Small Forwards

[collingtimber]

It is more than obvious our forwad line is in need of some of some small forwards who can kick goals as well as apply pressure to the opposition when they have possesion in our forward half.With their pace Sinclair and Seedsman can do the latter but so far not the former.With Didaks return it should increase our goal kicking but I am not so sure he will increase our forward defensive pressure.The one player we have who can do both is undoubtly Dale Thomas.Another player I would love to see up in our forward line is Heath Shaw, who as we know has defensive skills in abundance,he also loves to kick a goal.Didak and Thomas are no brainers but the inclusion of Shaw in our forward line might just be the move that will make our forward line unbeatable.

 

[jc37]

Jamie Elliott is hopefully our man to take Sinclair's spot and the reason we gave up out first pick for him. 5 goals in 2 VFL games. Quick, classy and good overhead. hopefully he is one of the missing pieces to our puzzle.

 

[Wooljay]

Kirk Ugle and Jamie Elliott. I wouldn't say that Elliott is a straight swap for Sinclair though, as Sinkers is playing a role at the moment and I can't see Buckley tossing him out that quickly.

 

[blaze036]

Hopefully Elliot will turn into a medhurst type player, but with greater pressure.

mooneys pressure will be the one pf the best the AFL has ever seen when he builds his tank up... hopefully

 

[The Royal Sampler]

J Elliott, 3 votes.

Kicked 4 goals on debut and then was named in the bests in his second game. Has class, balance, and finishing ability. Is only 177cm but is strong overhead for his size and applies plenty of pressure.

 

[Jelly Bean]

Elliot may be good, but what we don't have is the type of small forward who hits the contest at pace, gets the ball in a one clean grab, and can put it through from all angles. This is the true small forward that we don't have - one with the skills to make the snaps from in close and under pressure.

That is what Carlton have in Betts and Garlett, and what Cyril is, etc. This is the type of small forward Leon used to be. Our small forwards seem to be moving away from goalkicking finishers to defensive beasts only, and this is one of the reasons we often kick more behinds than goals.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Sinclair is good with the pressure stuff but will hopefully one day be able to finish.

He's the polar opposite of Jack Anthony during his time at Collingwood.

Didak's return will improve us, we also have Ugle and Elliott coming through, and Fasolo is still only 15 games old or so don't forget.

Krakouer will be back this year with some luck, so come the year's end, we might be complaining of selection problems like we're about to with tall backs.

We'll be fine.

 

[lgarth80]

Elliot may be good, but what we don't have is the type of small forward who hits the contest at pace, gets the ball in a one clean grab, and can put it through from all angles. This is the true small forward that we don't have - one with the skills to make the snaps from in close and under pressure.

That is what Carlton have in Betts and Garlett, and what Cyril is, etc. This is the type of small forward Leon used to be. Our small forwards seem to be moving away from goalkicking finishers to defensive beasts only, and this is one of the reasons we often kick more behinds than goals.

Give it time. We lost Krak the true forward pocket, and the loss of Ball removed a few players from the forward line as often (Beams, Sidey, Blair)

On Daisy (prev post), we have already played Thomas up front - as recently as 2009, when plenty were calling Daisy over rated, and he has greatly increased his influence as a wing.

If Elliott keeps up his vfl form, he will certainly get his chance. Not convinced he can walk in and make a bigger impact than Fas being a first year player with no preseason and limited tank, something small forwards need.

It took Garlett, Betts and Yarran ages to get our respect. Elliott and Sinclair will need the same amount of time.

 

[Jelly Bean]

Give it time. We lost Krak the true forward pocket, and the loss of Ball removed a few players from the forward line as often (Beams, Sidey, Blair)

On Daisy (prev post), we have already played Thomas up front - as recently as 2009, when plenty were calling Daisy over rated, and he has greatly increased his influence as a wing.

If Elliott keeps up his vfl form, he will certainly get his chance. Not convinced he can walk in and make a bigger impact than Fas being a first year player with no preseason and limited tank, something small forwards need.

