Society/Culture The seemingly growing anti 'western' sentiment in 'western' societies.

[Seeds]

You should always be sceptical and never trust the science until you've sussed it out for yourself.

Wait no. You rely on the majority of experts to suss it out. Not yourself.

have I sussed out with my own experiments that all the food in my fridge, water in my taps and medicine in my cabinet is not poisonous? Nope. I didnt. I relied on scientists to do it for me through numerous peer reviewed testing that I had no part in. Im Pretty sure you would be in the same boat as me in this regard. Correct me if Im wrong here?

be skeptical of individual scienctific experiments. Sure. But we should trust scientists when the bulk of them come to the same conclusion with repeated testing.

I havent done a single bit of climate science myself. i dont need to. The 40000 odd peer reviewed climate analysis all come to the same conclusion. The climate is changing due to rising emissions. I can trust that bulk of work to be true without sussing it out myself.

 

[Seeds]

You actually believe every single generation is worse than the one before it? The difference with the west has been rampant capitalism and striving for infinite growth since the Industrial Revolution.

We need collective action and working together for a greater good. This is anathema to the capitalist west who will equate this with Soviet Union and gulags.

In basic terms we are ****ed with our current attitude worldwide. Nothing will be done about climate change until it’s literally made many places uninhabitable.

Climate change is being solved with renewables and batteries and green hydrogen. How can you say nothing is being done about climate change? Are you not aware of these technologies that are currently being installed and adopted?

that quest for infinite growth you complain about has dramatically lowered poverty rates globally, dramatically increased life expectancy, dramatically reduced the time people spend doing household chores and no doubt been a major driver of dramatic falls in violence rates and dramatic increases in female and minority rights. But hey, lets unwind all of that cos......

 

[ferball]

Wait no. You rely on the majority of experts to suss it out. Not yourself.

If you can read you can read scientific papers and you can read the responses to them and follow up on that.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Climate change is being solved with renewables and batteries and green hydrogen. How can you say nothing is being done about climate change? Are you not aware of these technologies that are currently being installed and adopted?

that quest for infinite growth you complain about has dramatically lowered poverty rates globally, dramatically increased life expectancy, dramatically reduced the time people spend doing household chores and no doubt been a major driver of dramatic falls in violence rates and dramatic increases in female and minority rights. But hey, lets unwind all of that cos......

A lot is being done to enrich a class of elites, ruin the countryside, and the surrounding seas if they have their way and can find some suckers to invest in it (strange how the singing whales are silent on the subject), head us towards being a poorer nation (although we’ll have eliminated our 1% of the world’s emissions), endanger our food supply - and you know what? It all won’t make a blinking difference to the climate.

Follow the money - always.

 

[evolved2]

The standard of living was higher in Australia than Europe at the time of the invasion and the life ex[ectancy was the same or slightly higher here. Europe in the late 1700s was a brutal uncivilised place where governments tortured criminals to death, arranged famines and forced children to work in appalling conditions.

There was no modern medicine to be brought to this land.

How do you think indigenous Australians would fare today if this land wasn't invaded?

 

[evolved2]

Aboriginal people definitely had a different societal structure and way of life from Europeans. That isn’t to say they were less ‘intelligent’. They were agricultural experts whom had survived off the land and had a functioning society.

PS - I am agreeing with you on all this!

Point is that their society didn’t warrant being invaded and replaced.

What would warrant a society being invaded?

 

[ferball]

How do you think indigenous Australians would fare today if this land wasn't invaded?

I honestly don't know.

If they lived in a vacuum then they'd be doing as well as they did back then. Which isn't a uniform thing. The East Coast was a great place to live. It had abundant food and a reasonably good climate. There were massive festivals at certain food harvests that saw people from many different nations travelling along well maintained routes where essential needs were supplied by the locals as they went to the same festivals.

if other nations had invaded then things would be similar, if they hadn't but landed on the shores and there was interactions of the sort that happened in the North and North West then I imagine their society would have changed and "advanced". (Advanced is in quotes because they weren't a primative people. Their understanding of the land and human nature/psychology is pretty advanced.)

Alot of indigenous people around the world viewed Europeans as barbaric slaves in the old days. They didn't consider them free people, they were owned by their kings and emperors and they lived in societies where the poor were homeless and starving. There are many accounts of indigenous people (especially from N America) travelling thru European societies in the New world and Europe and basically saying wtte of "You people are ****ed. You defer to arseholes and don't look after each other while the arseholes take everything you make or grow and you let them do it without putting up a fight."

 

[Captivating]

I honestly don't know.

