.

Massie – I was sold on Kris after his tremendous back-end of 2003, but he's lost his way again. Plenty of desire and workrate, but is the overall talent really there? Shape up.

Schuback – He's quick. He's direct. He has good goalsense. So why can't he break into a team that has often struggled to score goals over the past few seasons? If we truly are to embark on a rebuilding phase, then Jacob has to be given a string of games in which to prove his worth. Shape up.

Skipworth – Too small and can't kick over a jam-tin. Would he be in any other side's 22? If you answered "maybe Hawthorn or Richmond" go to the head of the class. Ship out.

Shirley – With Stenglein out of the picture Shirley must stay on as a necessity, which is sad as it further highlights the paucity of quality on our list past the usual suspects. Shape up.

Smith – We promoted him off the rookie list because?... Ship out.

S Stevens – When Sydney offers you a KPP you really do have to wonder... Ship out.

Perrie - Can bust packs with the best of them but isn't the brightest of decision-makers and his kicking is ordinary. With Fergus still developing and Mark Stevens pleading for the course vet's shotgun, the opportunity is still there for him to be a valuable contributor. Shape up.

Excellent assessment DT...the second best yet.. ...agree with all your points - it's abount time we stop blowing sunshine up these guy's clackers...they are very serviceable players...in comparison to the rest of our list !!!!..........but when you stop and compare them to other lists...well...
As for Burton's mythical aerobic capacity.......legend has it that it was developed primarily by his ongoing need to sprint back down into defence to pick up his player once he has burnt the ball at half forward !!!...cluts

 

[Crowked]

As for Burton's mythical aerobic capacity.......legend has it that it was developed primarily by his ongoing need to sprint back down into defence to pick up his player once he has burnt the ball at half forward !!!...cluts

hehehehehehhehehehhehehehehehehhee

 

[Arsene Wenger]

Dont worry i dont think you are offending anyone, as far as i can tell im one of the few who doesnt want to see Bocks head on spike outside westlakes. Asfar as the Mchpee comment, i was only reffering to Bock playing a similar role as that tall halfback flanker. Not suggesting talent wise they are anywhere near each other, tho im willing to give him time.

No worries

He has a fantastic body for footy -- big tall and relatively strong. PLent of room for improvement in the lad

 

[Ozzie]

I think the point with Matty Bode is that he HASNT been given the chances he deserves. Our midfield was that much better when he played IMO, and he can kick goals, which is obviously something our midfield has struggled with recently.

Bode has had TOO MANY chances. Face it the bloke is a dud. Small, NOT quick, and shocking disposal. He is hard at it but gets caught way too often for my liking. Shaun Hart he ain't.

 

[Fudd]

Bode has had TOO MANY chances. Face it the bloke is a dud. Small, NOT quick, and shocking disposal. He is hard at it but gets caught way too often for my liking. Shaun Hart he ain't.

Well thats just your opinion. Many would agree with you and a whole lot would disagree. Personally i obviously think you are way off the mark. Yes he is small but i dont see it stopping him from laying tackles on the biggest guy on the park, id disagree about his pace, not in the league of say Mcleod, but definitely nippy around the packs, and asfar as his shocking disposal IMO its only when hes gone into a pack, got the ball himself and is trying to get the ball away by foot with the old no looker that he comes undone. In general field kicking he isnt that bad. He kicks goals, gets the ball, doesnt shirk a physical clash, all things we need more of. But as i say, thats just my opinion, and youll no doubt think im way off the mark. Funny how peoples opinions can vary.
By the way Shaun Hart is made to look way better than he is by the guys he plays with. And i wouldnt call him fast or a great user of the ball either. And if you remember back to the 2002 match against the Lions it was mathew Bode that won the game for us by pouncing on the loose ball that was about to be rushed up the ground by the lions, and held onto it long enough before dishing it out to a team mate in the dieing seconds. A dud hardly, if only for that moment.

 

[tribey]

It was Watson who touted Begley as future captain, DT. Not Blight.

Sorry quite right. Maybe Begs shared Watson's enthusiasm for jelly snakes?...

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Sorry quite right. Maybe Begs shared Watson's enthusiasm for jelly snakes?...

