Review Soft Selection Committee

[Proud SJW]

Keep telling yourself that.

Whiny little bitch? We're losing every game and how promising are our youngsters? We don't have a Cripps, Bontempelli, Hogan, Bruce...

But we do have a Fyfe, Walters, Neale and A Pearce... and we didn't get them with top draft picks. They're even all playing for the same team, which is more than could be said for yours.

If Ross Lyon and this team wins a flag I'll be staggered. If they win three, or four in less than a decade, wow.

Like I said... word for word. I tempted to actually go back and find those posts, you know.

I have to ask. Did you do the same thing I did, and copy a few posts from the Hawthorn supporters in 2006-2007 or so? Because you sound almost identical. If I were a more suspicious man, I'd be comparing posts looking for evidence of plagiarism.

You're just happy with mediocrity.

Puerile, very old and worn out accusation. Put some bloody effort in, you're not proving to be too much of a challenge.
Unless, of course, you are in fact the one content with mediocrity. Even if it's your own.

I swear some people on this board are actually nuffies

On this, I completely agree. Some people on this board are actually nuffies.

 

[Righteo]

salim malik and Silent Alarm earning days off for continuing to go on with their personal war despite my warning. Enough playing the man already.

Gents, I strongly suggest you put each other on ignore as it seems neither of you can quote the other without it rapidly degenerating into a schoolyard scuffle.

Cheers

 

[Mudd]

Yeah, well. Like I said a few days ago, I did myself the service of going back to 2004-5 on the Hawthorn boards and reading forward year by year. And guess what? They had their Silent Alarms too. Every single decision the club made attracted similar sorts of crap to yours above. Absolute refusal to see anything positive about the club.

It's like looking at our boards this year, 2007 especially. Why oh why isn't Hodge the Captain, doubts about the gameplan, Clarkos' box has been worked out and ohmygod we're so bloody defensive it's embarrassing, Pagan's said he's available so we should be throwing $ at him instead of this new coach who has been here three years and still hasn't got us a premiership, sure sign him up for another year if we can't get Pagan, but why 3 years ffs, why can't we be a more attacking team, our drafting team is such crap, we've had all these early draft picks but we're still shit, why aren't we playing the kids instead of the same old players,why the fk isn't Beau Muston getting a game, he's an out and out champion killing it in the twos but we're still playing players like <Croad, Crawford, Chance Bateman> , etc etc...

Some of the comments on continuing to play Bateman, Croad and Crawford in '06 through '08 (in particular) ahead of Muston and Xavier Ellis (in particular) are pretty much word for word identical to yours.
Which may or may not be an exaggeration.

By comparison, there were Hawthorn posters admiring Clarkson for pulling Hawthorn out of the doldrums and making them competitive again, loving a change in club culture, casting a few doubts over the game plan ("I know we're winning games again but does anyone really believe we'll win a premiership with a defensive game plan against the likes of Geelong?" - "I love Clarko for what he's done but it might be time now to move him on and get someone in who'll take us to the next level")

And then there were the "Clarko is God. Our players are the bestest and our youth has more potential than anyone's in the league." Sort of posters as well. As fate would have it, they turned out to be more or less correct. Fate is a fickle bitch, though.

And yes, I can post the threads if you like, because I saved all the links - well, not all of them (because there were a hell of a lot) but a few of the more pertinent ones. Not even sure why I did, I was half considering writing a full comparison at some point (some of it is eerily familiar) but would probably be more effort than it's worth. Was more just out of my own interest.

Now of course, it's the "team Clarkson built" (even though Hodge, Mitchell, Sewell, Lewis, Roughhead, Franklin etc were all drafted before he became the coach), even though in the two years before he became coach they had draft picks we haven't seen for the last ten years and no GC/GWS to contend with, now he's now the best coach evers in all the worlds and now it's all "oh, Hawthorn have nailed the draft/trading strategy completely". Even though they've had as many draft busts as we've had.
even post - '08, there were more than a few "why don't we draft any decent fkng KPP's" threads.

All on the back of what is widely considered a "premature" premiership in '08 which heralded a "winning culture"... which had a fair hand in attracting some very advantageous trades.


