Shoenmakers

Remove this Banner Ad

blackhead&boil said:
yes, because he's the weakest link in the side by a mile.
Click to expand...


I would blame Tom Murphy for this loss.

And don't get me started on Luke McCabe and Mark Graham !


.
 
Brishawk said:
Did you watch the grand final? Hawkins mauled the pies defence. He mauled Freo's back line in round 1 too. And Cloke looked like tearing the GF apart until his supply was cut off. Now for reality . . . Reid, Taylor and Glass have all been AA in their career and both had bad games etc. when they get mauled. A couple of years ago Glass looked finished and Reid was struggling big time. Of course, if you can recruit any of them to Hawthorn, great. If not, shut up about them because we don't have them on our list. But of course Shoey conceding three goals to Hawkins probably caused you to make irrelevant and counter-factual points :rolleyes:

Re-watch the preliminary final last year and you will see Shoey did very well on Cloke. Yeah he made a couple of errors in the last quarter and one in the first but generally he was very good.
Click to expand...

Reid had one bad game when he was injured, big whoop. And please can you stop referencing goals as the be all and end all of a good game for a forward? Do you seriously rate Buddy's 2008 much higher than his 2011 because he kicked more goals?

Interesting that he apparently mauled Freo's defence. Comparing the Freo and Hawthorn games, we can see he had more than twice the possessions against us, twice the marks, and generally better across the board, only he kicked one less goal against us. To say he mauled Freo would infer that he let off a nuclear bomb in our defence. He was so much better against us it isn't funny.

Once again, goals is not the only story. Pods kicked 5 straight, but Hawkins was by far the better player against us. Hawkins had 8 marks inside fifty. You are looking at the wrong thing if that doesn't worry you. He had nearly half their marks inside fifty, half their contested marks. For the record, we had 7 contested marks, he had 5. We had 8 marks inside fifty, he had 8. With those 8 marks inside fifty, he could have potentially had 8 shots on goal, not to mention any shots not from marks, or kicks from outside fifty. If that isn't worrying for you, then there is no point having this argument, as we are seeing two completely different things.

I guess to you, Schoey had an absolute day out because his opponent 'only' kicked 3 goals on him. I guess to you, an honourable 2 point loss to Geelong is acceptable, and it doesn't matter if we don't win the flag, as long as we tried.
 
Prudster said:
Reid had one bad game when he was injured, big whoop. And please can you stop referencing goals as the be all and end all of a good game for a forward? Do you seriously rate Buddy's 2008 much higher than his 2011 because he kicked more goals?

Interesting that he apparently mauled Freo's defence. Comparing the Freo and Hawthorn games, we can see he had more than twice the possessions against us, twice the marks, and generally better across the board, only he kicked one less goal against us. To say he mauled Freo would infer that he let off a nuclear bomb in our defence. He was so much better against us it isn't funny.

Once again, goals is not the only story. Pods kicked 5 straight, but Hawkins was by far the better player against us. Hawkins had 8 marks inside fifty. You are looking at the wrong thing if that doesn't worry you. He had nearly half their marks inside fifty, half their contested marks. For the record, we had 7 contested marks, he had 5. We had 8 marks inside fifty, he had 8. With those 8 marks inside fifty, he could have potentially had 8 shots on goal, not to mention any shots not from marks, or kicks from outside fifty. If that isn't worrying for you, then there is no point having this argument, as we are seeing two completely different things.

I guess to you, Schoey had an absolute day out because his opponent 'only' kicked 3 goals on him. I guess to you, an honourable 2 point loss to Geelong is acceptable, and it doesn't matter if we don't win the flag, as long as we tried.
Click to expand...
Shoey plays on the best forward every week because he is our best KPD. Slag him all you want but he is the best we have. If you play on the best every week, you are going to have goals kicked on you and marks taken. Wishing we have someone else isn't going to change anything. Its an absolute disgrace the crap that is being stated about him. Gibbo and Stratton would have fared worse. Boumann likewise. Roughy did go back at times and did nothing. Maybe he can do better in future but on Monday when it counted he was ineffective in the backline. Fact is, we kicked 0-5 and and were 0-5 in centre clearances in the last. Shoey can't influence any of that yet he is to blame for our loss? To 3/4 were were a 3 goal better side and it was the mids and forwards who let us down not a 21 year old KPD playing on the oppositions best forward.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Prudster said:
Once again, goals is not the only story. Pods kicked 5 straight, but Hawkins was by far the better player against us. Hawkins had 8 marks inside fifty. You are looking at the wrong thing if that doesn't worry you. He had nearly half their marks inside fifty, half their contested marks. For the record, we had 7 contested marks, he had 5. We had 8 marks inside fifty, he had 8. With those 8 marks inside fifty, he could have potentially had 8 shots on goal, not to mention any shots not from marks, or kicks from outside fifty. If that isn't worrying for you, then there is no point having this argument, as we are seeing two completely different things.
Click to expand...

