AFLW Sign and Trade - Official Player Movements Discussion

[Teen Wolf]

Did the AFL really think they would equalise the comp with these rules?
So what if Melbourne could lose up to 5 players, history has shown those sides don’t lose players.
Instead, sides who had poor years and were without coaches lose an All-Australian and a 21-year old 2nd draft pick.
So the distance between the top and bottom sides gets further away.

Fremantle lost an injury-prone 32-33yo defender who can't kick.
Carlton lost a woefully mismanaged young talent.
Could've had a coat rack in the place of either player for the last 2 seasons and nobody would've noticed.

Compared to...
Brisbane lost Bates and Bodey
Adelaide lost Woodland
Collingwood lost Molloy

The gap between the two groups has been narrowed by the PSP. Not to mention how Bris/Adel/Coll cop a hard fixture again, while Frem/Carl get a much softer run this time.

 

[GalaxyBlue]

Carlton may cop a few thumpings next season if they don’t get some talent from somewhere or if Moody goes down

Problem is, we currently don’t have a coach nor a (permanent) head of women’s footy. Much harder to attract talent without any leadership or direction.

 

[Cdog71]

Problem is, we currently don’t have a coach nor a (permanent) head of women’s footy. Much harder to attract talent without any leadership or direction.

Things can turn around pretty quick, you got stiffed on this draft but hopefully you can do a bit of smoozing during the season and swing a few in and get a few good picks.

 

[footyknut]

Fremantle lost an injury-prone 32-33yo defender who can't kick.
Carlton lost a woefully mismanaged young talent.
Could've had a coat rack in the place of either player for the last 2 seasons and nobody would've noticed.

Compared to...
Brisbane lost Bates and Bodey
Adelaide lost Woodland
Collingwood lost Molloy

The gap between the two groups has been narrowed by the PSP. Not to mention how Bris/Adel/Coll cop a hard fixture again, while Frem/Carl get a much softer run this time.

Can’t deny too much of what you’re saying and the reason players are leaving those lower clubs is quite often because of bad management, and in those cases, neither has a coach in place when decisions were made to leave.
But, Melbourne look like going through unscathed and good luck to them as they obviously do a lot right.
The PSP was designed to even out the competition so does that mean, Brisbane get no compensation
Freo get a 1st rounder for Cuthbertson.
Carlton’s get 1st rounders for McEvoy
And Melbourne lose their next three years of 1st rounders?

 

[Teen Wolf]

Can’t deny too much of what you’re saying and the reason players are leaving those lower clubs is quite often because of bad management, and in those cases, neither has a coach in place when decisions were made to leave.
But, Melbourne look like going through unscathed and good luck to them as they obviously do a lot right.
The PSP was designed to even out the competition so does that mean, Brisbane get no compensation
Freo get a 1st rounder for Cuthbertson.
Carlton’s get 1st rounders for McEvoy
And Melbourne lose their next three years of 1st rounders?

Well we've been over the case of Brisbane. They won't be getting anything of value to them.

Freo are in direct competition with West Coast for WA-based players, and are still miles ahead. So getting a 1st rounder for Cuthbertson definitely wouldn't even out the competition.

I'll be surprised if Carlton don't get a 1st round draft pick for McEvoy.

Taking away Melbourne's 1st round picks has high backfire potential. If Tyanna Smith (random example) requests a trade to Melbourne but the Dees don't have their 1st round pick to give away, a trade will still get done. St Kilda would just have to accept severe unders, which throws the comp further out of whack.

 

[footyknut]

Well we've been over the case of Brisbane. They won't be getting anything of value to them.

Freo are in direct competition with West Coast for WA-based players, and are still miles ahead. So getting a 1st rounder for Cuthbertson definitely wouldn't even out the competition.

I'll be surprised if Carlton don't get a 1st round draft pick for McEvoy.

Taking away Melbourne's 1st round picks has high backfire potential. If Tyanna Smith (random example) requests a trade to Melbourne but the Dees don't have their 1st round pick to give away, a trade will still get done. St Kilda would just have to accept severe unders, which throws the comp further out of whack.