You know, if you've got doubts, by all means express them. Go ahead - we all do, at one point or another. But consistently calling everything Freo crap and the constant moaning and bitching is about as useful as a condom vending machine in the Vatican.
You're not new. You're not original. You're not honest, you're not one of a kind.
You're just a whiny bitch.

I like the effort that you have gone to for this research about the greatest team of all time.

It'd be fantastic to contrast it to a team that hasn't gone so well. When you have some more time you should go back to the Melbourne forums around 2010 during one of their most recent rebuilds, I wonder if they would have had the exact same threads about getting rid of their coach and questioning the game plan? I've got a feeling their coach was sacked not long after 2010 also.

 

[The Joker]

Yeah, well. Like I said a few days ago, I did myself the service of going back to 2004-5 on the Hawthorn boards and reading forward year by year. And guess what? They had their Silent Alarms too. Every single decision the club made attracted similar sorts of crap to yours above. Absolute refusal to see anything positive about the club.

It's like looking at our boards this year, 2007 especially. Why oh why isn't Hodge the Captain, doubts about the gameplan, Clarkos' box has been worked out and ohmygod we're so bloody defensive it's embarrassing, Pagan's said he's available so we should be throwing $ at him instead of this new coach who has been here three years and still hasn't got us a premiership, sure sign him up for another year if we can't get Pagan, but why 3 years ffs, why can't we be a more attacking team, our drafting team is such crap, we've had all these early draft picks but we're still shit, why aren't we playing the kids instead of the same old players,why the fk isn't Beau Muston getting a game, he's an out and out champion killing it in the twos but we're still playing players like <Croad, Crawford, Chance Bateman> , etc etc...

Some of the comments on continuing to play Bateman, Croad and Crawford in '06 through '08 (in particular) ahead of Muston and Xavier Ellis (in particular) are pretty much word for word identical to yours.
Which may or may not be an exaggeration.

By comparison, there were Hawthorn posters admiring Clarkson for pulling Hawthorn out of the doldrums and making them competitive again, loving a change in club culture, casting a few doubts over the game plan ("I know we're winning games again but does anyone really believe we'll win a premiership with a defensive game plan against the likes of Geelong?" - "I love Clarko for what he's done but it might be time now to move him on and get someone in who'll take us to the next level")

And then there were the "Clarko is God. Our players are the bestest and our youth has more potential than anyone's in the league." Sort of posters as well. As fate would have it, they turned out to be more or less correct. Fate is a fickle bitch, though.

And yes, I can post the threads if you like, because I saved all the links - well, not all of them (because there were a hell of a lot) but a few of the more pertinent ones. Not even sure why I did, I was half considering writing a full comparison at some point (some of it is eerily familiar) but would probably be more effort than it's worth. Was more just out of my own interest.

Now of course, it's the "team Clarkson built" (even though Hodge, Mitchell, Sewell, Lewis, Roughhead, Franklin etc were all drafted before he became the coach), even though in the two years before he became coach they had draft picks we haven't seen for the last ten years and no GC/GWS to contend with, now he's now the best coach evers in all the worlds and now it's all "oh, Hawthorn have nailed the draft/trading strategy completely". Even though they've had as many draft busts as we've had.
even post - '08, there were more than a few "why don't we draft any decent fkng KPP's" threads.

All on the back of what is widely considered a "premature" premiership in '08 which heralded a "winning culture"... which had a fair hand in attracting some very advantageous trades.


You know, if you've got doubts, by all means express them. Go ahead - we all do, at one point or another. But consistently calling everything Freo crap and the constant moaning and bitching is about as useful as a condom vending machine in the Vatican.
You're not new. You're not original. You're not honest, you're not one of a kind.
You're just a whiny bitch.

Your first mistake was comparing Freo 2016 to Hawthorn 2004, from there you were pushing shit up hill. I mean you are comparing Hawk fans asking why Crawford, Croad and Bateman get games to Freo fans saying the same thing about Suban, DPearce and Mzungu, **** me...

 

[mike91]

I definitely would have waited till after 3 pm today before posting my "I can't believe they bought Suban back" thread.

