Should We Keep JON

[deliberate!!]

Same people who said get rid of Moore

One thing I will do Tetley, is admit to getting Moore wrong.
I didn't see a lot of him and when I did, I wondered about him.
Moore's progression came from the clouds.
But Thursty & McGuane have made Moore's transition easier than him starting as the the lone figure-head backman. (as Thursty was)
Moore's body and willingness to use it as a weapon makes him completely different to JON. JON always looks like he's trying too hard to play elegant football.
He's not made for the pace of Senior football in the way he moves and telegraphs it. He radiates fear and uncertainty.....always.

 

[beaver fever]

A question for all the people that think we should give JON more time. Do you think Casserly should be delisted?

 

[TimeFor11]

A question for all the people that think we should give JON more time. Do you think Casserly should be delisted?

I see where you are coming from. Casserly however has completely ****ed hammys it seems whilst JON is atleast getting on the park.

I think if it comes down to the 2 then it is Casserly that goes and maybe put him on the rookie list.

 

[Mario Speedwagon]

He radiates fear and uncertainty.....always.

Really? Because he didn't look like he was when Port were storming home in that last quarter..in fact he was one of the few in our side that didn't....didn't look like it in the last against Melbourne either....funny how this apparent "liablity's", two matches were wins for us , considering his very presence on our list undermines the whole club according to some...still think he might come good..won't be a gun..might well never be anything but a dud, who only shows the rarest of glimpses...but giving a player until 21-22 is fair enough and hardly "generous"..."generous" is Kane Johnson & Joel Bowden's endless testimonials ,Tivendale & Hyde ,King getting another two years if it's true..."generous" is 300k for a proven 8 season hack in McMahon...and while I'm at it...Krak was never a dud either..to say he had no talent is absurd...just lazy and totally under achieved and too much off -field baggage....Port proved Rodan could actually play....which brings me to my main point...the main issue with this club is our innate inability to get the very best out of our players..until we address that, there will be plenty more JON's ,Tambling's (in your opinion) ...christ...try and tell me even Deledio isn't still at least year behind were he should be ...club B& F, best year ever sure...but he ain't being mentioned in the same breath as Buddy , Junior or Hodge..and that's were he should be by now...make no mistake...Richmonditis is very real and still around...only a few rise above it...just hope we eradicate it before Cotchin & Rance get it...now, have at me...

 

[deliberate!!]

Really? Because he didn't look like he was when Port were storming home in that last quarter..in fact he was one of the few in our side that didn't....didn't look like it in the last against Melbourne either....funny how this apparent "liablity's", two matches were wins for us , considering his very presence on our list undermines the whole club according to some...still think he might come good..won't be a gun..might well never be anything but a dud, who only shows the rarest of glimpses...but giving a player until 21-22 is fair enough and hardly "generous"..."generous" is Kane Johnson & Joel Bowden's endless testimonials ,Tivendale & Hyde ,King getting another two years if it's true..."generous" is 300k for a proven 8 season hack in McMahon...and while I'm at it...Krak was never a dud either..to say he had no talent is absurd...just lazy and totally under achieved and too much off -field baggage....Port proved Rodan could actually play....which brings me to my main point...the main issue with this club is our innate inability to get the very best out of our players..until we address that, there will be plenty more JON's ,Tambling's (in your opinion) ...christ...try and tell me even Deledio isn't still at least year behind were he should be ...club B& F, best year ever sure...but he ain't being mentioned in the same breath as Buddy , Junior or Hodge..and that's were he should be by now...make no mistake...Richmonditis is very real and still around...only a few rise above it...just hope we eradicate it before Cotchin & Rance get it...now, have at me...

If McMahon is a hack as you call him, how does he finish 8th in the B&F?
Says more about our current list, than McMahon. Hmmm?

Hey FlagonWagon, JON got a kick against Port cause everything went his way.
Just another one of those players who never beats an opponent of equal skill or better, but gets a kick when he's allowed to. Don't pump JON up too much. My Grandmother would eventually get a kick in the AFL if she was allowed to have a crack at the Seniors and Burgers OVER & OVER AGAIN.