The AFL simply wouldn’t allow the Smith trade to take place, it would have to involve a player going the other way.
But let’s play Nicole Livingstone and work out what the compo should be for the players who have already been picked up via PSP.
I’ll go first and am open to criticism as I can’t quite get my head around how it can be made fair.
Collingwood get one beginning of 2nd rounder (after expansion clubs and anyone who finishes bottom 4) for Molloy (obviously worth more but Coll hafe very strong list so about equalisation)
Bris get one beginning of 2nd rounder (total, not each) (after expansion clubs and anyone who finishes bottom 4) for Bates and Bodey (combined they are worth more than Molloy but Brisbane have 2nd strongest list atm)
Frem get one beginning of 3rd rounder (after expansion clubs and anyone who finishes bottom 4) for Cuthbertson (32 and injury prone, would love more but that’s all she’s worth now)
Adelaide get no compensation. Escaped last season when they should have got raided and still giving up less than was expected.
Carlton get a first rounder (after bottom 4 clubs) for McEvoy. (Not currently worth that but they have been gutted by expansion without compensation)

I think Melbourne need something to happen to their list but can’t be done under the PSP rules so expect the AFL to make up another one.

 

[Teen Wolf]

The AFL simply wouldn’t allow the Smith trade to take place, it would have to involve a player going the other way.

Wrong. The AFL allowed/facilitated the Tayla Harris trade, wherein Melbourne only had to give up picks 32, 37 and 47 (while also getting picks 42 and 49 in return). For a 24yo 3x All-Australian (now a 25yo 4x All-Australian... and premiership player).

They aren't stopping players from getting to where they want to go. Nor are they forcing players to switch clubs against their will.

I think Melbourne need something to happen to their list but can’t be done under the PSP rules so expect the AFL to make up another one.

Yes this Melbourne dominance has gone on too long. At this stage there's a possibility that four-time grand finalists Adelaide and Brisbane only make the PFs next season. Something must be done!

 

[footyknut]

But Carlton didn’t want Harris, so it was obvious they wouldn’t get much for her.

They wanted to keep Davey so were compensated appropriately at that point.

 

[Teen Wolf]

But Carlton didn’t want Harris, so it was obvious they wouldn’t get much for her.

They wanted to keep Davey so were compensated appropriately at that point.

Wrong again. Harris was on a Tier 2 contract and Carlton offered to re-sign her on a Tier 2 contract. This is obvious, because otherwise she would've just signed with Melbourne as a restricted free agent.

Carlton didn't want to keep Davey at her asking price, same thing that happened with Harris. The difference is Collingwood had a high draft pick to give up, sheesh.

 

[Biggie]

AFLW Latest News - AFL.com.au/aflw

Latest breaking AFLW news from the official website of the Australian Football League.

www.womens.afl

ESSENDON has secured its first deal under the AFLW's new priority signing period (PSP) rules, locking away an agreement to poach highly rated North Melbourne defender Brooke Brown.

It's understood Brown informed Kangaroos officials of her decision to depart for Tullamarine on Tuesday, barely 24 hours before expansion clubs hit their PSP deadline at 2pm AEDT Wednesday.

 

[footyknut]

Wrong again. Harris was on a Tier 2 contract and Carlton offered to re-sign her on a Tier 2 contract. This is obvious, because otherwise she would've just signed with Melbourne as a restricted free agent.

Carlton didn't want to keep Davey at her asking price, same thing that happened with Harris. The difference is Collingwood had a high draft pick to give up, sheesh.

She was on a Tier 2 contract with an ASA component worth more than the Tier 2 contract.
She was offered the base Tier 2 contract because, as you pointed out, she could have left for nothing if she wasn’t.

 

[Teen Wolf]

She was on a Tier 2 contract with an ASA component worth more than the Tier 2 contract.
She was offered the base Tier 2 contract because, as you pointed out, she could have left for nothing if she wasn’t.