Noted for the person who makes that thread, just in case you didn't pick up on what this thread is actually about, it's about 2016 as a whole and Ross Lyons coaching this season, not purely Round 21.

 

[mike91]

Weller 19
Blakely 12
Langdon 10
Tucker 9
Hughes 4

Suban 15
Ibbotson 13
Mzungu 5
Pearce C 4

Nah i'm fine with the overall job this year thanks. Agree they should have started down the path earlier but yeah, no issues. And, hell, i'm even someone who genuinely thinks Clancee has more to add to our team in future.

Move this shit to the melt thread anyway. Suban and Sutcliffe both emergencies; Weller, Tucker, Langdon, Blakely and Hughes in the named 22.

Nah, I said this week was an example, this thread is based on the whole of 2016, interesting how people still can't process that. Are you honestly satisfied with Lyons coaching this season? The lack of game plan hasn't had you scratching your head? I share a somewhat similar opinion on Clancee, think he actually deserved a few more games and his kicking out of the back line could be handy next year if he stays.

 

[Stronzo]

"Hawthorn supporters said this and that back in 2007"

That has to be some of the most illogical and irrelevant reasoning I've seen in recent times on this board.

The number of examples of supporters of failed coaches and the rose coloured shit they said would crush this pointless example - but it's just such a flawed line of thinking and is totally irrelevant to what is actually being talked about here.

 

[Proud SJW]

I like the effort that you have gone to for this research about the greatest team of all time.

Not in 2004 they weren't. They were on the bottom, had been for years, and were struggling with a losing team culture and a new coach. It took them four years to get back from it (after Clarkson's appointment). And a pile of top draft picks.

It'd be fantastic to contrast it to a team that hasn't gone so well. When you have some more time you should go back to the Melbourne forums around 2010 during one of their most recent rebuilds, I wonder if they would have had the exact same threads about getting rid of their coach and questioning the game plan? I've got a feeling their coach was sacked not long after 2010 also.

I already have compared it to a team not doing so well. Fremantle.

 

[Proud SJW]

The number of examples of supporters of failed coaches and the rose coloured shit they said would crush this pointless example

Right. You think I was comparing coaches.
Back to school, fella.

If you're going to say it was irrelevent and illogical, then the first thing you should do is figure out what is was actually about. Plenty of others have.
Then when you've done that, actually explain why you think that. It sort of helps to be able to back up an opinion with facts and argument, you know.

 

[Proud SJW]

Your first mistake was comparing Freo 2016 to Hawthorn 2004, from there you were pushing shit up hill. I mean you are comparing Hawk fans asking why Crawford, Croad and Bateman get games to Freo fans saying the same thing about Suban, DPearce and Mzungu, **** me...

No, I was concentrating more on Hawthorn 2007/08 with 2004 - 2006 as a background or frame of reference, with Fremantle 2012-2013 as a reference.

I never made any direct comparisons between players, it's more about the supporters and the history.
I've been looking into differences after respective grand finals appearances as well, but I haven't talked much about that.

Hawthorn are actually a good comparison for Fremantle, as much as you don't want to admit it.
In which ways do you think Hawthorn's situation circa 2005-2008 was overly different from ours prior to 2013?

What have the differences been between the two teams resulting from grand finals they weren't expected to win - Hawthorn winning theirs in 2008, Fremantle losing theirs in 2013? That's where the real comparative tangent begins.

I mean go ahead man, if you've got something then by all means lay it on me.

 

[Mudd]

Not in 2004 they weren't. They were on the bottom, had been for years, and were struggling with a losing team culture and a new coach.

Not exactly true, from 2000-2004 they had made finals twice and were basically a mid table team.

 

[Proud SJW]

Not exactly true, from 2000-2004 they had made finals twice and were basically a mid table team.

They made finals twice, yes, in 2000 and 2001. After that, finishing positions were 10,9,15,14 and 11. So yeah, not exactly bottom of the table, but not far from it a couple of times, in a 16 team comp at the time).
By comparison, Fremantle had made finals in 2006 (and 2010), but otherwise some very ordinary finishes otherwise until Lyon took over in 2012.

