Society/Culture The seemingly growing anti 'western' sentiment in 'western' societies.

[ferball]

I recommend you read The Life and History of William Buckley, written by a convict who escaped and lived with tribes for over 25 years in the first half of the 1800s.

I know who Buckley is and I know of (and sometimes use) a variety of bush medicines, especially as preventatives for colds, flu and other random viruses.

 

[ferball]

D_R_U - bush medicines are still described in spiritual terms. All plants and animals have a spiritual or religious dimension that sits alongside their physical properties and can't be separated from them.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

D_R_U - bush medicines are still described in spiritual terms. All plants and animals have a spiritual or religious dimension that sits alongside their physical properties and can't be separated from them.

It's superstition though, isn't it? As much value as others put on Christian or Muslim prayer. Belief in something doesn't confirm its efficacy. People swear by ivermectin, or vitamin C, or any amount of herbal remedies but they don't beat antibiotics or vaccines.

There were reports of indigenous communities rejecting the covid vaccine because it was "white man's medicine". I hope not too many of them lost their lives depending on wild plants.

 

[ferball]

It's superstition though, isn't it? As much value as others put on Christian or Muslim prayer. Belief in something doesn't confirm its efficacy. People swear by ivermectin, or vitamin C, or any amount of herbal remedies but they don't beat antibiotics or vaccines.

There were reports of indigenous communities rejecting the covid vaccine because it was "white man's medicine". I hope not too many of them lost their lives depending on wild plants.

The covid vaccine did * all for me. I still got it and was sick for a fortnight. Second time I had it I was over it in days. That's how natural immunity works. (I studied immunology at uni and only dropped out cos I was working nights and was too tired to do pracs safely working with dodgy viruses. Always planned to go back but it nevcer worked out.)

Superstition is just another model of reality. Even science is just a model.

Working with cultural burners I cam across this thing called magic rain. Its just fog in a forest really, but it causes high levels of condensation on plants and they drip watering the ground around them. The people I worked with had stories about spirits causing it but when pressed they basically described the formation of fog on cloud condensation nuclei that were too small to hold enough water to cause proper rainfall.

So its not really superstition, they're using terms you might call superstitious language to describe natural processes and their use of that language doesn't really describe any interventions by magical creatures etc. They're not invoking any extra entities with magic powers, just describing the same process using different language.

 

[Captivating]

The covid vaccine did * all for me. I still got it and was sick for a fortnight. Second time I had it I was over it in days. That's how natural immunity works. (I studied immunology at uni and only dropped out cos I was working nights and was too tired to do pracs safely working with dodgy viruses. Always planned to go back but it nevcer worked out.)

Superstition is just another model of reality. Even science is just a model.

Working with cultural burners I cam across this thing called magic rain. Its just fog in a forest really, but it causes high levels of condensation on plants and they drip watering the ground around them. The people I worked with had stories about spirits causing it but when pressed they basically described the formation of fog on cloud condensation nuclei that were too small to hold enough water to cause proper rainfall.

So its not really superstition, they're using terms you might call superstitious language to describe natural processes and their use of that language doesn't really describe any interventions by magical creatures etc. They're not invoking any extra entities with magic powers, just describing the same process using different language.

Science isn't just a model, it IS reality.

Wipe out all human knowledge and start again fresh (burn all the science books, bibles and superstitous stories. In time, all of the science knowledge we lost, we would regain. The same can't be said of religion and superstition.

 

[ferball]

Science isn't just a model, it IS reality.

Wipe out all human knowledge and start again fresh (burn all the science books, bibles and superstitous stories. In time, all of the science knowledge we lost, we would regain. The same can't be said of religion and superstition.

No - reality is reality and scientific method gives us falsifiable models of it. In fact science actually shows us that an accurate picture of all of reality is impossible. You can blame Walter White for that.

Don't get religious about science.