Carlton offered her ASA payments on top of a Tier 2 contract for 2022. Because they wanted to keep her. It was her employment agreement (non-playing, non-marketing work) that was cut, due to covid.

So for the third time, wrong.

In summary: The AFL aren't taking away Melbourne's 1st round draft picks.

 

[footyknut]

You would be right on the semantics of the deal.
She was on the employment agreement, as most are, as a way of paying her more as a player, not for the value she brought in as an employee.
Carlton didn’t want to pay her anything like the total package she was on because she wasn’t performing at a level to warrant the money.
Whether that was more the fault of her or the club could be argued but the bottom line was they didn’t want to pay her that and to get the best result of her leaving, they offered her a tier 2 contract and got something back from Melbourne.
And I agree, the AFL won’t take away Melbourne’s picks.
Now, as much I don’t like the way you go about arguing points, I do respect your opinion on most things AFLW, what do you think of my guesses at the compensation for players lost?
We can now thrown in NM who is imagined would receive the same compensation for Brown as Freo would for Cuthbertson.

 

[briztoon]

The AFL simply wouldn’t allow the Smith trade to take place, it would have to involve a player going the other way.
But let’s play Nicole Livingstone and work out what the compo should be for the players who have already been picked up via PSP.
I’ll go first and am open to criticism as I can’t quite get my head around how it can be made fair.
Collingwood get one beginning of 2nd rounder (after expansion clubs and anyone who finishes bottom 4) for Molloy (obviously worth more but Coll hafe very strong list so about equalisation)
Bris get one beginning of 2nd rounder (total, not each) (after expansion clubs and anyone who finishes bottom 4) for Bates and Bodey (combined they are worth more than Molloy but Brisbane have 2nd strongest list atm)
Frem get one beginning of 3rd rounder (after expansion clubs and anyone who finishes bottom 4) for Cuthbertson (32 and injury prone, would love more but that’s all she’s worth now)
Adelaide get no compensation. Escaped last season when they should have got raided and still giving up less than was expected.
Carlton get a first rounder (after bottom 4 clubs) for McEvoy. (Not currently worth that but they have been gutted by expansion without compensation)

I think Melbourne need something to happen to their list but can’t be done under the PSP rules so expect the AFL to make up another one.

What’s the point of giving Brisbane anything. We’re drafting from our own academy, and occasionally from the QAFLW.

Very rarely do we trade for a player from another state.

As I mentioned previously, picks aren’t worth much to us.

 

[Teen Wolf]

You would be right on the semantics of the deal.
She was on the employment agreement, as most are, as a way of paying her more as a player, not for the value she brought in as an employee.
Carlton didn’t want to pay her anything like the total package she was on because she wasn’t performing at a level to warrant the money.
Whether that was more the fault of her or the club could be argued but the bottom line was they didn’t want to pay her that and to get the best result of her leaving, they offered her a tier 2 contract and got something back from Melbourne.
And I agree, the AFL won’t take away Melbourne’s picks.
Now, as much I don’t like the way you go about arguing points, I do respect your opinion on most things AFLW, what do you think of my guesses at the compensation for players lost?
We can now thrown in NM who is imagined would receive the same compensation for Brown as Freo would for Cuthbertson.

The difference between "they didn't want her" and "actually they did want her" goes quite a bit beyond semantics.

I don't expect you to like having your numerous false statements exposed. Stop spreading wrong information, and I'll stop telling you that your information is wrong.

NM won't be getting anything of substance for Brown so, yes, the compensation will be quite similar to what Fremantle gets for Cuthbertson.

 

[jj15]

Anyone ask themselves why Melb don’t lose players?
Best coach and captain.
Now Daisy has gone will be interesting
Also Melbourne’s recruiting is the best by an absolute mile. Look at some of the pick ups they have selected late in the drafts, players from other sport backgrounds (Hore, West) and the trades that have been enacted (Odea, Guerin, Cordner and Newman and people called them crazy at the time?). Remember no one wanted Harris?