It took Garlett, Betts and Yarran ages to get our respect. Elliott and Sinclair will need the same amount of time.

I guess the point I am making is a little different. I am saying that I want sublime skills in a small forward, and Sinclair (no matter how long he gets) will never have those skills. Ever.

I don't mean just good, I mean the ability to kick genuine banannas from both feet and get them more time than not.

 

[Mansons Haircut]

I guess the point I am making is a little different. I am saying that I want sublime skills in a small forward, and Sinclair (no matter how long he gets) will never have those skills. Ever.

I don't mean just good, I mean the ability to kick genuine banannas from both feet and get them more time than not.

So you want Daicos to make a comeback? Don't we all....

 

[jathanas]

So you want Daicos to make a comeback? Don't we all....

Gold! Thanks for the chuckle.

Give it time. We lost Krak the true forward pocket, and the loss of Ball removed a few players from the forward line as often (Beams, Sidey, Blair)

On Daisy (prev post), we have already played Thomas up front - as recently as 2009, when plenty were calling Daisy over rated, and he has greatly increased his influence as a wing.

If Elliott keeps up his vfl form, he will certainly get his chance. Not convinced he can walk in and make a bigger impact than Fas being a first year player with no preseason and limited tank, something small forwards need.

It took Garlett, Betts and Yarran ages to get our respect. Elliott and Sinclair will need the same amount of time.

I couldn't agree more. It's too optimistic too expect that a young first year player will walk into the seniors and have a major impact. Even with Fasolo who shows glimpses we need to be patient. Developing youth is not easy...

 

[lgarth80]

So you want Daicos to make a comeback? Don't we all....

I think Daicos could still snag a few goals parking himself in a pocket like Alwyn Davey. Absolute gun and would have lost none of his pace, because he had little to begin with. But he had time, eons of it.

Pendlebury is the only player I've seen with the same sort of time and space.

 

[Jelly Bean]

Gold! Thanks for the chuckle.



I couldn't agree more. It's too optimistic too expect that a young first year player will walk into the seniors and have a major impact. Even with Fasolo who shows glimpses we need to be patient. Developing youth is not easy...

Again, I think I am being misunderstood. I don't expect a young player to step in (although Sinclair is in his third year, not first) and have a major impact - it is more about the type of player for forward pocket.

We don't have a genuine clever / silky crumbing forward pocket on our list AFTER Krakouer. Sinclair will never have the skills that I am talking about, and is being used more as a defensive forward than attacking forward. Ugle is possibly a little too one-sided and doesn't quite have the skills.

 

[lgarth80]

We don't have a genuine clever / silky crumbing forward pocket on our list AFTER Krakouer.

That's probably why we drafted him. To fill a gap. Now he's injured, and I hope he returns this year at his very best (I am doubtful this will occur, to be truthful). Until then we need to plug gaps.

Didak and Fasolo are not quick but they are classy. Give them any sort of time or space and they will convert.

Wellingham is probably the player who could stay forward and do the job most here are talking about, but his disposal needs to improve with his snaps. In terms of his ability to hit the packs at pace and goal, then he's got this in spades, plus a great forward defensive option. Not sure if we are robbing the midfield by using him in this capacity, but probably not as it then allows Beams/Sidebottom the chance to broaden their development.

 

[jathanas]

Again, I think I am being misunderstood. I don't expect a young player to step in (although Sinclair is in his third year, not first) and have a major impact - it is more about the type of player for forward pocket.

We don't have a genuine clever / silky crumbing forward pocket on our list AFTER Krakouer. Sinclair will never have the skills that I am talking about, and is being used more as a defensive forward than attacking forward. Ugle is possibly a little too one-sided and doesn't quite have the skills.

Not too many teams have an asset like The Krak, which is why he is so hard to replace for us.

He's a very instinctive player, with a sharp peripheral awareness so it wouldn't be easy to train these skills up on a young guy either...