I suppose what needs to be done here is a wait and see approach when we start talking about how good other defenders are in comparison to Shoe. It appears Hawkins is finally coming of age (I expect him to be the best forward in the comp come years end) and is reaching the heights that were expected of him a couple of years ago and it will be interesting to see how other defenders go against him - especially teams in the top 4 because tbh I can't see anyone from Collingwood, Carlton or the eagles for that matter getting close to having a defender who can take him on.

There is no doubt there is a problem with Shoey atm as he embarks on the learning curve of turning being a forward into a defender, but who would you suggest (apart from Ruff because that is a wasted forward when our forward line is not even functioning well at the moment) to take on the role that Shoey is playing. Before Gilham got injured I forget the number of threads that were quite critical of him not being up to standard as a defender and that's before he did his knee and we certainly can't rely on Stratts or Gibbo to do the job.

There would be very, very few defenders who will get near pods, hawkins or cloke and imo the backline needs to become more cohesive and supportive of one and other and just like with our forward line mix it up a bit more so the opposition are unsure and make sure that he can't be dragged back to the line in a one on situation until he has a bit more confidence, weight and experience.
 
Brishawk said:
Shoey plays on the best forward every week because he is our best KPD. Slag him all you want but he is the best we have. If you play on the best every week, you are going to have goals kicked on you and marks taken. Wishing we have someone else isn't going to change anything. Its an absolute disgrace the crap that is being stated about him. Gibbo and Stratton would have fared worse. Boumann likewise. Roughy did go back at times and did nothing. Maybe he can do better in future but on Monday when it counted he was ineffective in the backline. Fact is, we kicked 0-5 and and were 0-5 in centre clearances in the last. Shoey can't influence any of that yet he is to blame for our loss? To 3/4 were were a 3 goal better side and it was the mids and forwards who let us down not a 21 year old KPD playing on the oppositions best forward.
Click to expand...

We have had 4 years to come up with something, and Schoey is the best we have. Hell, we should have had a succession plan before 2008, before we knew Croad was done.

Also, i don't see many people blaming Schoey solely for the loss. He was poor, as he was against Geelong and Collingwood all of last year. If we don't work something out for finals, we probably won't win the premiership. That's the reality of it.

The 2006 draft will cost us a premiership. We screwed up every pick, except Kennedy, who we don't have anymore anyway. For the record, some of the tall defenders we missed included: Reid, Brown, Frawley, MacKenzie, Schofield, Jamison and Lonergan. Notice a trend with these players? Apart from Frawley, they all belong to top 5 teams. Now i understand that hindsight is a great asset, but half of these guys we skipped over multiple times for guys like Thurgood, Morton, Moss, Brett Collins (who the hell is that?)

We seemingly didn't even try to draft any tall defenders.
 
Brishawk said:
Did you watch the grand final? Hawkins mauled the pies defence. He mauled Freo's back line in round 1 too. And Cloke looked like tearing the GF apart until his supply was cut off. Now for reality . . . Reid, Taylor and Glass have all been AA in their career and both had bad games etc. when they get mauled. A couple of years ago Glass looked finished and Reid was struggling big time. Of course, if you can recruit any of them to Hawthorn, great. If not, shut up about them because we don't have them on our list. But of course Shoey conceding three goals to Hawkins probably caused you to make irrelevant and counter-factual points :rolleyes:

Re-watch the preliminary final last year and you will see Shoey did very well on Cloke. Yeah he made a couple of errors in the last quarter and one in the first but generally he was very good.
Click to expand...

Agreed. When Franko put us in the lead with 3mins to go - who kicked the ball to him from HB ?

Shoe.

He dropped a mark, which caused a contest. Is it his fault we were scored against frm that contest ?

Only Partly
 
Kapil Hawk said:
Look I know I'll be lambasted for this but Ryan Shoenmakers is

NOT UP TO IT

He has now cost us in both games against Geelong; Round 2 with his inept kicking across goal and today with both his decision making and poor disposal.
Click to expand...

he has not the TEAM HAS i am getting real peed off at people putting the blame on him !

cats game i saw him win the ball away from the opposition a couple of times at least one of those times it was a team mate that stuffed it up ! NOT SHOE !

deal with it he is in the team you are not the coach and he did not lose us the games FULL STOP !
 
Pessimistic said:
Agreed. When Franko put us in the lead with 3mins to go - who kicked the ball to him from HB ?

