Politics So I guess when the s**t hits the fan, everyone's a socialist

[Baltimore Jack]

View attachment 847389

Oh dear....

 

[Father Jack]

Most people who purport to be against socialism don't even know what they're arguing against, as that list proves.

 

[A Cut Above]

Self-explanatory title. Given the massive stimulus measures taken by governments around the world in response to this pandemic and the measures taken during the GFC, can we finally put the nail in the coffin for hard-line neoliberal economic rationalism that some still pretend is in force?

Well done to governments taking steps to protect people and the economy.

Socialist policies are being employed because the necessity of keeping most of the workforce at home effectively removes the option of allowing private enterprise to solve current issues.

Philosophically, socialism's great for desperate times when there's a critical need for wealth distribution as a matter of life & death, but unfortunately socialism doesn't generate wealth or innovation as effectively as capitalism does. Neither ideology is perfect and I would argue a blend of both is ideal, which thankfully is what our modern society reflects. Balancing the two is an ongoing, open-ended question.

 

[go you pups]

That is one of the most ridiculous Tea Party themed list that has been posted on BigFooty since any Kane Cornes article.

Otherwise known as a hurrdurrism

 

[Mofra]

Philosophically, socialism's great for desperate times when there's a critical need for wealth distribution as a matter of life & death, but unfortunately socialism doesn't generate wealth or innovation as effectively as capitalism does. Neither ideology is perfect and I would argue a blend of both is ideal, which thankfully is what our modern society reflects. Balancing the two is an ongoing, open-ended question.

This is a very well put together summary. Agree wholeheartedly.

 

[skipper kelly]

I'm wondering this for sure. I'm sure there will still be trade and OS level but not sure as to what level. We might see local manufacturing again!

It would be good but won't the long term viability depend on if consumers are prepared to pay a bit extra for good and services?

 

[the_interloper]

It would be good but won't the long term viability depend on if consumers are prepared to pay a bit extra for good and services?

The government can make it viable with tariffs and stuff id imagine.

 

[skipper kelly]

The government can make it viable with tariffs and stuff id imagine.

Cheers. It would be good if manufacturing started up again on a bigger scale as a result of this virus. It was always easy to get a job in the 80's with manufacturing being a fall back. I do feel for the younger ones these days who cant just walk into a factory, present well and have a reasonably good chance of getting a job. Didn't even need a bit of paper saying how good you were. Life did seem easier. Maybe it wasn't.

 

[Mofra]

Cheers. It would be good if manufacturing started up again on a bigger scale as a result of this virus. It was always easy to get a job in the 80's with manufacturing being a fall back. I do feel for the younger ones these days who cant just walk into a factory, present well and have a reasonably good chance of getting a job. Didn't even need a bit of paper saying how good you were. Life did seem easier. Maybe it wasn't.

We'll have a huge shortage this picking season, although it's not a job for everyone.

 

[skipper kelly]

We'll have a huge shortage this picking season, although it's not a job for everyone.

Now that is tough work.

 

[Mofra]

Now that is tough work.

I have a mate that does it for 3 months a year, 12-14 hour days. Lives in his van so pays no accomodation. Works as an artist the rest of the year not working too hard, so it can make for an interesting lifestyle. It is a tough gig, anecdotally they lose a lot of workers in the first 1-2 weeks and the people who stick it out after that tend to be in it for the long haul.

 

[Frank Bunn]

I'm aware of this very problem that one of my clients is facing right now. Unfortunate but something they did not prepare for.

I spoke to my mate who works for Telstra. Their call centre in Philippines that handles customer calls has closed. Their centres in India, that handle internal IT and customer technical issues, have closed. For data security reasons neither group is permitted to work from home. In the last few years Telstra has made many thousands of onshore staff redundant and replaced them with cheaper offshore staff. This scenario will be applicable to most of the big companies in the West.

 

[CM9000]

Socialist policies are being employed because the necessity of keeping most of the workforce at home effectively removes the option of allowing private enterprise to solve current issues.

Philosophically, socialism's great for desperate times when there's a critical need for wealth distribution as a matter of life & death, but unfortunately socialism doesn't generate wealth or innovation as effectively as capitalism does. Neither ideology is perfect and I would argue a blend of both is ideal, which thankfully is what our modern society reflects. Balancing the two is an ongoing, open-ended question.

I disagree. Many people might not realise this, but socialism and capitalism don't just affect things economically. They impact our culture, mindset, the way we approach things - as it currently stands, capitalism has completely domineered so many aspects of our lives, that we're now at a point we're we can't imagine any other alternative. It basically is the way we think.

A lot of the problems we have in society are only there because we say they are. Jeff Bezos doesn't really need a trillion dollars, but we just let him have it without any questions asked because, well, reasons. There is no actual justification for that fact at all, and yet he's still sitting on the largest pile of money in the world for an individual.