Same with Schulz and Hughes and Pettifer......kick-getters when everything suits them. While other players get a kick when the have to actually beat an opponent of equal ability and strive just to get a kick.

Port and Melbourne.....haha......FFS!

 

[Mario Speedwagon]

If McMahon is a hack as you call him, how does he finish 8th in the B&F?
Says more about our current list, than McMahon. Hmmm?

Hey FlagonWagon, JON got a kick against Port cause everything went his way.
Just another one of those players who never beats an opponent of equal skill or better, but gets a kick when he's allowed to. Don't pump JON up too much. My Grandmother would eventually get a kick in the AFL if she was allowed to have a crack at the Seniors and Burgers OVER & OVER AGAIN.

Same with Schulz and Hughes and Pettifer......kick-getters when everything suits them. While other players get a kick when the have to actually beat an opponent of equal ability and strive just to get a kick.

Port and Melbourne.....haha......FFS!

Good to see your usual well thought out and insightful, non-glib reply. Yep McMahon came 8th in our B&F...wow did he?? 8th you say? He must be totally awesome then....and even your Grandma could play for Coburg..zing! ouch! good point ...oh and only Port -at AAMI- & Melbourne.. pfft... about as hard as an U12's carnival those games.....well gee ya got me again...and sorry for "pumping JON up too much" by saying we should give him maybe 1 or 2 more years - and that he though will never be a gun he might come good...you're right, I shouldn't go overboard like that...

Just like Bowie in the 70's..you want to have it both ways...blame Wallace , blame the leadership group ..but also blame the kids for not showing enough under said coach and senior players who are useless ...oh but wait a skinny outside flanker who couldn't get a game in a side that was crap last year and has shown nothing for 8 seasons will save us...after all gee wiz he got the 8th most votes in the end of year everyone gets a trophy day, and at only 300k...a bargain too!!! You are, quite simply, a prize bell end....

 

[deliberate!!]

Good to see your usual well thought out and insightful, non-glib reply. Yep McMahon came 8th in our B&F...wow did he?? 8th you say? He must be totally awesome then....and even your Grandma could play for Coburg..zing! ouch! good point ...oh and only Port -at AAMI- & Melbourne.. pfft... about as hard as an U12's carnival those games.....well gee ya got me again...and sorry for "pumping JON up too much" by saying we should give him maybe 1 or 2 more years - and that he though will never be a gun he might come good...you're right, I shouldn't go overboard like that...

Just like Bowie in the 70's..you want to have it both ways...blame Wallace , blame the leadership group ..but also blame the kids for not showing enough under said coach and senior players who are useless ...oh but wait a skinny outside flanker who couldn't get a game in a side that was crap last year and has shown nothing for 8 seasons will save us...after all gee wiz he got the 8th most votes in the end of year everyone gets a trophy day....you are, quite simply, a prize bell end....

And just like Freddie Mercury in the 80's Flaggywaggy, you take it only one way and that stops you from thinking clearly!

Break it down into it's simplest form Wagon... (and we'd hate to make it clear and concise, wouldn't we. )
JON should be playing in the Senior side regularly by now.
Why not? I don't ****ing know! Maybe, just maybe, he's not up to it unlike a stack of guys, his age, ALREADY playing regular SENIOR footy. But I'll let you develop some BS excuse, as usual, why the 'player of your choice' can't consistently make the grade.
Blame Wallace....Yep. Blame JON...Yep.
I've seen enough of JON play already, unlike yourself I don't need to give a player 10 years of chances to make a call on him.
Go on guru SPEEDWAGON, tell me what other team JON would be playing for if we didn't have him 'slow-burning' in the Burgers? NONE.

I know you hate facts Wagon, but the 8th most valuable player at the club this year was McMahon.
(Go on, deny that with your whining).
B&F voting numbers exist mate. Your 'pie-in-the-sky' theories don't.
You probably believe finishing 9th on the ladder is more than 5/10 as well.