 

[TheMcManusNose]

Nah, I said this week was an example, this thread is based on the whole of 2016, interesting how people still can't process that. Are you honestly satisfied with Lyons coaching this season? The lack of game plan hasn't had you scratching your head? I share a somewhat similar opinion on Clancee, think he actually deserved a few more games and his kicking out of the back line could be handy next year if he stays.

Well I think if we base it on the whole of 2016, rather than an example week, then those numbers become more relevant to me. So perhaps less of a concern even.

As for the coaching, as distinct from the team selection, i'm a bit so so on it. But I think there have been glimpses at times of a fast running game. The only thing I can really identify as a serious issue in that respect is we just seem to push up way too far. But team selection, nah it's fine. I'd even go so far as to say that we've kept Weller in the team after games where he clearly didn't deserve a spot - and i'll give the selection committee credit for keeping him in in light of that. As i've said previously, there's a balance to be struck there between playing the yoof and rewarding actual, concrete, perfomances.

 

[The Joker]

No, I was concentrating more on Hawthorn 2007/08 with 2004 - 2006 as a background or frame of reference, with Fremantle 2012-2013 as a reference.

You are all over the place in you comparisons, thanks for clearing that up though!

I never made any direct comparisons between players, it's more about the supporters and the history.

Surely someone as astute as yourself can see that is my point. Its would take a seriously daft person to compare the players!

I've been looking into differences after respective grand finals appearances as well, but I haven't talked much about that.

Well i can only go with what is written...

Hawthorn are actually a good comparison for Fremantle, as much as you don't want to admit it.
In which ways do you think Hawthorn's situation circa 2005-2008 was overly different from ours prior to 2013?

Here is the big one, winning a GF is different to losing one.

But I guess every team that has won 1 premiership or come really close and then inevitably fell away would be a good comparison.

I wonder, why then did you choose Hawthorn?

What have the differences been between the two teams resulting from grand finals they weren't expected to win - Hawthorn winning theirs in 2008, Fremantle losing theirs in 2013? That's where the real comparative tangent begins.

Are you serious?

2009 Hawks 9th - 2014 Freo 4th
2010 Hawks 7th - 2015 Freo 1st
2011 Hawks 3rd - 2016 Freo 16th

I mean go ahead man, if you've got something then by all means lay it on me.

I should have left it at my first reply!

 

[Proud SJW]

You are all over the place in you comparisons, thanks for clearing that up though!

Well, no, I don't think so, but it's fairly clear you are.

Surely someone as astute as yourself can see that is my point. Its would take a seriously daft person to compare the players!

Ok, so why are you addressing me? Because I didn't make any such comparisons. You want to start comparing players, go somewhere else. I haven't done any such thing.

Well i can only go with what is written...

But, as per above, you're not.

Here is the big one, winning a GF is different to losing one.

Should I quote myself again?
"What have the differences been between the two teams resulting from grand finals they weren't expected to win - Hawthorn winning theirs in 2008, Fremantle losing theirs in 2013? That's where the real comparative tangent begins."
I mean shit, mate, all you gotta do is read.

But I guess every team that has won 1 premiership or come really close and then inevitably fell away would be a good comparison.
I wonder, why then did you choose Hawthorn?

Is there a better benchmark?
Could have gone with Geelong, but game styles are completely different. Could have gone with St Kilda, but the problem there should be fairly obvious.
So why wouldn't I go with the GOAT?

Other than the thought that, as I've covered many times now, the similarities are closer than most other teams.

Are you serious?

2009 Hawks 9th - 2014 Freo 4th
2010 Hawks 7th - 2015 Freo 1st
2011 Hawks 3rd - 2016 Freo 16th

Yes, quite serious. Hawks situation from the time Clarkson took over to their first premiership was very similar in many ways to ours when Lyon took over in 2012. Supporter opinions virtually mirror ours. You can read all of this yourself, you know.

I don't remember talking much about Hawthorn 2009 - 2011 at all, so I don't really know what you're trying to prove there.

I should have left it at my first reply!