 

[Marcel Proust]

The reason why the 1890s and 1930s depressions were so bad was because governments decided to sit on their hands in the mistaken belief that the private sector would look after itself but in both cases the private sector was frozen in fear and instead of looking after people it simply didn't. Current policy responses wont make people embrace socialism or communism but it will show that government does play a useful role in the economy.

The useful role of taking poor people's money for massive Dole corporate handouts / lemon socialism

Reverting back to a capitalism consumer system with lobby and more corporate subsidies when they feel like it?

It certainly seems a lot more pretty the way you have written it. I question if you are holding rose coloured glasses.

It's a bit hypocritical and shady at best, at worse evil. Like 08FC showed it's not real capitalism. If you didn't already know previously. It's a scam

 

[the_interloper]

I disagree. Many people might not realise this, but socialism and capitalism don't just affect things economically. They impact our culture, mindset, the way we approach things - as it currently stands, capitalism has completely domineered so many aspects of our lives, that we're now at a point we're we can't imagine any other alternative. It basically is the way we think.

A lot of the problems we have in society are only there because we say they are. Jeff Bezos doesn't really need a trillion dollars, but we just let him have it without any questions asked because, well, reasons. There is no actual justification for that fact at all, and yet he's still sitting on the largest pile of money in the world for no goddamn reason.

 

[EasternTiger]

A lot of the problems we have in society are only there because we say they are. Jeff Bezos doesn't really need a trillion dollars, but we just let him have it without any questions asked because, well, reasons. There is no actual justification for that fact at all, and yet he's still sitting on the largest pile of money in the world for no goddamn reason.

China holds a trillion dollars in T-bonds.

Still needs to raid our medical supplies.

 

[Bombermania]

The useful role of taking poor people's money for massive Dole corporate handouts / lemon socialism

Reverting back to a capitalism consumer system with lobby and more corporate subsidies when they feel like it?

It certainly seems a lot more pretty the way you have written it. I question if you are holding rose coloured glasses.

It's a bit hypocritical and shady at best, at worse evil. Like 08FC showed it's not real capitalism. If you didn't already know previously. It's a scam

You should go and read a bit of history about the 1890s and 1930s depressions.

Neoliberalism or government taking a hands off approach does not work when the economy is under stress and there is a reason for that because the government and the private sector are part of the one economic system underpinned by the bond market.

Government debt is held by the holders of those bonds which in many cases are government agencies, departments and other investors including superannuation.

It is still a capital driven consumer system and that is exactly the point because if the private sector becomes fearful and government chooses to shut up shop then the system comes to a halt.

People pay tax that goes into consolidated revenue that is then spent as the government of the day sees fit and poor people pay little to no income tax and Governments are already providing subsidies to the private sector through a range of direct and indirect transactions ranging from major projects, the outsourcing of services or purchase of services and the taxation system.

 

[DickieKnee]

Funniest thing is those US cruise companies that have their ships registered in the Cayman Islands and such to avoid paying taxes. They are now after government bail outs.

 

[GoldStandard]

I don't like politics in my sports

 

[A Cut Above]

A lot of the problems we have in society are only there because we say they are. Jeff Bezos doesn't really need a trillion dollars, but we just let him have it without any questions asked because, well, reasons. There is no actual justification for that fact at all, and yet he's still sitting on the largest pile of money in the world for an individual.

I suppose you think a lot of these problems that are "only there because we say they are" would magically vanish if we snapped our fingers and embraced the joyous wonders of Communism eh?


Vastly more intelligent and informed men than yourself have dedicated their entire lives to solving our social and economic problems yet in your supreme clueless arrogance you would spit on their efforts by believing a fool like yourself holds all the answers, solutions so dreadfully simple and correct yet mysteriously the entire world refuses to adopt them, how tragic!

You're probably too vapid to even realize why our species actually needs men like Jeff Bezos, why its so vital our society offers exceedingly rare visionaries of his ilk every possible freedom and economic incentive to take enormous innovative risks that propel us into a better future. One thing is certain - mindless caricatures like yourself aren't going to do it, nor will the kind of socialist bureaucracies you probably envisage replacing him with.

Had you understood my previous post (doubtful) you'd have recognized I advocate for a blend of capitalism and socialism. Bezos' obscene wealth isn't a failure of the capitalist ideology - its a failure to scale capitalism to a post-globalization planetary level. Although we have a free market so theoretically you'd expect smaller, cheaper & more efficient rivals to Amazon, Google & Facebook to appear and steal their market share, the reality is the cost of competing with these behemoths is so unthinkably prohibitive they remain unchallenged.
How that problem is solved is beyond my understanding, but the "solutions" you probably have in mind -direct government intervention in splitting them up, controlling how they're run and even outright stealing their wealth- would be straight out of a Fascist textbook.

Capitalism's far from perfect but if it conferred no benefits and only created problems we wouldn't use it, since not all our leaders are as ignorant as you are.

 

[Father Jack]

I suppose you think a lot of these problems that are "only there because we say they are" would magically vanish if we snapped our fingers and embraced the joyous wonders of Communism eh?