And Wagon, when you can show me JON getting even close to 8th in the B&F, I'll believe the crap you go on with.
Then I'll also believe McMahon is a hack and JON isn't. ZZZZzzzzzzzz

Cheers

 

[Mario Speedwagon]

VOTES:
Give Him One More Year To Prove Himself

acr2751, adamania11, AlexRance, Benchwarmer77, Captain_Brown_7, Cleishy, cormick, CrashComic, Danog, deliberate!!, domaldhino, Equus, eyeofthetiger, getthefooty, gregzy, HBK619, HobarTiger, Ize Of The World, Jisha, JSFish, Junior24, Kangas_Div, Kyusss, lidscogscotch, LikeaTiger, MattyO1981, newone, nut, one eyedtiger, phoenix_rise_, Punt Road Feral, Regular Gonzales, Richm0ndrule, Richmond FC, Richo for PM, richoatthedisco, sante, serpico66, shankd it, Suds_Mcduff, Tetley Tigers, The Coast, The Cotch, Tiger67, tigerboyz, tigerdan, Tigerman_12, Tigertom, TravelingTiger, True Thylacine, yandb, zuddz

 

[Tigertom]

deliberate!! - just for calrrification do you want JON to stay or go?

Some of your posts contradict each other.

 

[RockyBalboa]

VOTES:
Give Him One More Year To Prove Himself

acr2751, adamania11, AlexRance, Benchwarmer77, Captain_Brown_7, Cleishy, cormick, CrashComic, Danog, deliberate!!, domaldhino, Equus, eyeofthetiger, getthefooty, gregzy, HBK619, HobarTiger, Ize Of The World, Jisha, JSFish, Junior24, Kangas_Div, Kyusss, lidscogscotch, LikeaTiger, MattyO1981, newone, nut, one eyedtiger, phoenix_rise_, Punt Road Feral, Regular Gonzales, Richm0ndrule, Richmond FC, Richo for PM, richoatthedisco, sante, serpico66, shankd it, Suds_Mcduff, Tetley Tigers, The Coast, The Cotch, Tiger67, tigerboyz, tigerdan, Tigerman_12, Tigertom, TravelingTiger, True Thylacine, yandb, zuddz

I notice the old favourite sausage roll isn't on that list!!

 

[Top_4_Tiger]

One thing I will do Tetley, is admit to getting Moore wrong.
I didn't see a lot of him

If the same applies to JON then tone back the debate!

You have said a couple of things about him that are not entirely accurate, such as:

Moore's body and willingness to use it as a weapon makes him completely different to JON. JON always looks like he's trying too hard to play elegant football.

I understand why you would think that.

But in all honesty, JON is a very aggressive player and even as a tall, skinny, aboriginal teenager he still throws his body in and gets into brawls nearly every week.

JON gets into a brawl at Coburg more than any other player - you may not see it happen, but it does.

In fact, JON is very similar to Moore. Both had fantastic athletisism and pace with knocks on their football ability. Both had a great attitude at training and JON is undoubtably much harder at the ball (but a slower decision maker at this point in time).

While JON may only get 1 more year, the reasons you gave for him not staying around are not entirely accurate.

 

[emperor]

Wouldn't mind him having another year. He did show something in the few senior games he got this year. I think we can find room for him.

As long as Meyer stays too

 

[RockyBalboa]

Wouldn't mind him having another year. He did show something in the few senior games he got this year. I think we can find room for him.

As long as Meyer stays too

the guy is a total dud...get rid of him for your clubs sake!!

 

[cormick]

the guy is a total dud...get rid of him for your clubs sake!!

We could say the same about Minson at your mob...I bet you'd take me to task.
**** off

 

[THE_GUN]

2008 players that should be delisted / traded /retired
1, tivendal..........gone
2. hyde..............gone
3. pettifer.........hopefully going
4. casserly..........delisted / rookie listed if nothing better available
5. polak..............rookie list as per rama rule

4 n/draft picks + 1 psd pick (cousins i hope )

 

[Mario Speedwagon]

(cousins i hope )

Me too...but it looks like he's talking to The Filth again...