Probably shouldn't even bothered with that one, until you knew what you were discussing.

 

[The Joker]

Hawthorn winning theirs in 2008, Fremantle losing theirs in 2013? That's where the real comparative tangent begins."

Bla bla bla...

And then this...

I don't remember talking much about Hawthorn 2009 - 2011 at all, so I don't really know what you're trying to prove there.

So what you are saying is, unless it suits your argument then you werent talking about it...

Probably shouldn't even bothered with that one, until you knew what you were discussing.

He said what?

 

[Proud SJW]

Bla bla bla...

So... I didn't say "that's where the real tangent begins"? Is that what you're trying to say? It's right there, a few posts up.
Sticking your fingers in your ears doesn't make you any less wrong. Actually, it makes you look like a bit of a child.

And then this...

Go quote where I was talking about Hawthorn post 2008, other than to say that's where the similarities end, as per my quote.
G'head. Do it.

So what you are saying is, unless it suits your argument then you werent talking about it...

No, I'm saying I wasn't talking about it.
Go do some homework and show me where I did.

He said what?

I said "Probably shouldn't even bothered with that one, until you knew what you were discussing."
Is there anything else you need repeated?

 

[jedi mind tricks]

When's the last time we had picks good enough to get a Cripps, Bonts, Hogan etc?

Yep would help if we had a top 5 pick

 

[mike91]

Lets face it, our selection committee is a joke, plain and simple, in fact that's almost a compliment. Our changes for the upcoming match isn't even surprising, we've brought back Suban after 20 odd touches at WAFL level in a match that Peel won easily, hardly impressive and Sutcliffe after playing no form of football whatsoever last week. Morabito fills a need off half back, especially with Ibbo and Croz out, yet isn't even named in the squad. I'd rather see Nyhauis named in the squad, even if he doesn't make the cut, just name him and give him that boost of confidence. Last week we dropped Taberner in Apeness's first game of the year, those two are our future forwards as of right now and we dropped Taberner........I mean seriously

Blakely got dropped a few weeks ago, in a way we can agree with it because he needs to learn the defensive side of his game, but I would of thought Weller could of been dropped many, many times this year. Weller is good, no doubt about it, but the double standards is real. Langdon has been dropped a few times this year too, but I'd argue for impact on games, Langdon could almost be on par with Weller whilst playing less games, but Ross continued to drop him. We STILL haven't had the balls to drop D. Pearce or Mayne.

Almost every week we're left face palming and we're never surprised to see players like Suban, Clarke and Sutcliffe going back into the squad almost immediately.

I truly believe Ross Lyon is a great coach, but to me he has easily been the worse coach of 2016. Some will say we've tanked, but for a lot of matches I actually highly doubt we have. Mediocre player performances have been seen as acceptable this year, no tough selection changes and hasn't gotten the vast majority of the team playing anything close to good football. We drafted Tucker as a flanker, yet play him as a middle, we should be trying to turn him into the next Heath Shaw, feed him the ball off half back and play Sheridan on a wing, where he belongs, bloke is anything but a defender. How about the fact nothing has changed about our failing forward structure, wouldn't of thought telling the players to lower their eyes or they'll be punished is that hard, yet all we do is bomb it long like we're copying the Aus Kickers at half time.

Ross will be better next year with the injured players at his disposal, but hes coaching performance this year has been poor and a lot needs to change during the off season/pre season, especially our game plan and forward structure, or dare I say lack of.

Bump (purely for the selection committee and if to see if people think it will improve this year)

The selection of Sheridan into the squad without even playing in the WAFL last week surely sends the wrong message. Suban played round one after a very average WAFL performance.

 

[Silent Alarm]

Bump (purely for the selection committee and if to see if people think it will improve this year)

The selection of Sheridan into the squad without even playing in the WAFL last week surely sends the wrong message. Suban played round one after a very average WAFL performance.

If it was Harley Bennell who just needs to get out there ASAP, Fyfe, or another genuinely good player then yes it makes sense – most players would accept there is a hierarchy where a few select players can circumvent it. But Sheridan has not improved in five-odd seasons. Do not see what they see in him.