 

[Gethelred]

No - reality is reality and scientific method gives us falsifiable models of it. In fact science actually shows us that an accurate picture of all of reality is impossible. You can blame Walter White for that.

Don't get religious about science.

"I hold my theories on the tips of my fingers, so that the merest breath of fact will blow them away".

- Michael Faraday, supposedly.

 

[ferball]

"I hold my theories on the tips of my fingers, so that the merest breath of fact will blow them away".

- Michael Faraday, supposedly.

Exactly. The reason science is so effective at describing the world is because its got inbuilt structure that enable its current decriptions to be superceded by more accurate ones.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

The covid vaccine did * all for me. I still got it and was sick for a fortnight. Second time I had it I was over it in days. That's how natural immunity works. (I studied immunology at uni and only dropped out cos I was working nights and was too tired to do pracs safely working with dodgy viruses. Always planned to go back but it nevcer worked out.)

Superstition is just another model of reality. Even science is just a model.

Working with cultural burners I cam across this thing called magic rain. Its just fog in a forest really, but it causes high levels of condensation on plants and they drip watering the ground around them. The people I worked with had stories about spirits causing it but when pressed they basically described the formation of fog on cloud condensation nuclei that were too small to hold enough water to cause proper rainfall.

So its not really superstition, they're using terms you might call superstitious language to describe natural processes and their use of that language doesn't really describe any interventions by magical creatures etc. They're not invoking any extra entities with magic powers, just describing the same process using different language.

Certainly there are connections that can be made by anyone given a long period of observation, indigenous people are not unique in that way.

Spiritual connections with animals and other natural features are probably useful in a society that has no written language and must pass information to offspring in a simple way. They believed in sorcery to explain disease and sudden death or affliction because they had no way of knowing how the human body works. Perhaps some plants had an efficacious effect, or perhaps recovery would have occurred anyway.

I agree with you about the vax, but at the time it was thought to protect people. It’s not the only “white fella” health initiative to be rejected.

I just heard today, in Parliament, that closing-the-gap targets are going backwards, instead of improving. What on earth is to be done?

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

No - reality is reality and scientific method gives us falsifiable models of it. In fact science actually shows us that an accurate picture of all of reality is impossible. You can blame Walter White for that.

Don't get religious about science.

So next time a CHO tells me to “trust the science” I’m right to be sceptical?

 

[owen87]

I agree with you about the vax, but at the time it was thought to protect people

So next time a CHO tells me to “trust the science” I’m right to be sceptical?

How about we don't.

 

[ferball]

So next time a CHO tells me to “trust the science” I’m right to be sceptical?

You should always be sceptical and never trust the science until you've sussed it out for yourself.

 

[Captivating]

Exactly. The reason science is so effective at describing the world is because its got inbuilt structure that enable its current decriptions to be superceded by more accurate ones.

Science is science because repeatable experiments lead to the same conclusion. When you mix one molecule of sodium to one of chloride, you always get table salt. Mathematics is the same.

As for COVID, the lack of trust in science was because the same experiment was not leading to the same conclusion despite the cleating about State Government Politicians.

 

[ferball]

Certainly there are connections that can be made by anyone given a long period of observation, indigenous people are not unique in that way.

Spiritual connections with animals and other natural features are probably useful in a society that has no written language and must pass information to offspring in a simple way. They believed in sorcery to explain disease and sudden death or affliction because they had no way of knowing how the human body works. Perhaps some plants had an efficacious effect, or perhaps recovery would have occurred anyway.

I agree with you about the vax, but at the time it was thought to protect people. It’s not the only “white fella” health initiative to be rejected.

I just heard today, in Parliament, that closing-the-gap targets are going backwards, instead of improving. What on earth is to be done?

What are the specifics? My understanding is that the targets going backwards are associated with suicide and incarceration and that seems to be associated with governments ignoring the recommendations of all sorts of people and groups with associated data (including their own recommendations to government years earlier - ie Micheal Gunner.) While other education and health targets are being met.