 

[FoopyNerd]

Very rarely do we trade for a player from another state.

Maybe it's time to change then? Presumably some amount of money opening up at the Lions now and some trade assets. I bet there would be one Victorian club out there keen to get themselves some youth and move on from a quality player who they might not see in their next premiership window.

 

[Teen Wolf]

Anyone ask themselves why Melb don’t lose players?
Best coach and captain.
Now Daisy has gone will be interesting
Also Melbourne’s recruiting is the best by an absolute mile. Look at some of the pick ups they have selected late in the drafts, players from other sport backgrounds (Hore, West) and the trades that have been enacted (Odea, Guerin, Cordner and Newman and people called them crazy at the time?). Remember no one wanted Harris?

And yet look at what this assortment of brilliant minds had to say about Melbourne's recruiting vs, say, Carlton's less than 3 years ago:

2020 AFLW Trade Period grades, winners and losers

Grading the performance of every AFLW team from the 2020 trade period

www.sen.com.au

Carlton
Grade: A

Melbourne
Grade: D

The Seven Winners Of The AFLW Trade Period - The Mongrel Punt

As the men toiled away through a weird season, several AFLW players changed places in the trade period. The Doc runs you through the winners.

themongrelpunt.com

#1 – Carlton
If the Blues weren’t a serious contender for the flag before, you definitely should consider them for 2021.

Elise O’Dea, what can I say that hasn’t already been mentioned by others? Melbourne’s loss is Carlton’s gain for sure.

AFLW Latest News - AFL.com.au/aflw

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Carlton
Sign and Trade rating: 9.5/10

Melbourne
Sign and Trade rating: 5/10

Hahahaha. Bunch of dummies.

 

[MSB ROYS]

Lions players usually leave for more money and the opportunity to live and play in Victoria, the home of football. With most of the 10 Victorian clubs trying to coax Brisbane's top players out of the club every year, it will be a constant battle moving forward. Perhaps they need to try and bring players from outside of Queensland, but I have my doubts that this is doable without 3rd party deals.

Also, it's not like there is only one team in Qld. The Suns' football junior program has been consistently outperforming Brisbane's, so expect them to rise up the ladder in the coming years.

 

[jj15]

And yet look at what this assortment of brilliant minds had to say about Melbourne's recruiting vs, say, Carlton's less than 3 years ago:

2020 AFLW Trade Period grades, winners and losers

Grading the performance of every AFLW team from the 2020 trade period

www.sen.com.au

The Seven Winners Of The AFLW Trade Period - The Mongrel Punt

As the men toiled away through a weird season, several AFLW players changed places in the trade period. The Doc runs you through the winners.

themongrelpunt.com

AFLW Latest News - AFL.com.au/aflw

Latest breaking AFLW news from the official website of the Australian Football League.

www.womens.afl

Hahahaha. Bunch of dummies.

That is so embarrassing. Melb list manager ran rings around them.

 

[CrowdedHouse]

And yet look at what this assortment of brilliant minds had to say about Melbourne's recruiting vs, say, Carlton's less than 3 years ago:

2020 AFLW Trade Period grades, winners and losers

Grading the performance of every AFLW team from the 2020 trade period

www.sen.com.au

The Seven Winners Of The AFLW Trade Period - The Mongrel Punt

As the men toiled away through a weird season, several AFLW players changed places in the trade period. The Doc runs you through the winners.

themongrelpunt.com

AFLW Latest News - AFL.com.au/aflw

Latest breaking AFLW news from the official website of the Australian Football League.

www.womens.afl

Hahahaha. Bunch of dummies.

It's fair to point out that Melbourne got a 'bonus season' out of Daisy, with Season 2022B, which was not on the cards at the time of that trade.

Had that not been introduced by the AFL, Daisy was not going round again in 2023.

Thus, the original point would have stood, that Daisy was done 2 seasons later.

I was never suggesting Junior was the better footballer, BUT you were going to get more seasons out of her.