Shoe.

He dropped a mark, which caused a contest. Is it his fault we were scored against frm that contest ?

Only Partly
Click to expand...

People forget Shoe kicked the ball to Bud sadly Pessimistic !

they also seem to forget that cloke missed goals while Shoe was on him in the pies game rd 1 , he is improving and the only way he is improving is cause he is getting the experience he needs too to learn the trade to be a great backman !

cats game pods and hawks would have kicked those goals no matter who was on them yet oh it is a 20 something yr old kids fault even though we had forwards miss goals etc etc
 
BuddyHawkers said:
more news on Shoenmakers not good for the kid

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-strife-of-ryan-20120410-1wn9h.html
Click to expand...

Ugly, UGLY journalism; citing Big Footy to construct a pose on Shoenmakers' ability.

Writing about form is one thing - at least it highlights potential and/or status, but quoting posters to support the current facts Ryan is in "strife" is simply bad writing or a bad decision by the editor. It's hollow and potentially further crippling as a result!! :mad:
 
At least it didn't quote Bay 13.

I want to see Roughead on Tippett , and Schoenmakers on Walker, or playing CHF/hf this weekend.

I think it's third tall or up forward for the Schoen. At least until he starts approaching 100kg.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Brishawk said:
Shoey plays on the best forward every week because he is our best KPD. Slag him all you want but he is the best we have. If you play on the best every week, you are going to have goals kicked on you and marks taken. Wishing we have someone else isn't going to change anything. Its an absolute disgrace the crap that is being stated about him. Gibbo and Stratton would have fared worse. Boumann likewise. Roughy did go back at times and did nothing. Maybe he can do better in future but on Monday when it counted he was ineffective in the backline. Fact is, we kicked 0-5 and and were 0-5 in centre clearances in the last. Shoey can't influence any of that yet he is to blame for our loss? To 3/4 were were a 3 goal better side and it was the mids and forwards who let us down not a 21 year old KPD playing on the oppositions best forward.
Click to expand...

That's your opinion. But several people think, like I, who watched every single AFL game each year, that we have better options that Schoey. I think we have several for starters.

I find that your argument against people blaming the loss is disingenuous. If we had of kicked an additional goal in the last quarter and won the game would Schoey performance be magically better? Not one difference at all.

Most astute observers are looking at the player in isolation. In isolation Schoey, lacks leadership, defensive nous, grunt, defensive bodywork, timing and composure. It seems we are asking too much of him.

I wish some of you came to the VFL (I know some of you do) and you could see what a different player Schoey is up forward. I'm not been ridiculous when I say that Schoey up forward looks like Cloke.

Leads well, times it well, kicks from outside 50 (even from the boundary), appears calm, takes contested marks, work his opponent over. So the complete opposite of him in defence.

Really is a no-brainer.
 
I think we hawk fans are being a bit precious about a fairly standard piece of journalism.
There is no bias in the piece for starters.
Hawkins took 12 marks, Pods kicked 5 goals and we lost by 2 points.

Pretty obvious there is a story in there somewhere.

Sadly Ryan is already a whipping boy, and it is this here internet forum that is largely to blame for that. Sit in the stands and the whipping boy status is quickly confirmed in a far more ugly manner than the piece of journalism in question.

The journalist in question has done little more than visit BF to confirm common thoughts among hawk fans to highlight the topic in question.

:confused::confused:
 
Roby said:
That's your opinion. But several people think, like I, who watched every single AFL game each year, that we have better options that Schoey. I think we have several for starters.

I find that your argument against people blaming the loss is disingenuous. If we had of kicked an additional goal in the last quarter and won the game would Schoey performance be magically better? Not one difference at all.

Most astute observers are looking at the player in isolation. In isolation Schoey, lacks leadership, defensive nous, grunt, defensive bodywork, timing and composure. It seems we are asking too much of him.

I wish some of you came to the VFL (I know some of you do) and you could see what a different player Schoey is up forward. I'm not been ridiculous when I say that Schoey up forward looks like Cloke.

Leads well, times it well, kicks from outside 50 (even from the boundary), appears calm, takes contested marks, work his opponent over. So the complete opposite of him in defence.

Really is a no-brainer.
Click to expand...

I concur....well said :thumbsu:
 
Roby said:
That's your opinion. But several people think, like I, who watched every single AFL game each year, that we have better options that Schoey. I think we have several for starters.

I find that your argument against people blaming the loss is disingenuous. If we had of kicked an additional goal in the last quarter and won the game would Schoey performance be magically better? Not one difference at all.