DT where do you stand at present on Wood V Monfries

And I know about the tap tap tap avatar thing

 

[tribey]

Either/or.

Both would be welcome additions, but I'd still rather have a tall.

 

[Mong]

Good assessment DT.

Begley – A strange one. Injury-prone but blessed with talent (apparently) and was famously earmarked as a future captain by Blight during his ill-fated stint at St. Kilda. Needs to put down the armani and microphone and concentrate on his football. Shape up.

Not sure about Begley. I don't see him as the hugley talented player that some claim he is. But a decent player nonetheless. He really found his niche on the full back line earlier this year and deserves more time.

Bode - What's Matthew's problem? Can anyone hazard a guess? Has struggled with form and injury since his breakout 2002 season, and opinions of him here are rather divided as a result. My tolerance of players who won't or can't give 100% for the cause is severely limited - it's time for the club to adopt that mentality lest we end up with a list full of hacks... oh wait... Ship out.

This is probably the one I disagree with DT most on. Bode has ability. I honestly can't remember him letting the team down too often when he gets significant game time. He struggles sometimes when he's on and off the bench. He has been in no mans land for a while now but I get the impression that Craig rates him and will be used more next year. Players of his age and position are rare at our club at the moment and this makes him a valuable component to our list over the next few years.

Bock – Is best as a third-up spoiling defender, a la Bassett. Isn't physically capable nor talented enough to nail down a prime KPP role at either end. Ship out.

I was a fan of Bock. Until he went to defence. His disposal was attrocious late in the season. I once had expectations. Now I have none. Deserves another year, but needs to do something in a hurry.

Burton – Is only truly useful to the cause as a leading leaping marking forward. If only he wasn't blessed with this mythical aerobic capacity which sees him running around like a blue-arsed fly across halfback and wing turning the ball to charcoal. Shape up.

Oft criticised but when playing well is one of our few genuine match winners.

Doughty – Three words that sum up Michael Doughty? Soft. Soft. Soft. Went from a promising youngish wingman to an established marshmellow of a halfback flanker. But who else is there? James Gallagher? Robert Shirley? Mmmm. Ship out.

Not a fan myself. Is a link man with good disposal but offers nothing else. Backup wingman at best.

Ladhams – Talented, but nowhere near as good as he thinks he is. If he had an ounce of humility or work ethic he'd be a permanent fixture in our starting 18. But as a wise old woman (Judge Judy) once said "you can't change character." Ship out.

In my opinion one of the most highly skilled players at the club. Out of favour with the selectors. Reports of bad attitude. Looking foward to see if anything changes under a new coach. As said above, he should be one of our best players and with our declining midfield what better time than now?

Massie – I was sold on Kris after his tremendous back-end of 2003, but he's lost his way again. Plenty of desire and workrate, but is the overall talent really there? Shape up.

Wasn't impressed at first. Then he got Chronic Fatigue and I thought he was done for. Absolutely surprised me with a fantastic 2003, in which there was much to admire about his effort and performances. And then went backwards again. I put him in the same mould as Torney. Can't fault their endeavor but I don't know if there is enough room for both in one team. They just lack the class or athleticism. I don't think we can afford to carry both for too much longer. One must go.

Schuback – He's quick. He's direct. He has good goalsense. So why can't he break into a team that has often struggled to score goals over the past few seasons? If we truly are to embark on a rebuilding phase, then Jacob has to be given a string of games in which to prove his worth. Shape up.

Has shown glimpses. I really like the way when he gets it he kicks long and direct. Definately worth keeping, but he needs to show something in 2005.

Skipworth – Too small and can't kick over a jam-tin. Would he be in any other side's 22? If you answered "maybe Hawthorn or Richmond" go to the head of the class. Ship out.

Just biding his time. Next year will probably be his last.

Shirley – With Stenglein out of the picture Shirley must stay on as a necessity, which is sad as it further highlights the paucity of quality on our list past the usual suspects. Shape up.

Limited shelf life. With Stinger gone will get his opportunities next year but beyond that I can't see him surviving long.

Smith – We promoted him off the rookie list because?... Ship out.

Needs to continue his improvement. With all the time we've invested in him the dividends need to start returning now.

S Stevens – When Sydney offers you a KPP you really do have to wonder... Ship out.