If they lived in a vacuum then they'd be doing as well as they did back then. Which isn't a uniform thing. The East Coast was a great place to live. It had abundant food and a reasonably good climate. There were massive festivals at certain food harvests that saw people from many different nations travelling along well maintained routes where essential needs were supplied by the locals as they went to the same festivals.

if other nations had invaded then things would be similar, if they hadn't but landed on the shores and there was interactions of the sort that happened in the North and North West then I imagine their society would have changed and "advanced". (Advanced is in quotes because they weren't a primative people. Their understanding of the land and human nature/psychology is pretty advanced.)

Alot of indigenous people around the world viewed Europeans as barbaric slaves in the old days. They didn't consider them free people, they were owned by their kings and emperors and they lived in societies where the poor were homeless and starving. There are many accounts of indigenous people (especially from N America) travelling thru European societies in the New world and Europe and basically saying wtte of "You people are ****ed. You defer to arseholes and don't look after each other while the arseholes take everything you make or grow and you let them do it without putting up a fight."

Remember, the arseholes ALWAYS win.

 

[ferball]

Remember, the arseholes ALWAYS win.

No they don't.

 

[barreness]

Climate change is being solved with renewables and batteries and green hydrogen. How can you say nothing is being done about climate change? Are you not aware of these technologies that are currently being installed and adopted?

As emissions keep growing by the day.........solved(washes hands)

that quest for infinite growth you complain about has dramatically lowered poverty rates globally, dramatically increased life expectancy, dramatically reduced the time people spend doing household chores and no doubt been a major driver of dramatic falls in violence rates and dramatic increases in female and minority rights. But hey, lets unwind all of that cos......

You are energy blind. "A machine without energy is a statue, a body a corpse". What's the end condition? Three trillionaires and a dead planet

There's very little evidence of violent deaths in hunter gatherers(until they encountered agrarian cultures), what there is could be attributed to accidents. They were certainly less hierarchical and some sided more matriarchal than patriarchal.
Viewing very human and social things like cooking and cleaning as a chore is part of the problem.

And what good is all that in a mass extinction.
Let's unwind that because it's a death cult

 

[barreness]

With 170 new nuclear reactors coming online, mainly across Asia, we should be thankful that Asian leaders aren't massive pussies when it comes to clean base load energy.

The five countries to record the fastest decarbonisation did so by bringing nuclear power online. France committing to nuclear energy compared to Germany relies on biomass - which is the biggest lol in renewables.

Source?

Seems pretty flat from any data I've seen. They do take decades to build so I guess coming online is a vague term, there's only 400 odd functional plants in the world currently.

 

[mcnulty]

There's very little evidence of violent deaths in hunter gatherers

You just made that up.

New study reveals a long history of violence in ancient hunter-gatherer societies

Tulane University News and Press Releases

news.tulane.edu

Of course they killed each other. They were human.

 

[Episode IV]

Fair amount of cultural imagining going on around here.

There's another reason for you, Carringbush2010 - Most of our s**t is on record. It can be studied, analysed within the context of modern morality and social norms, and vilified where placed in comparison with those cultures whose historical record is not quite so complete, often resulting in the aforementioned cultural imagining.

In terms of the demographics of Western nations, indigenous Europeans are (just) in the majority.
In global terms, they're very much a minority.

 

[Episode IV]

No they don't.

There were some important points raised in the later stages of that video.
Perceived and accidental defections being among them (very important when looking at historical and cultural global difference), and where a strategy acting alone or as a minority acting against "nasty" strategies in concert do not necessarily do so well.

It also mentions the lack of evolution, but does not really expand upon that aspect much (unless I missed it).
A couple of the strategies mentioned change pattern as a result of interaction, but what happens when the entire strategy is abandoned in favour of another for as a result of internal development?

Perception is the pivot.

 

[Episode IV]

Of course they killed each other. They were human.

Violence has a lot to do with population pressure leading to competition for resources, particularly in more densely populated areas.

Where there are more dead people found archeologically preserved, more of them are going to be found to have died by violent means.

When speaking of "archeologically preserved", environmental factors also contribute to the archeological record.

When considering the causes of violence among humanity, cultural factors only account for a part of the picture, and often can't be verified at all, but only hypothesized - particularly among those with an agenda.

 

[mcnulty]

Violence has a lot to do with population pressure leading to competition for resources, particularly in more densely populated areas.

Where there are more dead people found archeologically preserved, more of them are going to be found to have died by violent means.

When speaking of "archeologically preserved", environmental factors also contribute to the archeological record.

When considering the causes of violence among humanity, cultural factors only account for a part of the picture, and often can't be verified at all, but only hypothesized - particularly among those with an agenda.