 

[FreoMonocle]

The premise of the OP is flawed.

The selection committee are putting together a team, not selecting the 22 best individuals. Unless we know what the objectives are in selecting Suban (or any other "escaped goat"), we have no idea of if they are failing the objectives - but the doig is enlightening.

2015, Fyfe wins the Brownlow - by definition the best and fairest in the league, also got the players award (best player in the club according to Freo players). But only comes 4th in the Doig, behind Sandi, Mundy and SHill. The difference being, who was the best (eligible) player in the league vs who is filling the most objectives set for the player each game as judged by the coaches. It doesn't matter that he missed out on votes due to injury, in getting the Brownlow you'd expect that he would have received the maximum 5 votes so many times that it would put it beyond contention - and didn't.

 

[meima]

Sad to said this freo just replace previous 3km winner gu. and runner up deboer with
Sutty ( 2)
Sherriden (3)

 

[UFO Tatsu]

Sad to said this freo just replace previous 3km winner gu. and runner up deboer with
Sutty ( 2)
Sherriden (3)

Not replace. All four were in the 22 couple of years ago.

 

[Proud SJW]

Heh. I was on holidays when that thread was active, drunk as a monkey for most of it. And I just got a "like" for something I wrote in August last year
Still stand by most of that Hawthorn comparison, even if it did get a bit Saturday-arvo-down-the-pub-after-10 beers towards the end there. Which is almost literally true.


But as far as the selection committee goes, in terms of being soft... it still has to be considered that when discussing replacing Suban, D Pearce, Dawson et al... we really need to think about the question of "who with"?
Which is really a question for the Peel watchers, in my view.

It's all well and good to say Balic has been getting a lot of the ball lately, but is he AFL ready at this point given that he would not be going into a stable, well drilled team?
Is Collins really good enough to replace someone in our backline, or do we just want to think he is? Is Balic really good enough to just come in and replace D Pearce, or are we just hoping he is? Should we play him anyway and hope that he is not one of those who will be broken by playing him too early?

There's a very real possibility that now we've moved the journeymen on, we're now faced with the fact that we only have more journeymen to play in their stead.
Instead of Mzungu, De Boer, and Clancee, we now have Sheridan, Sutcliffe and Crozier.

And the crowd goes
\0/ \0/ \0/ \0/


Are the selection committee being too soft playing players who are never going to be anything more than role players, or are they being too soft giving in to supporters demands and playing young kids before they're ready in the hopes one or two will survive the process?
I've watched all this happening since 2012 and was fairly happy to be playing the senior players week after week. Every side in a realistic window does the same thing... and we weren't the worst at it, only the ones most villified for it. I've posted before, if you look at the numbers put into debutants etc in the last few years, Hawthorn played even less than us. Why? Because they were playing a side with a chance to make a grand final - same as we were.
When the journeymen were good enough to be getting us into top four, I was ok with it.

But now, things are different. We're not a top-four team any more. And we're not going to be one doing the same things we did in 2013-2015.
This is the time we should be rolling some dice.
Might lose, might win - but at least we'd be bloody trying for something better than finishing in the 8-14 range.

We might also have to face the possibility that we've just got a shit list. We wouldn't be the only side that's had a few problems coping with the expansion teams raping the draft for years. All that remains now is to get over that period and have a good look at what we have, instead of hiding it in the seconds every week.

 

[Big Animal]

I don't think I really understand the concept of 'AFL ready'. While it appears correctly used for newbies like logue who have a bit to learn etc, it seems also to be used often as a cover for keeping the guys who have played a number of AFL games previously, but have done next to nothing recently, have little effect even for Peel, and are running on reputation from when the team was winning and Fyfe and co were making them look good.

If you play an on-ball type role for Peel and are not dominating the game in some way or killing it in your position, then lets face facts, you won't measure up in an AFL game. Period. The guys you are playing against are inferior in many ways to the AFL players you will be playing on. It will just be that others in the Freo team will be covering for you and will hopefully make you look good or hide your efforts though it will make it harder for them to perform to their usually high levels having a net negative effect on the outcome of Freo's performance.