Most astute observers are looking at the player in isolation. In isolation Schoey, lacks leadership, defensive nous, grunt, defensive bodywork, timing and composure. It seems we are asking too much of him.

I wish some of you came to the VFL (I know some of you do) and you could see what a different player Schoey is up forward. I'm not been ridiculous when I say that Schoey up forward looks like Cloke.

Leads well, times it well, kicks from outside 50 (even from the boundary), appears calm, takes contested marks, work his opponent over. So the complete opposite of him in defence.

Really is a no-brainer.
Click to expand...

Interesting Roby.

I've obviously not seen him at VFL level, but haven't heard him described like Cloke before & haven't heard his attacking play effectively described as dominant before either. I've only seen him play forward in the NAB games & I liked what I saw.

I also think he would play well as a forward & would likely finish games out strongly due to his fitness. In the scramble that is NAB footy I don't think we saw Schoey settle up front & I think he would be good there.
 
Roby said:
That's your opinion. But several people think, like I, who watched every single AFL game each year, that we have better options that Schoey. I think we have several for starters.

I find that your argument against people blaming the loss is disingenuous. If we had of kicked an additional goal in the last quarter and won the game would Schoey performance be magically better? Not one difference at all.

Most astute observers are looking at the player in isolation. In isolation Schoey, lacks leadership, defensive nous, grunt, defensive bodywork, timing and composure. It seems we are asking too much of him.

I wish some of you came to the VFL (I know some of you do) and you could see what a different player Schoey is up forward. I'm not been ridiculous when I say that Schoey up forward looks like Cloke.

Leads well, times it well, kicks from outside 50 (even from the boundary), appears calm, takes contested marks, work his opponent over. So the complete opposite of him in defence.

Really is a no-brainer.
Click to expand...


Disagree with what is in bold. He is 21 FFS.

I go to the VFL, when was the last time Shoey played forward?
 
Brant said:
Interesting Roby.

I've obviously not seen him at VFL level, but haven't heard him described like Cloke before & haven't heard his attacking play effectively described as dominant before either. I've only seen him play forward in the NAB games & I liked what I saw.

I also think he would play well as a forward & would likely finish games out strongly due to his fitness. In the scramble that is NAB footy I don't think we saw Schoey settle up front & I think he would be good there.
Click to expand...

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I think Schoey would team up well with Gunston on the forward line. They'd have a field day if they could kick accurately, with the opposition being Buddy conscious and all.
 
dipper86 said:
I concur....well said :thumbsu:
Click to expand...

What? You never agree with me. I don't know if you are being sarcastic. :D

go hawks!!! said:
Disagree with what is in bold. He is 21 FFS.

I go to the VFL, when was the last time Shoey played forward?
Click to expand...

From memory he played at at least 2 games up forward (which I saw myself) in he VFL last year. His first game back when he came back from his injury, he played one half up forward. You'd have to go check the Box Hill match reports to be exact.
 
Roby said:
That's your opinion. But several people think, like I, who watched every single AFL game each year, that we have better options that Schoey. I think we have several for starters.

I find that your argument against people blaming the loss is disingenuous. If we had of kicked an additional goal in the last quarter and won the game would Schoey performance be magically better? Not one difference at all.

Most astute observers are looking at the player in isolation. In isolation Schoey, lacks leadership, defensive nous, grunt, defensive bodywork, timing and composure. It seems we are asking too much of him.

I wish some of you came to the VFL (I know some of you do) and you could see what a different player Schoey is up forward. I'm not been ridiculous when I say that Schoey up forward looks like Cloke.

Leads well, times it well, kicks from outside 50 (even from the boundary), appears calm, takes contested marks, work his opponent over. So the complete opposite of him in defence.

Really is a no-brainer.
Click to expand...


so why not make a straight swap with roughead? didn't he have a crisis of form with kicking yips over the last couple of seasons? chuck him down back and let him work his magic. throw shoemaker forward and let him strut his stuff where he's comfortable.

the situation kind of reminds me of cox from back in the early 2000's. clearly a natural attacking forward but schwa seemed hell bent on turning him into a defender.



also, to the previous respondent, who cares how old he is? you don't get bonus points for being young!! :mad:
 
"It's no easy task, as the hat-trick of marginal free kicks paid to Lance Franklin against Tom Lonergan on Monday illustrated."


:rolleyes:


you've got to be kidding me! where is the forehead slapping emo when you need it??
 
dipper86 said:
Well actually I don't agree with you entirely, the Travis Cloke comparison was a fair stretch. :D :thumbsu:
Click to expand...

I never said he was as good as Cloke, I just said he was like. Yes, that would be a fair stretch. But their are similarities.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Remove this Banner Ad

Back
Top