You‘re overthinking it. People have been killing each other forever. Over incredibly petty s**t. I’d imagine population pressure has less to do with it than whether the perpetrator thought they would get away with. Consequence essentially. Human nature.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Aborigines killed each other in frequent skirmishes, often over women. Or being in another clan's territory and taking their food. Or revenge because someone in the tribe got sick and died and it was seen as sorcery. Read The Life and Adventures of William Buckley, he documents events that occurred during his 25+ years living with them in the early 1800s. Revenge ie payback is still practised. There was/is a push for Aboriginal law to be, well, lawful.

I might add the book was illuminating on many aspects, not all negative at all.

 

[Captivating]

Aborigines killed each other in frequent skirmishes, often over women. Or being in another clan's territory and taking their food. Or revenge because someone in the tribe got sick and died and it was seen as sorcery. Read The Life and History of William Buckley, he documents events that occurred during his 25+ years living with them in the early 1800s. Revenge ie payback is still practised. There was/is a push for Aboriginal law to be, well, lawful.

I might add the book was illuminating on many aspects, not all negative at all.

A link to the book.

The Life and Adventures of William Buckley

 

[South of the Yarra]

Aborigines killed each other in frequent skirmishes, often over women. Or being in another clan's territory and taking their food. Or revenge because someone in the tribe got sick and died and it was seen as sorcery. Read The Life and Adventures of William Buckley, he documents events that occurred during his 25+ years living with them in the early 1800s. Revenge ie payback is still practised. There was/is a push for Aboriginal law to be, well, lawful.

I might add the book was illuminating on many aspects, not all negative at all.

Aboriginals not Aborigines. You are focussing on one clan / mob. There was significant variance from one mob to another.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Aboriginals not Aborigines. You are focussing on one clan / mob. There was significant variance from one mob to another.

He lived with several groups. Sorry, I usually say Aboriginals.

 

[South of the Yarra]

He lived with several groups. Sorry, I usually say Aboriginals.

No probs, He didn't live with several groups across the country. He mainly lived with Wathaurung People. It was Aboriginal spiritual beliefs that kept him alive.

 

[ferball]

There were some important points raised in the later stages of that video.
Perceived and accidental defections being among them (very important when looking at historical and cultural global difference), and where a strategy acting alone or as a minority acting against "nasty" strategies in concert do not necessarily do so well.

Are you sure? I thought they found "nice" minority groups seem to eventually thrive in all situations.

It also mentions the lack of evolution, but does not really expand upon that aspect much (unless I missed it).

Its limited. There were studies done with software based evolution among robots programmed to find and hoard resources and eventually some developed altruistic strategies and they began to thrive and dominate. The study/studies I'm thinking of were done 15 years ago, approximately, in Sweden maybe?

A couple of the strategies mentioned change pattern as a result of interaction, but what happens when the entire strategy is abandoned in favour of another for as a result of internal development?

Perception is the pivot.

I dunno. The people responsible are still around and appeared in that video so you could probably contact them and ask. Its amazing how often people like that respond positively if you track them down and show an interest in their work, whatever you do in your life.

 

[barreness]

You just made that up.

New study reveals a long history of violence in ancient hunter-gatherer societies

Tulane University News and Press Releases

news.tulane.edu

Of course they killed each other. They were human.

Did you go to Tulane University? Interesting source and no actual study linked
*scrap that, was a study linked

"They found that rates of violence were surprisingly static over time. However, a notable increase in lethal violence during the Formative Period started around 1000 BC, a trend also found in similar studies of the Andean region."

"It’s also possible that violence resulted from competition for resources in the extreme environment of the desert, a factor which might have become exacerbated as farming became more prominent and widespread."

Yeh cool, so agrarian societies become more violent

 

[Blue1980]

Climate change is being solved with renewables and batteries and green hydrogen. How can you say nothing is being done about climate change? Are you not aware of these technologies that are currently being installed and adopted?

that quest for infinite growth you complain about has dramatically lowered poverty rates globally, dramatically increased life expectancy, dramatically reduced the time people spend doing household chores and no doubt been a major driver of dramatic falls in violence rates and dramatic increases in female and minority rights. But hey, lets unwind all of that cos......

Is that capitalism or just greater efficiencies due to technological advancements?

Capitalism is better than the feudal system, sure, but we can’t keep growing infinitely until the end of time.

Greater regulations need to be in place in general for the distribution of wealth to not be as skewed as it is now. In Australia our systems have held quite well though we will have issues but in general from the 80s onwards neo liberalism has seen wealth just get more concentrated at the top.

 

[mcnulty]

Did you go to Tulane University?

Er, no it took about a millisecond of a Google search. Practises like human sacrifice and headhunting predate agrarian civilisation. Homicide is believed to have been relatively common. Of course these things vary between tribes. One of the last remaining hunter gatherer societies, the Sentinelese occupy an island where travel is prohibited, in part because they kill those who try and make contact.

Sure, there may be LESS evidence, but there’s less evidence of everything. Obviously.