When a guy like that goes missing through injury you can't easily plan for a replacement as you would with a half-back. You'd change your forward structure and your game-plan...

I think our part-solution is a fit and firing Didak.

 

[Mansons Haircut]

Again, I think I am being misunderstood. I don't expect a young player to step in (although Sinclair is in his third year, not first) and have a major impact - it is more about the type of player for forward pocket.

We don't have a genuine clever / silky crumbing forward pocket on our list AFTER Krakouer. Sinclair will never have the skills that I am talking about, and is being used more as a defensive forward than attacking forward. Ugle is possibly a little too one-sided and doesn't quite have the skills.

Sorry mate I was just being smart. I actually agree with you. All of our small forwards seem to be workers or midfielders who can't a gig up the field. A genuinely dangerous small forward who oppositions have to fear and respect is a big gap in our current best 22. Of the current available list in the short term I hold high hopes for Jamie Elliot, saw him in tac cup last year and the last 2 vfl games and he is just what you describe. Quick, classy, can score from anywhere, x-factor and strong overhead. Also very good defensive pressure. Think he may need a few more weeks in vfl as been injured most of last 9 months. The other 2 are Ugle, much improved and I'm liking but not sold yet, deserves some senior games though. The smokey in Caolan Mooney, freakish speed, agility and leap. Scoring goals consistently. Arguably already best defensive pressure at club. Improving every game and could explode at any time. Big ask to expect him to impact this year although it would not suprise. Has a load of mongrel too.
The cupboard isn't bare but until they play some afl games its all guesswork!

 

[The Royal Sampler]

So we need to find a physically mature, elusive, sublimely skilled, hard-working small forward with exceptional ability below his knees? Well that should be easy...

 

[Mansons Haircut]

So we need to find a physically mature, elusive, sublimely skilled, hard-working small forward with exceptional ability below his knees? Well that should be easy...

I assume you've been stalking both daics jnr boys, can we convince the afl to do a reverse mature rookie rule and let us put a couple of u/12 "immature" rookies on the list...

 

[The Royal Sampler]

That's between my parole officer and I.

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

I think if we intend to get back to the dynamism we had in 2010, we need the following structure:

2 X Key position forward
1 X Medium forward, reasonable overhead, strong tackler
1 X Classy flanker with good delivery and ball finding ability
1 X Goal 'poacher' small forward
1 X Pressure small forward, preferably with pace and good kicking skills

I think that means the following team is our best bet right now:

Elliott, Cloke, Goldsack
Didak, Dawes, Fasolo

Cloke is the obvious star of the forward line.

Even if Dawes is in poor form, he takes a good back and can almost be a 'decoy' for Cloke as we've often used Leroy in the past.

Goldsack can play the role Macaffer played in 2010 and I think he has the attributes to be great at it. He just needs to be told to lead hard to the wings to spread the forward line and to put on as much pressure as possible. He is quick, good overhead and tackles like a beast. He is also a reasonable kick, the goals will come.

Didak's finishing skills mean that he can put the ball on a plate for the leading forwards, something severely lacking in our forward line right now and his obvious qualities are too great to leave out for a perceived lack of pressure. He makes up for it with creativity and an ability to find the ball.

Fasolo is the 'poacher.' He doesn't get it much but what he does is often gold. He has a great habit of dong a few really influential things in quick succession and it changes games.

I've gone with Elliott, despite the fact that he is unproven, for the simple fact that he has the pace to create the required level of forward pressure but unlike Sinclair, he can finish off his chances. The above forward line would be good at locking the ball in because our two talls are brilliant at following up for big men and Goldsack is a great pressure player. Sinclair can't get by ONLY on the pressure he applies. We will lose more for his poor skills than we will gain for his pressure. A small decrease in pressure might result from playing a guy like Elliott (although considering his pace he will still be very good at it) but his skills would be an enormous step up. Size/strength isn't a huge consideration either. Yarran was always slight but even as a first year player the forward pressure, created through pace alone, was huge. Davey was another great example early in his career. I honestly think if Elliott or Ugle don't come off and Krakouer doesn't come back before year's end, we might have to bight the bullet and play Thomas forward. He, with his increased strength/discipline/endurance/concentration would be a gun medium now. He is a beast of a tackler as well. Wellingham is another option. He is a great tackler and also doesn't lack in pace.