 

[tigerdan]

Not that I am particularly keen on Cousins, but he has to come back via the PSD. That means we can pick him ahead of Collingwood and there's nothing he can do about it, save sitting out of the game for a year.

 

[King_Mallee]

If the same applies to JON then tone back the debate!

You have said a couple of things about him that are not entirely accurate, such as:



I understand why you would think that.

But in all honesty, JON is a very aggressive player and even as a tall, skinny, aboriginal teenager he still throws his body in and gets into brawls nearly every week.

JON gets into a brawl at Coburg more than any other player - you may not see it happen, but it does.

In fact, JON is very similar to Moore. Both had fantastic athletisism and pace with knocks on their football ability. Both had a great attitude at training and JON is undoubtably much harder at the ball (but a slower decision maker at this point in time).

While JON may only get 1 more year, the reasons you gave for him not staying around are not entirely accurate.

top post as it mirrors my thoughts exactly. There is no knock on his attitude or hardness as with Meyer and Petiffer it is simply he has a huge fault in his game. This can be rectified given some expeience and confident

 

[beaver fever]

There is no knock on his attitude or hardness...it is simply he has a huge fault in his game. This can be rectified given some expeience and confident

eh, wouldn't that normally work the other way around?

Not performing because of deficiencies in your gameplay surely is a lot harder to rectify (if at all possible) than not performing because of a poor attitude.

JON has far too many weaknesses in my opinion and will be given the mandatory 4 years for a small, but I don't see how he will get over his poor disposal and poor awareness problems. His athleticism is just not compensating for his lack of a footy brain. If someone was prepared to trade him for a 5th round to 4th round upgrade I would do it.

 

[Tigertom]

If someone was prepared to trade him for a 5th round to 4th round upgrade I would do it.

JON is only 20 years old has had three years in the system, just starting to get some build to his slight frame and you want to trade him for a 4th round pick? WTF Some other club will get a good young player and you will bitch and moan about it.

If he gets to play the first eight to ten games this year in the ones, gains some confidence then we can all rate him.

We can't keep offloading our early picks without giving them the opportunity.

 

[beaver fever]

JON is only 20 years old has had three years in the system, just starting to get some build to his slight frame and you want to trade him for a 4th round pick? WTF Some other club will get a good young player and you will bitch and moan about it.

Or more realistically they will get a development player that will more than likely turn out to be a dud.

If he gets to play the first eight to ten games this year in the ones, gains some confidence then we can all rate him.

What if he doesn't play in the ones which is far more likely? Which player comes out of the side for JON?

We can't keep offloading our early picks without giving them the opportunity.

Keep offloading our early picks? What precedent do you speak of? Only Ottens and Fiora in recent times. Fiora is similar to JON except he was actually getting games. Should we have persisted with him?

Draft position shouldn't stop a club from delisting players. JON has shown absolutely nothing in 3 years, and is lucky not to be playing coburg seconds. Sometimes you just have to admit you got the pick wrong and move on.

 

[chrisjie]

I don't care if he starts playing better. Fact is his body is too skinny. He will never fit into a Premiership side no matter how well he plays.

 

[Tigertom]

1.Or more realistically they will get a development player that will more than likely turn out to be a dud.


2.What if he doesn't play in the ones which is far more likely? Which player comes out of the side for JON?


3.Keep offloading our early picks? What precedent do you speak of? Only Ottens and Fiora in recent times. Fiora is similar to JON except he was actually getting games. Should we have persisted with him?

4.Draft position shouldn't stop a club from delisting players. JON has shown absolutely nothing in 3 years, and is lucky not to be playing coburg seconds. Sometimes you just have to admit you got the pick wrong and move on.

1. You don't know that anymore than anyone else on this board or the coaching dept. Richmond owes it to the members and supporters to ensure we get the best out of every player, especially our 20 year olds.