 

[Teen Wolf]

It's fair to point out that Melbourne got a 'bonus season' out of Daisy, with Season 2022B, which was not on the cards at the time of that trade.

Had that not been introduced by the AFL, Daisy was not going round again in 2023.

Thus, the original point would have stood, that Daisy was done 2 seasons later.

I was never suggesting Junior was the better footballer, BUT you were going to get more seasons out of her.

Dude I wasn't taking a shot at you! I was picking on that CLOWN on Twitter who said Melbourne should get rid of a 32yo Daisy Pearce...

jj15's idea (that keeping her around helped sustain a strong culture at Melbourne) seems very compelling to me. Even if Elise O'Dea did have plenty of good footy left in her at the time of leaving the Dees--which has obviously turned out to not be the case--it was always going to be outweighed by the leadership that Pearce brought to the table.

Btw given that Daisy was an All-Australian and club B&F winner in S6, but still without an AFLW premiership, she was 100% going to play the following season. Whether it was in late 2022, or early 2023.

---

Anyway...





This Jason Lassey guy is such a sook. Wasn't calling AFLW a circus when Carlton were giftwrapped an inaugural licence, well before the club knew how to run a quality women's football program. No, that was all fine.

But now the club is facing the consequences of being ill-prepared and not prioritising women's football highly enough (by their own admission), and it's everybody else's fault.





Yes it's the loyalty of the supporters that have empowered the AFL. Not the loyalty of the players (nor the clubs). Hence the idea of "don't make the supporters mad" is really silly if you actually know the meaning of loyalty.

 

[Mkcaptain]

Dude I wasn't taking a shot at you! I was picking on that CLOWN on Twitter who said Melbourne should get rid of a 32yo Daisy Pearce...

Surely you know who Peter Holden is?

 

[CrowdedHouse]

Dude I wasn't taking a shot at you! I was picking on that CLOWN on Twitter who said Melbourne should get rid of a 32yo Daisy Pearce...

jj15's idea (that keeping her around helped sustain a strong culture at Melbourne) seems very compelling to me. Even if Elise O'Dea did have plenty of good footy left in her at the time of leaving the Dees--which has obviously turned out to not be the case--it was always going to be outweighed by the leadership that Pearce brought to the table.

Btw given that Daisy was an All-Australian and club B&F winner in S6, but still without an AFLW premiership, she was 100% going to play the following season. Whether it was in late 2022, or early 2023.

Daisy wasn't going to be back in 2023. When I spoke to her at the VFL/W League Awards night at the side of the room (about 20 minutes before she went up on stage), she said wanted to take up the Geelong opportunity and couldn't have done '23 due to the overlap (and we mainly talked old VWFL stuff - Darebin v Diamo, etc).

The idea of Melbourne moving on Daisy does make sense, if we use that timeline where season 2022b does not happen.

If Daisy was traded to Carlton (and Junior staying another year at Melbourne due to contract control), and then Junior, who after season 2021 insists she wants out, is also traded, you get something for both players.

If we stick with what happened and Junior traded to Carlton, with Daisy retiring after 2022 (and 2022b does not happen), then you only get something for one of them. Daisy's retirement would not bring in an experienced player or earlier draft pick.

Very common in American sports - move on the gun player in their twilight years to a franchise needing a gun for hire (or "rental" as some say) and get players/picks, rather than just letting them retire (for no future franchise benefit).

 

[jj15]

Melb knew O’Dea was slow and she was falling off a cliff. They knew that Smith was the same. They pushed both to leave and got compensated. They then went and got Macnamara, Caris and Fitzsimmon in the draft (three great athletes) before the compromised drafts that would come. This to go along with Bannan and Zanker ( two great athletes and their previous top picks).
Then next year bang Purcel and Harris trades that are simply both gold standard trading for Melb. They then get West as a rookie signing. Like wtf were the other clubs doing? None went for her.

This coupled with a cohort that stuck with the club from the outset ( Pearce, Mithen, L. pearce, Paxman, Hore, Lampard).