 

[Buena]

I've watched a few games from 2010 this last week, and i think we really miss McCaffer. I didn't really notice it at the time, but he did such a great job for us. Was primed for a big year too. Strong over head, tackled well, and kicked goals. Not the nippy 1 grab player being spoken of here, but really handy.

I'd love to see more games put into Ugle, and to see Mooney develop.

 

[Bay Pie]

I think Elliott can have a similar impact to what Blair in the 2nd half of 2010.

Don't rush him now. Let him get some miles in the legs and some confidence up then bring him in after the bye. He brings the attributes we are looking for. I understand he is a 1st year player but he is the age of most 2nd year players.

 

[Jelly Bean]

Elliott, Cloke, Goldsack
Didak, Dawes, Fasolo

.

I would prefer Blair where you have Elliot (in lieu of Krakouer) and Tarrant where you have Goldsack. Otherwise, when Dawes changes into the ruck, Goldy would need to play stronger as a key marking target which I don't think he can do.

And on Mooney - it is good he has good defensive pressure, but PLEASE Bucks, give him a go up the ground. He will be even better running with the ball than without it (and it would be a better use of his pace in my opinion...)

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

I would prefer Blair where you have Elliot (in lieu of Krakouer) and Tarrant where you have Goldsack. Otherwise, when Dawes changes into the ruck, Goldy would need to play stronger as a key marking target which I don't think he can do

I thought about Blair because he's obviously got the goal kicking ability but I think that despite his obvious agility, he isn't overly quick, which is something I think we need to inject into our forward line.

Also, when Reid comes back, would it be worth trying Keefe as the second ruck? Leigh Brown wasn't much of a ruckman and a sometimes reasonable defender. Keefe on the other hand is genuine ruck height and looks like becoming a really good, 'proper' defender. He'd certainly be harder to jump over than L Brown was or Dawes is, the downside being that his lesser strength won't allow him to hurt his ruck opponents like the others can which softens them up for Jolly. People seem to think it won't be good for his physical or footballing development but he really won't get many ruck minutes (as Brown didn't and Dawes doesn't) and his game will certainly develop quicker than it will in the VFL. I think Dawes is struggling as a forward right now and needs a sole focus of improving there to get better. He is also important for our structure up forward.

 

[Jelly Bean]

I thought about Blair because he's obviously got the goal kicking ability but I think that despite his obvious agility, he isn't overly quick, which is something I think we need to inject into our forward line.

Also, when Reid comes back, would it be worth trying Keefe as the second ruck? Leigh Brown wasn't much of a ruckman and a sometimes reasonable defender. Keefe on the other hand is genuine ruck height and looks like becoming a really good, 'proper' defender. He'd certainly be harder to jump over than L Brown was or Dawes is, the downside being that his lesser strength won't allow him to hurt his ruck opponents like the others can which softens them up for Jolly. People seem to think it won't be good for his physical or footballing development but he really won't get many ruck minutes (as Brown didn't and Dawes doesn't) and his game will certainly develop quicker than it will in the VFL. I think Dawes is struggling as a forward right now and needs a sole focus of improving there to get better. He is also important for our structure up forward.

Yeah, absolutely. It is an often debated issue, but I think Keeffe would be an options as the second ruck / third forward as well. Tarrant / Dawes would be my first option for this role however, but we could just playy around with it and see how it goes.

It is going to be fascinating when all four are up for selection - I suspect Bucks will only play 3 in the one team at any given time, but I hope we find a forward out of one of them.