Vastly more intelligent and informed men than yourself have dedicated their entire lives to solving our social and economic problems yet in your supreme clueless arrogance you would spit on their efforts by believing a fool like yourself holds all the answers, solutions so dreadfully simple and correct yet mysteriously the entire world refuses to adopt them, how tragic!

You're probably too vapid to even realize why our species actually needs men like Jeff Bezos, why its so vital our society offers exceedingly rare visionaries of his ilk every possible freedom and economic incentive to take enormous innovative risks that propel us into a better future. One thing is certain - mindless caricatures like yourself aren't going to do it, nor will the kind of socialist bureaucracies you probably envisage replacing him with.

Had you understood my previous post (doubtful) you'd have recognized I advocate for a blend of capitalism and socialism. Bezos' obscene wealth isn't a failure of the capitalist ideology - its a failure to scale capitalism to a post-globalization planetary level. Although we have a free market so theoretically you'd expect smaller, cheaper & more efficient rivals to Amazon, Google & Facebook to appear and steal their market share, the reality is the cost of competing with these behemoths is so unthinkably prohibitive they remain unchallenged.
How that problem is solved is beyond my understanding, but the "solutions" you probably have in mind -direct government intervention in splitting them up, controlling how they're run and even outright stealing their wealth- would be straight out of a Fascist textbook.

Capitalism's far from perfect but if it conferred no benefits and only created problems we wouldn't use it, since not all our leaders are as ignorant as you are.

That's a bizarrely combative post for what I thought was a fairly reasonable statement. Why should so much money be concentrated in so few hands? How does that benefit society?

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

That's a bizarrely combative post for what I thought was a fairly reasonable statement. Why should so much money be concentrated in so few hands? How does that benefit society?

An oddly abusive reply full of straw man arguments.

Weird.

 

[go you pups]

China holds a trillion dollars in T-bonds.

Still needs to raid our medical supplies.

Not a good look, but free market?

 

[CM9000]

I suppose you think a lot of these problems that are "only there because we say they are" would magically vanish if we snapped our fingers and embraced the joyous wonders of Communism eh?


Vastly more intelligent and informed men than yourself have dedicated their entire lives to solving our social and economic problems yet in your supreme clueless arrogance you would spit on their efforts by believing a fool like yourself holds all the answers, solutions so dreadfully simple and correct yet mysteriously the entire world refuses to adopt them, how tragic!

You're probably too vapid to even realize why our species actually needs men like Jeff Bezos, why its so vital our society offers exceedingly rare visionaries of his ilk every possible freedom and economic incentive to take enormous innovative risks that propel us into a better future. One thing is certain - mindless caricatures like yourself aren't going to do it, nor will the kind of socialist bureaucracies you probably envisage replacing him with.

Had you understood my previous post (doubtful) you'd have recognized I advocate for a blend of capitalism and socialism. Bezos' obscene wealth isn't a failure of the capitalist ideology - its a failure to scale capitalism to a post-globalization planetary level. Although we have a free market so theoretically you'd expect smaller, cheaper & more efficient rivals to Amazon, Google & Facebook to appear and steal their market share, the reality is the cost of competing with these behemoths is so unthinkably prohibitive they remain unchallenged.
How that problem is solved is beyond my understanding, but the "solutions" you probably have in mind -direct government intervention in splitting them up, controlling how they're run and even outright stealing their wealth- would be straight out of a Fascist textbook.

Capitalism's far from perfect but if it conferred no benefits and only created problems we wouldn't use it, since not all our leaders are as ignorant as you are.

I'm pretty certain you're not being 100% serious in some of what you're saying, but look at it this way.

The principles underlying capitalism are amoral. They are held to an understanding of human nature that is flawed - specifically, it states that we are naturally selfish, we care for our own over others, and that encouraging this is good. Domination is another aspect of it, specifically over the natural world, but moreso, just in general. These things are not bound by a higher morality that determines which actions are right, or what is prohibited. This means you end up in situations where the system is itself an evil - the wealth disparity being a prime example.

If you agree that humans are naturally selfish, them fine, but that doesn't mean we should encourage it. I personally believe that we aren't either (good or evil by nature). We choose by our actions - however, the main thing I'm getting at here is this favouring of the "market" over everything else is the problem.

Socialism has always had emancipatory aims, ones that advocate for not just supporting the status quo, but striving for a better world. Capitalism is deeply tied to our conception of a modern society, and so informs our governments and politics - it isn't a coincidence that the two countries recognised as the first true societies (France and America) were the last major nations to outlaw slavery. We can't seperate capitalism from its amorality, so we have to use other methods that actually have moral principles. Taking a part of the billions that Jeff Bezos sits on and using it to help poor people isn't a bad thing.

 

[Lethality]

They're really doubling down on the capitalism now. People are dying, America is the new epicentre, but women need to get their nails done, apparently.