2. He may well not play in the ones but he should be given the same opportunity as everyone else. If he has a good pre-season and is in the coaches mind "up to it" then why shouldn't he play? By the same, if Raines for example is fit then someone will have to make way for him won't they? It's the coaches call not yours or mine!

3. I am refering to JON on this occasion but their are many posts on the Richmond board that want to trade players like JON, Tambling, Rance, Connors etc..... At least Fiora got an opportunity under spud to prove he wasn't what was expected of him when he was drafted.

4. He is no different to a number of other young fella's like Rance, Gourdis, Collins, Casserly, Putt except that JON was an early pick. These players could also be playing in the Coburg seconds. Or if they are setting the VFL on fire why are the still playing VFL?


I am under no illusions that JON will be a star or win a Brownlow etc. But given the same opportunity as everyone else on the list he could become a handy and versatile player, or he may not. History will be the judge of that not you or I gazing into crystal balls!

For the record as listed on the Richmond website JON is 188cm and 75kg, skinny some may say but compared to McMahon 185cm & 78kg and McGuanne 191cm & 76kg he is not the only one

Delist him, trade him or keep him? unfortunately we can't all be appeased!

 

[THE_GUN]

jons stats havent been updated since he arrived at the club & im pretty sure he has grown 1-2 inches since he arrived as a bottom aged draftee

it was reported that he had a lot of problems with shin splints due to his growth spurt and has gaind at least 8-9kgs since he arrived.

i would say just looking at him at coburg games he would be around
191-192cm and around 85-88 kgs

 

[beaver fever]

1. You don't know that anymore than anyone else on this board or the coaching dept. Richmond owes it to the members and supporters to ensure we get the best out of every player, especially our 20 year olds.

2. He may well not play in the ones but he should be given the same opportunity as everyone else. If he has a good pre-season and is in the coaches mind "up to it" then why shouldn't he play? By the same, if Raines for example is fit then someone will have to make way for him won't they? It's the coaches call not yours or mine!

3. I am refering to JON on this occasion but their are many posts on the Richmond board that want to trade players like JON, Tambling, Rance, Connors etc..... At least Fiora got an opportunity under spud to prove he wasn't what was expected of him when he was drafted.

4. He is no different to a number of other young fella's like Rance, Gourdis, Collins, Casserly, Putt except that JON was an early pick. These players could also be playing in the Coburg seconds. Or if they are setting the VFL on fire why are the still playing VFL?

1. You claimed he will be a good player. I'm claiming he is a dud. Why is your point valid yet mine is not? They owe it to us to get the best out of their players? Sure, that also means cutting players that are not good enough.

2. Point being that if he can't make the 22 by the end of his 4th season he should be on very very thin ice.

3. So what if there are posts by people. Let's focus on facts shall we. Fiora got a chance and he failed. JON has shown far less than even Fiora at this stage and you may not agree but I think it is just as likely he will turn out to be even more of a dud. There should be no room for sentimentality in list management. Football is a profession after all.

4. Poor comparisons here. Rance, Gourdis and Putt are 1st year players and are talls who take longer to develop, Collins 2nd year player that has showed decent form at Coburg, Casserly is 3rd granted but he has been ravaged by injuries and hasn't had a chance to show his wares.

I am under no illusions that JON will be a star or win a Brownlow etc. But given the same opportunity as everyone else on the list he could become a handy and versatile player, or he may not. History will be the judge of that not you or I gazing into crystal balls!

I think it is pretty apparent JON is riddled with deficiencies that come with development players, but over 3 years these same deficiencies remain. He has one more year at the most and will be moved on if he fails. To become a handy and versitle player you have to be able to kick the footy and not turn the ball over constantly. Both features of JON's games at Coburg and his few at senior level. Crystal Balls? He isn't going to have some miraculous improvement, after 3 years he has shown he is not up to it.

For the record as listed on the Richmond website JON is 188cm and 75kg, skinny some may say but compared to McMahon 185cm & 78kg and McGuanne 191cm & 76kg he is not the only one

Eh, this has to be one of the strangest arguments I have ever seen. If you want to be the best, you don't compare yourself to the worst.