I did think he was unlucky at times to lose his spot earlier in the year when at times I thought he was one of our better forwards. But I can't see him getting much better so his future seems very limited.

Perrie - Can bust packs with the best of them but isn't the brightest of decision-makers and his kicking is ordinary. With Fergus still developing and Mark Stevens pleading for the course vet's shotgun, the opportunity is still there for him to be a valuable contributor. Shape up.

Like Scott Stevens I can't see Perrie getting much better. But he is valuable to us. Just when he looks finished he seems to get a lifeline and produces the goods. His experience and body type is valuable to us at this time with a few youngsters waiting in the wings. Will be important to us next year.


****

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

I think it is fair to say that with so many fringe players on our list who are in the shape up or ship out category, we won't have problems with the minimum delistings required at the end of 2005. Whilst a few will be given contract extensions, at least half are not likely to stay at AFC.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Good assessment DT.



Not sure about Begley. I don't see him as the hugley talented player that some claim he is. But a decent player nonetheless. He really found his niche on the full back line earlier this year and deserves more time.




This is probably the one I disagree with DT most on. Bode has ability. I honestly can't remember him letting the team down too often when he gets significant game time. He struggles sometimes when he's on and off the bench. He has been in no mans land for a while now but I get the impression that Craig rates him and will be used more next year. Players of his age and position are rare at our club at the moment and this makes him a valuable component to our list over the next few years.



I was a fan of Bock. Until he went to defence. His disposal was attrocious late in the season. I once had expectations. Now I have none. Deserves another year, but needs to do something in a hurry.



Oft criticised but when playing well is one of our few genuine match winners.



Not a fan myself. Is a link man with good disposal but offers nothing else. Backup wingman at best.



In my opinion one of the most highly skilled players at the club. Out of favour with the selectors. Reports of bad attitude. Looking foward to see if anything changes under a new coach. As said above, he should be one of our best players and with our declining midfield what better time than now?



Wasn't impressed at first. Then he got Chronic Fatigue and I thought he was done for. Absolutely surprised me with a fantastic 2003, in which there was much to admire about his effort and performances. And then went backwards again. I put him in the same mould as Torney. Can't fault their endeavor but I don't know if there is enough room for both in one team. They just lack the class or athleticism. I don't think we can afford to carry both for too much longer. One must go.



Has shown glimpses. I really like the way when he gets it he kicks long and direct. Definately worth keeping, but he needs to show something in 2005.



Just biding his time. Next year will probably be his last.



Limited shelf life. With Stinger gone will get his opportunities next year but beyond that I can't see him surviving long.



Needs to continue his improvement. With all the time we've invested in him the dividends need to start returning now.



I did think he was unlucky at times to lose his spot earlier in the year when at times I thought he was one of our better forwards. But I can't see him getting much better so his future seems very limited.



Like Scott Stevens I can't see Perrie getting much better. But he is valuable to us. Just when he looks finished he seems to get a lifeline and produces the goods. His experience and body type is valuable to us at this time with a few youngsters waiting in the wings. Will be important to us next year.


****

Fair and reasonable ****.
The player that polarises all is Bode.
I can see both sides, but the fact remains getting onto 26, can't cement a spot in the side (remember Craig was midfield coach) and we have youngsters and recruits we're going to want to play in the midfield as part of the redbuild - the future

 

[slappy]

jeez i reckon some are a bit harsh

for me perrie and bode seem to get way too much criticsm and i cant remember too many bad games from torney at all

and at 20/21 its too early to give up on schuback and skipworth

were not that bad ... yet

 

[WaynesWorld19]

I think it is fair to say that with so many fringe players on our list who are in the shape up or ship out category, we won't have problems with the minimum delistings required at the end of 2005. Whilst a few will be given contract extensions, at least half are not likely to stay at AFC.

The two year rule on draftees will see to that.
Lets say we recruit 5 players this year and 4 from last year - thats 9 players that can't be touched.
Add the best 22 and your havn't much left to delist to the minimum 3

 

[Damp Squarie]

Where do you start..there are so many fringe players.
I reckon Shirley Bode and Perrie are worth persisting with BUT they need explicit instructions on what it is they need to improve on.

Can any body tell me what these blokes have in common?