 

[ferball]

Science is science because repeatable experiments lead to the same conclusion. When you mix one molecule of sodium to one of chloride, you always get table salt. Mathematics is the same.

As for COVID, the lack of trust in science was because the same experiment was not leading to the same conclusion despite the cleating about State Government Politicians.

I dunno about that. I thinks its a much more complex thing.

 

[barreness]

The point is, even without invasion, Hawaii's native population dropped by 90% due to disease. The same would have happened to indigenous Australians even without one person being murdered.

Perhaps, but doing alt history to justify known crimes is cringe

 

[Captivating]

Perhaps, but doing alt history to justify known crimes is cringe

the only cringe is that you fail to realise that the thread was about alt scenarios.

 

[ferball]

 

[barreness]

the only cringe is that you fail to realise that the thread was about alt scenarios.

Indigenous life expectancy increased 30 years, they should be happy

That's not quite how those stats work

Well it could have been worse

It was bad

It would have happened anyway

It didn't have to

tHiS iS aBoUt aLt sCenaRiOs

 

[Gough]

I don't believe in the Dreamtime either but at least Indigenous Australians don't use their beliefs as a basis to deny others.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

I don't believe in the Dreamtime either but at least Indigenous Australians don't use their beliefs as a basis to deny others.

Except… towards Santos and Woodside… and farmers who want to build fences or bridges.

A neighbour's complaint about Tony's new driveway could cost him prison time and huge fine

A Toodyay landholder has been threatened with nine months' jail and a $20,000 fine for building a creek crossing in an alleged breach of the state's Aboriginal Heritage Act.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Blue1980]

Western culture is defined by people who think they know better than previous generations and think they can fix the world, but only end up stuffing things up a little more. Eastern culture are more likely to learn from the lessons of past generations, until they to, become Westernised and again, think they know better.

You actually believe every single generation is worse than the one before it? The difference with the west has been rampant capitalism and striving for infinite growth since the Industrial Revolution.

We need collective action and working together for a greater good. This is anathema to the capitalist west who will equate this with Soviet Union and gulags.

In basic terms we are ****ed with our current attitude worldwide. Nothing will be done about climate change until it’s literally made many places uninhabitable.

 

[Captivating]

You actually believe every single generation is worse than the one before it? The difference with the west has been rampant capitalism and striving for infinite growth since the Industrial Revolution.

We need collective action and working together for a greater good. This is anathema to the capitalist west who will equate this with Soviet Union and gulags.

In basic terms we are ****ed with our current attitude worldwide. Nothing will be done about climate change until it’s literally made many places uninhabitable.

With 170 new nuclear reactors coming online, mainly across Asia, we should be thankful that Asian leaders aren't massive pussies when it comes to clean base load energy.

The five countries to record the fastest decarbonisation did so by bringing nuclear power online. France committing to nuclear energy compared to Germany relies on biomass - which is the biggest lol in renewables.

 

[Gethelred]

You actually believe every single generation is worse than the one before it?

Captivating's hardly the first to think so. Schopenhauer was big on the concept of slow degradation; every generation of Tolkien's world saw the world become weaker, more shallow, more corrupt; humans have steadily gotten further and further from the Christian god since the Original sin.

It's pretty shitty, but there's always been a field of thought that life only gets worse.

 

[ferball]

Captivating's hardly the first to think so. Schopenhauer was big on the concept of slow degradation; every generation of Tolkien's world saw the world become weaker, more shallow, more corrupt; humans have steadily gotten further and further from the Christian god since the Original sin.

It's pretty shitty, but there's always been a field of thought that life only gets worse.

There's a 2000 game called Deus Ex and it involves a bit of stealth. If you sneak up on some of the NPCs (specifically MiBs in that game) and sit behind them while they're sitting at desks or workstations you'll eventually hear one of them say "Its cold and dark and it goes on forever" in a grim broken voice under their breathe.

Creepy as * and the fate of the universe according to some cosmological models.